So? I'll be one of the first to agree that things like the Advance fix in the Raider isn't the most customer friendly thing. Because customer friendly isn't the only or even best metric to use. A company can do something that is very customer friendly and go out of business because they aren't making any money.

Customers should look for their own interest, while company accountants and product designers should look for their company's interest.

Those people exist, have jobs, and they are probably competent at what they do. So I don't see the point of customers trying to do those people's jobs. If you know what I mean.

In GW we see a company that starts paying more attention to their product designers and accountants than to their customers. And we can also see to where that is leading them to.

Do you want the same for FFG?

The point is quite simple: the sales model with the upgrade cards is not very customer friendly.

It's EXTREMELY customer friendly. If you look, then you know exactly what you're going to get, how to get it, and where.

If you want the Autothrusters card, you know you need to buy a StarViper. If you want the Sensor Jammer card, you know you need to buy a Shuttle. If you want the new TIE Advanced pilots and upgrades, you know you need to buy a Raider. You don't have to buy any of them, though. Only if you want to.

Man it is crazy how often I have the opportunity to post this. Ahem. "If you want to play casual and proxy cards, practice schemes, or use stuff that isn't out yet that is totally cool and you will love casual play. If you want to enter the competitive tournament scene then there is a price to pay. If you don't want to purchase the materials necessary to be competitive then you have made the decision not to partake in those kind of events."

That being said, the likelihood that FFG will release an updated version is slim to none. It isn't their style. The C-3PO give away at store championships is a a move out of their comfort zone but the card is also 2 years old. Old stock will sit, long term players will feel burned, and there is no reason for them to cut into their own margins. Tournaments are pay to play, at least you aren't playing 40k.

"If you don't want to purchase the materials necessary to be competitive then you have made the decision not to partake in those kind of events."

I'd argue even that is pushing it. Sure, there are optimal lists using cards drawn from numerous expansions (as shown by the Vader/Soontir/Palpatine example earlier). But there are also plenty of out-of-the-box builds which can be very competitive.

BBBBZ springs immediately to mind, but it's not the only example.

Hell, it's possible to put a lot of very good tourney lists together without worrying about optimising your list via mixing and matching.

I have to agree with the OP.

I have bought everything in order as it came out. To us it made sense that fixes for old ships came in later packs. We didn't know some ships were lacking until after months of playing with them. Specially the earlier ships. But then later packs supplemented previous ones.

However, to new players it feels really strange to be like this. Each expansion pack promises a ship with everything you need to add to your collection of X-Wing. Except it doesn't really deliver its promise if buying the TIE Advanced pack doesn't realistically give you a TIE Advanced with everything you need. The same happens with A-Wings or even TIE Interceptors. How many TIE Interceptors fly around without Push The Limit and Autothrusters? Neither of those upgrades come with the TIE Interceptor pack. Not even the Imperial aces pack comes with the Autothrusters.

A friend of mine that got started into the game lamented that if he wanted to have ONE great TIE Interceptor in his squadron he needed to buy the TIE Interceptor pack, the Imperial Aces, and then another ship from a faction he is not even remotely interested on. And he has a valid point.

I repeat, I think it felt kind of natural for all of us that started from the beginning and were buying one of each ship anyway as it came out. But newbies today find themselves overwhelmed by tens and tens of expansion packs on the shelves. They of course can proxy cards. But it doesn't feel right to have to fake game components especially compared to other board games.

I think they should make a "TIE Advanced Expansion Pack Second Edition", and the same with all other "fixed" ships, and after the original expansion packs have gone out of print and the stocks are depleting, replace the old pack with the new pack, with the "Second Edition" clearly shown on the front. Like that, both newbies and veterans would have a reason to buy the new pack, because it would bring something interesting for everyone.

I think you're confusing "Everything you need to add a ship to your collection" with "Everything you need for that ship to be competative in the current tournaments." There's a huge difference there.

It's an argument that you could expand beyond the Interceptor or Advanced. Jake Farrell usually uses cards from both the StarViper expansion (AT) as well as the Falcon/Slave-1 expansion (Veteran Instincts). Y-Wings generally need Most Wanted for the BTL-A4 upgrade, or a K-Wing for TLTs.

It's an argument that you could expand beyond the Interceptor or Advanced. Jake Farrell usually uses cards from both the StarViper expansion (AT) as well as the Falcon/Slave-1 expansion (Veteran Instincts). Y-Wings generally need Most Wanted for the BTL-A4 upgrade, or a K-Wing for TLTs.

...and it's an argument that contains an inherent falsehood; you don't need those cards; you want them. You think they might give you an edge. And they might - but so might a wide range of other combinations of ships and upgrades. Your Autothrusting Veteran Jake (who's probably sporting Push the Limit from the A-Wing expansion or Imperial Aces as well, am I right) could easily find himself dropping in the first round to Biggs Walks the Dogs.

A friend of mine that got started into the game lamented that if he wanted to have ONE great TIE Interceptor in his squadron he needed to buy the TIE Interceptor pack, the Imperial Aces, and then another ship from a faction he is not even remotely interested on. And he has a valid point.

Yes. Yes he does.

So? I'll be one of the first to agree that things like the Advance fix in the Raider isn't the most customer friendly thing. Because customer friendly isn't the only or even best metric to use. A company can do something that is very customer friendly and go out of business because they aren't making any money.

Customers should look for their own interest, while company accountants and product designers should look for their company's interest.

Those people exist, have jobs, and they are probably competent at what they do. So I don't see the point of customers trying to do those people's jobs. If you know what I mean.

In GW we see a company that starts paying more attention to their product designers and accountants than to their customers. And we can also see to where that is leading them to.

Do you want the same for FFG?

I don't see the raider as customer unfriendly- That would have been releasing only two copies of the fix with it. Again, the raider was going to have a small base ship in that. The Tie Advanced was the logical choice. So of course they put something good for it in there.

A friend of mine that got started into the game lamented that if he wanted to have ONE great TIE Interceptor in his squadron he needed to buy the TIE Interceptor pack, the Imperial Aces, and then another ship from a faction he is not even remotely interested on. And he has a valid point.

Yes. Yes he does.

In another system, he'd have had to buy $50 EDIT: $75+Core rulebook in rulebooks. It's a pity the Tie Interceptor had a number of glaring flaws on release, but there isn't any system that wouldn't have said Friend spending more money to get the fixes.

EDIT: Forgot to count a Wave II rulebook and the Core Rulebook in my price estimate.

1) FFG wants huge ships to contain cards relevant to the regular game.

Evidence: Every huge ship has contained at least a few cards that can be used outside of Epic.

I agree with this, and would add that FFG apparently wants to sell the game in such a way that it dissuades people from concentrating on one aspect. Collecting an 'army' for X-Wing is easy, so to sell more products the publisher has to convince the customer to collect more squads. To do that, each expansion contains connections to other expansions (this starts with the core set). It works both ways - you may feel that you have to buy the Raider to make your TIE Advanceds viable, but if you buy a Raider, you'll be inclined to buy some Advanceds because you already have a couple of cards that make them powerful. And there you have a new squad, that might work better with the Imperial Shuttle. But the Shuttle probably needs an Engine Upgrade, and presto, you bought yourself into Scum or Rebels.

So none lf these expansions are isolated. If they were, you'd be tempted to concentrate on your faction (or standard or epic play), because buying Scum or Rebels would add nothing to your Imperial squads. You'd just be using up resources better spent on making your Imperials more powerful.

It's a clever model. Most boardgames with many expansions - Carcassonne, Andor, Talisman, you name it - become unwieldy behemoths if you add all published stuff, so buying everything is less attractive. And most miniature games have the dilemma that limited resources are either spent on several small armies or a single big one, making the game compete with itself (which might stimulate power creep). But X-Wing is brilliant in this regard, giving the customer the impression that each expension not only adds to his existing squads, but also prepares new ones. It's all connected like the expansions of a boardgame, but increases play like the models of a miniature game.

This is a model that does not need defending on internet forums. It works fine in itself.

This is about new players and simplifying the gateway to the game.

As I said patching old product with new product is great. It updates our collections with products we are excited to buy.

Refreshing the single ship expansions would make the game easier for new players.

I think it's a waste to keep reprinting what essentially become broken products. As demand for old ships dies down I think a refresh will actually increase demand quite a bit.

I love this game and buy all of it because FFG so clearly cares about giving us a good product.

Customers should look for their own interest

I do. I think the Raider is a decent deal, it both gives me a epic ship which I want and a improvement to the Tie Advanced which I also want.

So for me the system is actually fairly friendly. But not everyone wants the Epic ship and for them it's not the best system.

But that doesn't mean the system itself is bad, it just means it doesn't work for everyone. But again what works best for the customer is not always the best way, and in some cases is the worse way to do things.

If FFG actually reached GW levels, then I'd just walk away from the game and be happy with what I have. But I can tell you this much, if that was happening, no amount of posting on this board will change anything.

This is about new players and simplifying the gateway to the game.

As I said patching old product with new product is great. It updates our collections with products we are excited to buy.

Refreshing the single ship expansions would make the game easier for new players.

I think it's a waste to keep reprinting what essentially become broken products. As demand for old ships dies down I think a refresh will actually increase demand quite a bit.

I love this game and buy all of it because FFG so clearly cares about giving us a good product.

This is a more legitimate argument, but the problem is us arguing about it is academic because it would have to go through the Mouse (I think FFG can get away with errata'ing upgrades, but changing a product's contents would definitely require an OK from Disney), and the mouse just cares about money.

1) FFG wants huge ships to contain cards relevant to the regular game.

Evidence: Every huge ship has contained at least a few cards that can be used outside of Epic.

I agree with this, and would add that FFG apparently wants to sell the game in such a way that it dissuades people from concentrating on one aspect. Collecting an 'army' for X-Wing is easy, so to sell more products the publisher has to convince the customer to collect more squads. To do that, each expansion contains connections to other expansions (this starts with the core set). It works both ways - you may feel that you have to buy the Raider to make your TIE Advanceds viable, but if you buy a Raider, you'll be inclined to buy some Advanceds because you already have a couple of cards that make them powerful. And there you have a new squad, that might work better with the Imperial Shuttle. But the Shuttle probably needs an Engine Upgrade, and presto, you bought yourself into Scum or Rebels.

So none lf these expansions are isolated. If they were, you'd be tempted to concentrate on your faction (or standard or epic play), because buying Scum or Rebels would add nothing to your Imperial squads. You'd just be using up resources better spent on making your Imperials more powerful.

It's a clever model. Most boardgames with many expansions - Carcassonne, Andor, Talisman, you name it - become unwieldy behemoths if you add all published stuff, so buying everything is less attractive. And most miniature games have the dilemma that limited resources are either spent on several small armies or a single big one, making the game compete with itself (which might stimulate power creep). But X-Wing is brilliant in this regard, giving the customer the impression that each expension not only adds to his existing squads, but also prepares new ones. It's all connected like the expansions of a boardgame, but increases play like the models of a miniature game.

This is a model that does not need defending on internet forums. It works fine in itself.

I admit that whoever designed that system deserves a raise, regardless of how high his salary already is. It has the appearance of customer friendliness, it is addictive, and it just makes it hard for those determined not to buy a particular faction to end buying something from it. And once they have that starviper, they might aswell give scum a try to make some use of it.

Brilliant.

In another system, he'd have had to buy $50 in rulebooks.

On system being really *****y does not excuse another system for being only slightly less *****y.

That's called hitting a low bar.

Also, personally, I'd much rather by a $50 rulebook and have it contain every option for any model I bought than have to buy models I don't want to get those options.

In another system, he'd have had to buy $50 in rulebooks.

On system being really *****y does not excuse another system for being only slightly less *****y.

That's called hitting a low bar.

I'd call it innovation in design. FFG's new system that has some advantages and disadvantages compared to previous wargame's models for releasing updates.

You don't like the card-based upgrade system. I get that. We all get frustrated when we don't have enough copies of the card we need (FFG, could you reprint tactician in another ship, please?). But what does FFG replace it with? The rulebook option leads to the above. Card-only expansions are out (Presumably because they're not financially viable). Free PDFs are out because FFG has to pay licensing fees to the Mouse. If you've got another way for FFG to make money while to cover the license fees and playtesting expenses while upgrading old ships, I'd love to hear it, because I've done a fair bit of thinking about it and haven't found one (Not being all that sarcastic here. If you think you've got a better system, tell people about it! Or find some capital and release your own game using the model!)

EDIT: Making post more polite.

No, it's called creating a new, innovative system that has some advantages and disadvantages compared to the old one.

It's also an opinion that I and others don't happen to share. I don't consider FFG's system to be even remotely bad, I feel I'm getting a decent value for my money.

Also, personally, I'd much rather by a $50 rulebook and have it contain every option for any model I bought than have to buy models I don't want to get those options.

Such a rulebook would cost more than $50 then. Flames of War does this to a point, and their books are quite expensive, because you don't need to buy as many models to have all the options in their system.

FFG has to make X% profit to stay in business. Changing the system isn't going to change what X is, it will at most shift the cost somewhere else, but you'll still end up paying it one way or the other.

If anyone thinks that a card only expansion would mean that the avg player would actually save money... That person is being delusional.

This is about new players and simplifying the gateway to the game.

As I said patching old product with new product is great. It updates our collections with products we are excited to buy.

Refreshing the single ship expansions would make the game easier for new players.

I think it's a waste to keep reprinting what essentially become broken products. As demand for old ships dies down I think a refresh will actually increase demand quite a bit.

I love this game and buy all of it because FFG so clearly cares about giving us a good product.

This is a more legitimate argument, but the problem is us arguing about it is academic because it would have to go through the Mouse (I think FFG can get away with errata'ing upgrades, but changing a product's contents would definitely require an OK from Disney), and the mouse just cares about money.

It's the same argument i made in the OP just stated more clearly.

I think refreshing the line is better for making money then reprinting the line. A more approachable product can easily draw more customers.

Another thing refreshing does is it keeps the total number of products lower making the game easier for stores to stock.

$50 wasn't for the complete set of rules, it was for the Wave IV and Wave VI rulebooks if FFg did a splatbook-style approach to releasing upgrades. So it'd actually be closer to $115 for three supplement books and a $40 core rulebook (Covering Wave I and the core set). I forgot two rulebooks when I made that estimate, and I apologize for that. Total cost of rulebooks for the whole line would be $215, plus the cost of an Epic supplement if you wanted to play that and another $40 for the X-wing 2nd Edition rulebook that would be released alongside the Force Unleashed core set if you had been playing prior to the new core set.

I suppose you keep the price at $60 for all the rules (The cost of a core rulebook for one of FFG's RPG lines), but that'd mean they'd be releasing new copies that obsoleted the old one each year. And we'd only get one wave of releases a year, which would be mean 6-9 months where the metagame was relatively stable followed by a huge frenzy in the few months after the annual release.

I think I'll stick with the cards, personally. If you've got a better system that's still financially viable for FFG, feel free to share it. No, seriously, It could make for an interesting discussion.

This is about new players and simplifying the gateway to the game.

As I said patching old product with new product is great. It updates our collections with products we are excited to buy.

Refreshing the single ship expansions would make the game easier for new players.

I think it's a waste to keep reprinting what essentially become broken products. As demand for old ships dies down I think a refresh will actually increase demand quite a bit.

I love this game and buy all of it because FFG so clearly cares about giving us a good product.

This is a more legitimate argument, but the problem is us arguing about it is academic because it would have to go through the Mouse (I think FFG can get away with errata'ing upgrades, but changing a product's contents would definitely require an OK from Disney), and the mouse just cares about money.

It's the same argument i made in the OP just stated more clearly.

I think refreshing the line is better for making money then reprinting the line. A more approachable product can easily draw more customers.

Another thing refreshing does is it keeps the total number of products lower making the game easier for stores to stock.

I got that. But, like I said, the problem is the Mouse. And I don't think FFG could get Disney to sign off on such a product change.

Not every miniature game has horrible business models, e.g. Malifaux which uses a similar structure of models with optional upgrade cards. Cards come with the models that can use them, and there's eventually going to be a generic upgrades deck that includes all non-character specific upgrades for a faction for like 10 pounds. Add the general rulebook that's 15 pounds and you can play a faction for very little cost.

Any other game, and malifaux for example is one with a lot of model overlap between factions and cross-hiring, would consider it nonsense to have to buy models to make another model work (even breaching factions). And the argument of "you don't need the upgrades" is nonsense when say the X-advanced upgrade in the Raider box is called a fix even by Fantasy Flight themselves. And saying "oh you can just proxy" is hardly an argument that convinces me that this is a good design. Playing a regular boardgame and having to replace half the pieces with random stuff is hardly appealing.

And that's the thing, for people with bigger budgets this doesn't matter, but if I say want to play a Tie Advanced squad and still play okay (and hey, people play good lists in casual as well.) not having the Raider upgrade is going to make the game less enjoyable for me.

=====

Even if you are defending FFG's model, there's little reason why they can't include a few more cards with each ship, or at least make the upgrades spread out a bit fairer. The Tie Advanced fix could just as easily have been released in the form of an aces pack. Things like auto-thrusters being only available on a single ship from a single faction is hardly justifiable. Alternatively, release faction starters a la Most Wanted that include a lot of essential core cards.

Not every miniature game has horrible business models, e.g. Malifaux which uses a similar structure of models with optional upgrade cards. Cards come with the models that can use them, and there's eventually going to be a generic upgrades deck that includes all non-character specific upgrades for a faction for like 10 pounds. Add the general rulebook that's 15 pounds and you can play a faction for very little cost.

Any other game, and malifaux for example is one with a lot of model overlap between factions and cross-hiring, would consider it nonsense to have to buy models to make another model work (even breaching factions). And the argument of "you don't need the upgrades" is nonsense when say the X-advanced upgrade in the Raider box is called a fix even by Fantasy Flight themselves. And saying "oh you can just proxy" is hardly an argument that convinces me that this is a good design. Playing a regular boardgame and having to replace half the pieces with random stuff is hardly appealing.

And that's the thing, for people with bigger budgets this doesn't matter, but if I say want to play a Tie Advanced squad and still play okay (and hey, people play good lists in casual as well.) not having the Raider upgrade is going to make the game less enjoyable for me.

Malifaux has 7 factions (I think. I only briefly looked at their site. I admit I don't know much about Malifaux because it died out at my FLGS ages ago). Warmahordes has 9 major factions and 8 minor factions. Their developers can afford to have factions be a lot more specialized, so of course there's a lot less overlap in upgrades. Also, wyrd-games and privateer press both own the IP their game uses, so license fees and License-owner approval aren't a problem in releasing updates.

I'm sorry, but making a bunch of research a prerequisite to purchasing is not customer friendly.

It's certainly a good idea. And it makes you a savvy shopper. But savvy and customer friendly are almost polar opposites. Something that is customer friendly is friendly to those that AREN'T savvy.

It's certainly MUCH more customer friendly than not having that information widely and freely available.

i.e. - taking another example from FFG's direct competition - random card booster packs.

there's little reason why they can't include a few more cards with each ship

Yes there is. It's called profit margin. More upgrades per package means fewer packages sold. Really shouldn't have to explain that to anyone.

The Tie Advanced fix could just as easily have been released in the form of an aces pack.

Could of, but then it would be sometime between now and Wave 8 if not later before we'd see it. Plus putting in the Raider pack does in fact make the Raider both a better deal and more attractive.

Things like auto-thrusters being only available on a single ship from a single faction is hardly justifiable.

Nonsense. Having autothrusters in the Starviper is completely justified as it's a great upgrade for that ship as well as other S&V ships. S&V had more ships that could use it, then the Imps or Reb's did when it was released.

That also assumes that it won't be released in another pack at some point, which given FFG's history is very likely. Lastly they put 2 copies in each pack, something they didn't need to do.

Again, FFG needs to make $X per wave to stay in business. The current method is how they do that. Any change to the system isn't going to change X or really how much the avg person spends, only what they spend it on.

Even if you are defending FFG's model, there's little reason why they can't include a few more cards with each ship, or at least make the upgrades spread out a bit fairer. The Tie Advanced fix could just as easily have been released in the form of an aces pack. Things like auto-thrusters being only available on a single ship from a single faction is hardly justifiable. Alternatively, release faction starters a la Most Wanted that include a lot of essential core cards.

There was going to be a small ship in the Raider. This was inevitable. Given it had to be hyperspace-capable, there weren't a lot of options. I suppose since the Phantom is roughly where it is supposed to be balance-wise, they could have released more phantom stuff with the raider. On the other hand, the Phantom is also treading a razor thin line with regards to balance, and four more unique pilots and some phantom-centric upgrades might have pushed it over the edge. Plus, I imagine phantom nerfs were in playtesting during development, so putting the phantom in the raider would have been tricky. Since the people designing the new phantom pilots wouldn't know how the ship would function upon release.

More upgrades per ship: Upgrades per expansion have been relatively constant, so we should assume this represents what is financially feasible. I suppose they could jump the prices to $17.50, $25.00, and $35-45.00 for Small, Medium, and Large blisters and include more cards, but I suspect that would make the ships seem less attractive. $14.95 is kind of a sweet spot for small ship prices- Low enough to be easily accessible, but high enough to get the quality of product FFG releases.

Fairer-spread: Fair-er how? Wave 6 had no rebel or imperial ships. Wave 7 didn't have a ship that really wanted auto-thrusters (Well, Redline sometimes uses them, but the Tie Punisher pack was already kind of full). Wave 8 is also fairly packed, upgrade wise (The two ships that can equip autothrusters in Wave 8 are small ships, which means 5 upgrades per expansion. There was no room for autothrusters in the Tie Adv. Prototype or T-70 expansions if FFG wanted to include Guidance C??? and Integrated Astromech)

Faction starters are an interesting idea. I think FFG prefers the rebels vs. Imperial starter set, probably because it's closer to their board game roots, but it's probably the best possibility. However, they'd eventually become obsolete unless you re-released them with new cards periodically (Which kind of defeats your intended purpose and requires Disney Approval). I guess you could do something like M:TG's event decks (only, you know, not terrible), but that would take up time that could be spent developing new content [since the Mouse has to approve everything.]

It's certainly MUCH more customer friendly than not having that information widely and freely available.

Granted, but I would argue that FFG doesn't even make that information widely and freely available.

It's really the wiki that does that. And FFG doesn't even run the wiki.

It's certainly MUCH more customer friendly than not having that information widely and freely available.

Granted, but I would argue that FFG doesn't even make that information widely and freely available.

It's really the wiki that does that. And FFG doesn't even run the wiki.

You have a good point there. FFG's site could stand to be a lot more informative about the contents of X-wing and Armada Expansions (You usually have at least a few upgrades unspoiled from the articles). And, unless I'm missing FFG's equivalent of M:TG's Gatherer, the LCGs are actually a lot worse off than we are.

I mean, we'd still probably be going to the wiki since fan-maintained stuff is generally better than what strapped-for-time web developers put out*, but that transparency would be nice. We should e-mail FFG customer service and ask that such a service be developed. Enough people ask for it, FFG would probably add it, since they've demonstrated they really don't care if we post images of things spoiled outside of their articles (unless the Mouse is breathing down their neck pre-Force Friday), so it wouldn't sacrifce revenue.

*See the difference between Gatherer, which has had comments and ratings broken for over a year, and Magiccards.info, which is not broken and includes every printing of a card instead of just the ones in booster packs and certain deck releases.