Yesterday I had a conversation about this. What I think is that when you kill the flagship (with Rieekan drinking tea inside) the commander is already dead so you can't trigger his ability. I am pretty sure but you know I want to be sure at all.

"When a friendly ship or friendly unique squadron is destroyed, it remains in the play area and is treated as if it was not destroyed until the end of the Status Phase."

Ships are friendly to themselves, so Rieeken's ship would be treated as not destroyed until the end of the status phase, thus Reekan himself would stay in play until such time aswell. (so if you blew up Rieeken, and then another rebel ship in the same round, both would stay in play until the end of the Status Phase, they would then both be destroyed, and any future rebel ships destroyed after that point would be destroyed immediately).

Although I definitely think that an FAQ on Rieekan is in order - and that this question should be included - I think that this is the easiest of the Rieekan questions. It seems too probable that he works on himself. It would be pretty sh*tty if he didn't.

I have no problem about "friendly". My doubt is about timing.

I have no problem about "friendly". My doubt is about timing.

The answer you have for these questions is your answer about reikan and whether his effect still works until the ship is removed.

It is not the same. With another ships all works well. But with Rieekan destroyed (and this is what happen if you kill his ship) there is a problem with timing.

I have been playing MTG for a long time. MTG has a great and complex timing but almost perfect. "When" means that the cause occur in order to the "when" clause could work. The not-working-any-more-card effect is inherent to the destroyed condition (sorry if is not the correct way to express it).

As far as I understand the rules and the timing (I could be wrong of course) I need a cause (1) in order to trigger an effect (2). The problem I think is there are no "when a ship is destroyed the cards on it has no effect anymore" even when a "when a ship is destroyed remove it..." exists. The last one is the key of the rieekan rule. There are two simultaneously actions: remove the ship and rieekan so you can choose and you obviously choose to resolve Rieekan first. But it is not the same with the cards because as I said there are no "when...destroyed...cards blablabla". It comes with the destroyed condition so...

a) a ship

1. It is destroyed (cards don't work)

2. Rieekan and removing (choose)

2.1 Rieekan cancel (1) effects (removing and useless cards)

2.2 there are no cause it is canceled

b) Flagship (with Rieekan)

1. It is destroyed (cards don't work)

2. Just removing cause Rieekan is not in play (1 canceled Rieekan card).

I have nothing against an undead Rieekan but as I understand the rules it can't be. If anyone has another interpretation of the rules or could tell me where I am wrong I will appreciate.

And yes: a faq will be necessary.

There is no reason to suspect that Rikeean doesn't apply to his own ship. There is no timing involved.

It is really poor form to come on a rules forum and never actually quote the rules that pertain to the viewpoint you are trying to advocate.

"Destroyed ships and squadrons are no longer in play.

All ship and upgrade cards belonging to destroyed ships

are inactive. All squadron cards belonging to destroyed

unique squadrons are inactive. Squadrons cards for

destroyed non-unique squadrons are inactive when the

last non-unique squadron of that type is destroyed."

Rieekan's ability tells you, directly, to treat a destroyed ship as if it were not destroyed. If you are treating a ship as not destroyed none of the effects of destruction listed above will pertain to it until the end phase.

I mean this is really as simple as it gets, you can't cherry pick which part of the destruction rules would apply to a ship/squadron with Rieekan's ability. There are no grounds to assert, as you are, that the ship would stay but it's upgrade cards would go. The upgrade cards are tied to the ship's actual destruction as much as the ship is, according to the actual rules. So if you are going to argue that a ship kept on the board by Rieekan's ability would lose it's upgrade cards then you also have to argue that it would lose its ship card as well (and all of it's stats with it) and that it is no longer in play at all. At which point Rieekan's ability serves absolutely no function.

You are inventing a timing issue that doesn't exist.

For good measure this is the specific timing Rieekan's ability would trigger in.

"When a ship is destroyed, remove it from the play area

and place it next to the matching ship card. Discard its

damage cards to the discard pile and return its tokens

and dials to the supply."

From the Effects and Timing section of the rules reference guide.

• A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

It is not the same. With another ships all works well. But with Rieekan destroyed (and this is what happen if you kill his ship) there is a problem with timing.

I have been playing MTG for a long time. MTG has a great and complex timing but almost perfect. "When" means that the cause occur in order to the "when" clause could work. The not-working-any-more-card effect is inherent to the destroyed condition (sorry if is not the correct way to express it).

As far as I understand the rules and the timing (I could be wrong of course) I need a cause (1) in order to trigger an effect (2). The problem I think is there are no "when a ship is destroyed the cards on it has no effect anymore" even when a "when a ship is destroyed remove it..." exists. The last one is the key of the rieekan rule. There are two simultaneously actions: remove the ship and rieekan so you can choose and you obviously choose to resolve Rieekan first. But it is not the same with the cards because as I said there are no "when...destroyed...cards blablabla". It comes with the destroyed condition so...

a) a ship

1. It is destroyed (cards don't work)

2. Rieekan and removing (choose)

2.1 Rieekan cancel (1) effects (removing and useless cards)

2.2 there are no cause it is canceled

b) Flagship (with Rieekan)

1. It is destroyed (cards don't work)

2. Just removing cause Rieekan is not in play (1 canceled Rieekan card).

I have nothing against an undead Rieekan but as I understand the rules it can't be. If anyone has another interpretation of the rules or could tell me where I am wrong I will appreciate.

And yes: a faq will be necessary.

Reiken and the ship he is on will have use of all its cards and abilities (including himself) until he and his ship is removed from play in the status phase.

So, if his ship takes enough damage to be destroyed in turn 3, then he triggers on himself. He and his ship can continue to function as normal throughout all of turn 3.

If another friendly ship is destroyed during turn 3, that ship is also going to trigger rieken and remain in play, fully functional until the status phase of turn 3.

When turn 4 starts, rieken is now gone and any remaining friendly ships that are destroyed will be immediately removed.

As for your comment about no rule/timing for destroyed ships/cards, please open the rules reference guide and turn to page 5. Read the section in full title destroyed ships and squadrons.

I ask for timing cause is important (I think) to know how it works. If Rieekan could be removed before he could trigger his ability the ship goes out.

If all is simultaneous Rieekan works on himself.

The thing about I am confused is the timing and the "when" stuff. I usually work with my translated guide. Sorry for not quoting rules but the spanish reference guide is what I had.

For me it would more easy if Riegan said "your destroyed ships remains in the play area until the end of the round in which they were destroyed as if they weren't be destroyed". In this way I don't need an effect that trigger Rieekan. A rule that says "when a ship is destroyed the cards on it becomes inactive" or something like that works too. It would have the same timing than Rieekan and the "same timing rule" resolves it.

But if you say that all have the same timing I believe you. Your understanding of the rules is probably better than mine.

Thanks.

Rieekan's ability does say what you wish it did, it just cuts out alot of uneeded phrasing.

Do we have to be so curt with each other? Manners make the man...

In this instance, Rieekan and the ship he is on are fully functional in all aspects until the end phase of that turn. Rieekan works on his own ship as it says "friendly" and not "another friendly" which has been discussed and clarified many times.

:-)

In this instance, Rieekan and the ship he is on are fully functional in all aspects until the end phase of that turn. Rieekan works on his own ship as it says "friendly" and not "another friendly" which has been discussed and clarified many times.

:-)

While you are correct, you are answering the wrong question.

So the confusion comes in because as soon as you destroy a ship all of the cards on that ship lose their abilities/are discarded (whatever the rulebook says, you don't get them anymore.) So the confusion is that if Rieekan's ship is destroyed, his card should be rendered immediately ineffective according to the general understanding of the rules.

I'm positive that he works on himself because otherwise that seems a bit goofy, but the question is still valid fodder for a Rieekan FAQ.

So the confusion comes in because as soon as you destroy a ship all of the cards on that ship lose their abilities/are discarded (whatever the rulebook says, you don't get them anymore.) So the confusion is that if Rieekan's ship is destroyed, his card should be rendered immediately ineffective according to the general understanding of the rules.

I'm positive that he works on himself because otherwise that seems a bit goofy, but the question is still valid fodder for a Rieekan FAQ.

The issue is people's general understanding of the rules isn't actually consistent with the rules.

That is why it is important to quote the actual rules when asking a question or asserting a viewpoint, because it seems 9 times put of 10 the issue is either a poster missing something pertinent to the subject or making implied assumptions about what the rules actually say based on thier general understanding of them.

It why some posters were adamant that the one Raider title that engages Squadrons would prevent that Raider from being attacked by those Squadrons. Because of how the rules generally function on that matter they assumed the rules actually said "Engaged Squadrons may not attack an enemy Ship" instead of what the rules actually say.

Rieekan's ability clearly prevents a Destroyed ship from leaving play, it then instructs you to treat the ship as if it were not Destroyed. I will quote again the section of the rules detailing the ramifications of a Ship being Destroyed.

"Destroyed ships and squadrons are no longer in play.

All ship and upgrade cards belonging to destroyed ships

are inactive. All squadron cards belonging to destroyed

unique squadrons are inactive. Squadrons cards for

destroyed non-unique squadrons are inactive when the

last non-unique squadron of that type is destroyed."

If a Ship is Destroyed all of the above applies to it. It is no longer in play and it's upgrade and ship cards are inactive. If a Ship is being treated as if it were not Destroyed, then none of the above applies to it. There is no reason to say that parts of that section would apply (upgrade cards inactive) while others (ship still in play and Ship Cards active) wouldn't. That would just be a inconsistent position to occupy. So if one were to assert that upgrade cards would be inactive, they would also need to assert that the ship is out of play band it's ship card is inactive. That would mean Rieekan's ability does nothing and creates a situation in which the game breaks down (a ship on the table, but not in play). Clearly that marks that interpretation as not valid.

It may end up in the FAQ, but that doesn't mean there is any real question to what's going on. There are alot of things in alot of FAQ that just boil down to reasserting what the rules always said, but that some players didn't read or in extreme cases just ignored.

So the confusion comes in because as soon as you destroy a ship all of the cards on that ship lose their abilities/are discarded (whatever the rulebook says, you don't get them anymore.) So the confusion is that if Rieekan's ship is destroyed, his card should be rendered immediately ineffective according to the general understanding of the rules.

I'm positive that he works on himself because otherwise that seems a bit goofy, but the question is still valid fodder for a Rieekan FAQ.

The issue is people's general understanding of the rules isn't actually consistent with the rules.

That is why it is important to quote the actual rules when asking a question or asserting a viewpoint, because it seems 9 times put of 10 the issue is either a poster missing something pertinent to the subject or making implied assumptions about what the rules actually say based on thier general understanding of them.

It why some posters were adamant that the one Raider title that engages Squadrons would prevent that Raider from being attacked by those Squadrons. Because of how the rules generally function on that matter they assumed the rules actually said "Engaged Squadrons may not attack an enemy Ship" instead of what the rules actually say.

Rieekan's ability clearly prevents a Destroyed ship from leaving play, it then instructs you to treat the ship as if it were not Destroyed. I will quote again the section of the rules detailing the ramifications of a Ship being Destroyed.

"Destroyed ships and squadrons are no longer in play.

All ship and upgrade cards belonging to destroyed ships

are inactive. All squadron cards belonging to destroyed

unique squadrons are inactive. Squadrons cards for

destroyed non-unique squadrons are inactive when the

last non-unique squadron of that type is destroyed."

If a Ship is Destroyed all of the above applies to it. It is no longer in play and it's upgrade and ship cards are inactive. If a Ship is being treated as if it were not Destroyed, then none of the above applies to it. There is no reason to say that parts of that section would apply (upgrade cards inactive) while others (ship still in play and Ship Cards active) wouldn't. That would just be a inconsistent position to occupy. So if one were to assert that upgrade cards would be inactive, they would also need to assert that the ship is out of play band it's ship card is inactive. That would mean Rieekan's ability does nothing and creates a situation in which the game breaks down (a ship on the table, but not in play). Clearly that marks that interpretation as not valid.

It may end up in the FAQ, but that doesn't mean there is any real question to what's going on. There are alot of things in alot of FAQ that just boil down to reasserting what the rules always said, but that some players didn't read or in extreme cases just ignored.

Indeed...

One only needs to reference the advanced projectors vs xi7 thread for a poster making implied assumptions about rules on a pair of upgrade cards based on their general understanding of them.

It why some posters were adamant that the one Raider title that engages Squadrons would prevent that Raider from being attacked by those Squadrons. Because of how the rules generally function on that matter they assumed the rules actually said "Engaged Squadrons may not attack an enemy Ship" instead of what the rules actually say.

Rieekan's ability clearly prevents a Destroyed ship from leaving play, it then instructs you to treat the ship as if it were not Destroyed. I will quote again the section of the rules detailing the ramifications of a Ship being Destroyed.

"Destroyed ships and squadrons are no longer in play.

All ship and upgrade cards belonging to destroyed ships

are inactive. All squadron cards belonging to destroyed

unique squadrons are inactive. Squadrons cards for

destroyed non-unique squadrons are inactive when the

last non-unique squadron of that type is destroyed."

If a Ship is Destroyed all of the above applies to it. It is no longer in play and it's upgrade and ship cards are inactive. If a Ship is being treated as if it were not Destroyed, then none of the above applies to it. There is no reason to say that parts of that section would apply (upgrade cards inactive) while others (ship still in play and Ship Cards active) wouldn't. That would just be a inconsistent position to occupy. So if one were to assert that upgrade cards would be inactive, they would also need to assert that the ship is out of play band it's ship card is inactive. That would mean Rieekan's ability does nothing and creates a situation in which the game breaks down (a ship on the table, but not in play). Clearly that marks that interpretation as not valid.

It may end up in the FAQ, but that doesn't mean there is any real question to what's going on. There are alot of things in alot of FAQ that just boil down to reasserting what the rules always said, but that some players didn't read or in extreme cases just ignored.

Don't be obtuse. No-one is arguing for a ship left on the table, but still in play. As you note, that dosn't work.

The question is, and remains, one of timing. Does Rieekan's ability happen before his ship is destroyed or not? If yes, then he works on himself. If not, then he is made inactive before he can use his ability. Note that the Counter keyword specificaly calls out that it persists after destruction. Rieekan doesn't. This is probrably because his ability triggers before destruction, but I haven't seen any proof.

Again, when you say "Rieekan's ability clearly prevents a Destroyed ship from leaving play, it then instructs you to treat the ship as if it were not Destroyed." you are reading and applying the text of a card that has been rendered inactive by the rules of the game. (possibly)

I strongly suspect that, like Mon Mothma, this will be a case of "well, that's obviously what we meant," but, like in that case, the written rules are ambigious.

Indeed...

One only needs to reference the advanced projectors vs xi7 thread for a poster making implied assumptions about rules on a pair of upgrade cards based on their general understanding of them.

One might also recall that the side that insisted that the other side didn't have a clue was shown to be wrong, and the side claiming that they could see the argument was shown right. Dosn't prove anything in this case, but stridency is clearly not accuracy.

If Rieekan's ship is destroyed befor his ability triggers, the same goes for all ships, and then he doesn't work at all. A destroyed ship is no longer in play and so his ability can not affect it. So either he works for his own ship or he doesn't work at all. I tend to lean toward him actualy working.

A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

There are rule effects and component effects all being in play here:

1. A ship is destroyed when it has damage cards equaling or exceeding its hull value.
2. When a ship is destroyed, remove it from the play area and place it next to the matching ship card. Discard its damage cards to the discard pile and return its tokens and dials to the supply.
3. When a friendly ship... is destroyed it is removed during the status phase. (Rieekan)

Now as per the golden rule: Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

So all that triggers and "Rieekans' Effect" being a component effect takes precedence. So you end up with in order of effect:

1. The Damage equals the Hull, the ship is destroyed
2. Rieekans' effect takes precedence and is injected here
3. The ship will be destroyed during the status phase, this will trigger the removal of cards etc.

If it were to happen any other way Rieekan could never work, he wouldn't even be able to alter the effect of a destroyed ship he isn't on. However, because of the golden rule he works on all friendly ships including his.

Do we have to be so curt with each other? Manners make the man...

Manners maketh man.

I just watched it today. It was great.

I'm unsure how I am being obtuse when in the same post you reassert the same argument that I had just expanded to it's untenable conclusion.

I'll repeat myself for the third time if I must. You can't assert that a psuedo-Destroyed ship's upgrade cards would be rendered inactive and not also assert that it ship card would be inactive and that it itself would no longer be in play. The reason that you can not make that assertion is because the section of the rules that tells us that upgrade cards on destroyed ships are inactive, also tells you that a destroyed ship's ship card is inactive in the very same sentence. The preceding sentence of that same clause also tells you the ship is not in play.

So why exactly are you suggesting that part of that clause would apply (upgrade cards) but the rest wouldn't (ship card and in play status) to a ship affected by Rieekan's ability? That isn't a defensible position as there is no reason for a player to apply part of those rules and not others

So either the whole clause applies or none of it, you can not just pick part of one sentence and discard the rest. And the reality is if the whole clause is applied to ships affected by Rieekan's ability then Rieekan's ability doesn't work and fundementally breaks the game. What that tells us is that we cannot apply that line of thought as it leads us to an impossible gamestate.

Amanal highlights the exact timing of the ability and at which point it intercedes. Rieekan's ability specifically tells us to treat a ship as if it were not destroyed, which would mean that none of the status accorded to a destroyed ship (upgrade and ship cards inactive/out of play) would apply to a ship kept on the table by Rieekan's ability.

Rieekan's triggered ability

When a friendly ship or friendly unique squadron is destroyed, it remains in the play area and is treated as if it was not destroyed until the end of the Status Phase.

When [Trigger]

A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

a friendly ship or friendly unique squadron [target]

All ships and squadrons in the same fleet are friendly to each other. All ships and squadrons in an opposing fleet are enemy ships and squadrons.

• A ship or squadron is friendly to itself and can be targeted by an effect that specifies a friendly target unless it explicitly specifies “another” ship or squadron.

is destroyed, [Timing]

When a ship has damage cards equal to its hull value, it is immediately destroyed.

A ship is destroyed when it has damage cards equaling or exceeding its hull value. A squadron is destroyed when it is reduced to zero hull points. Additionally, a ship or squadron is destroyed if a portion of its base is outside the play area.

it remains in the play area and is treated as if it was not destroyed. [effect]

[Edit: fixed an error]

Because the ship is treated as not destroyed, the following effects do not apply.

• When a ship is destroyed, remove it from the play area and place it next to the matching ship card. Discard its damage cards to the discard pile and return its tokens and dials to the supply.

• Destroyed ships and squadrons are no longer in play. All ship and upgrade cards belonging to destroyed ships are inactive. All squadron cards belonging to destroyed unique squadrons are inactive. Squadrons cards for destroyed non-unique squadrons are inactive when the last non-unique squadron of that type is destroyed.

The ship is treated as destroyed at the end of the status phase.

At the end of this phase, the first player places the round token with the next highest number to the side of the play area to indicate the number of the next round.