Back in previous Epic topic I got the impression that the capital ships were situational at best and at worst not worth their point value in fighters. Keeping in mind that the capital ships demand several points worth of upgrades to fully utilise this may very well be the case.

Here the stat cards are set up for easy side-by side comparison, so you can see for yourself the differences at a glance.

Here are the obvious pros for each ship:

The CR-90 is 10 points cheaper, has a turret main gun with the range pushed out by one, and can boost it's main gun to 5 dice by spending an energy token.

The Raider has an extra shield per section, it's main weapon arc is tucked in closer to the hull and can spend an extra 2 energy to perform an extra primary attack, and it has an extra base energy in the aft section.

The ships have their section actions reversed, and the CR-90's command crew slots are split between the fore and aft preventing total-party-kills. Side from that, the upgrade slots have the same composition, just inverted.

So what do you think?

Are the capital ships worthwhile in Epic games; and if they are, which is the most effective for the points spent on it?

A good measure is look at what you will lose if you lose a section.

For example, the raider front only keeps its hardpoint, so equipping only the one upgrade there would mean minimal losses if you lose the section.

Dice modification is an issue so make sure you focus on obtaining TL's and dice results as best as you can.

I would try to keep upgrade cards at around 30 points total. You want some upgrades, just not all slots filled if it doesn't fit your build objective.

See my write up for my input on EPIC play. I link to Hothie's CR-90 EPIC breakdown so you'll get both sides viewpoint:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187590-strategy-session-7-epic-play/?hl=%2Bstrategy+%2Bsession

In my last few epic games, I will say that they can be worth it under these conditions:

- If you factor in upgrades to increase the damage of their attacks (howlrunner, Jonus, Emperor, Jan, etc, etc). An unmodified 4 dice attack only averages 2 hits... which is underwhelming in today's meta.

- If you provide an appropriate escort of low cost fighters to disturb the enemy's advance.

If you follow these 2 rules, you're good. If not... well let's just say that I have seriously injured a Raider by round 2 and crippled it by round 3.

These things can be monsters if well supported... or a huge point sink if you don't.

A good measure is look at what you will lose if you lose a section.

For example, the raider front only keeps its hardpoint, so equipping only the one upgrade there would mean minimal losses if you lose the section.

Dice modification is an issue so make sure you focus on obtaining TL's and dice results as best as you can.

I would try to keep upgrade cards at around 30 points total. You want some upgrades, just not all slots filled if it doesn't fit your build objective.

See my write up for my input on EPIC play. I link to Hothie's CR-90 EPIC breakdown so you'll get both sides viewpoint:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187590-strategy-session-7-epic-play/?hl=%2Bstrategy+%2Bsession

Thanks for the info, the links to your and Hothie's pages were very informative.

(And clearly written, which is a wonderful bonus!)

The GR-75 is unimportant to this discussion?

The easiest way to make them effective is once we have the gozanti hits it needs to be mandatory to take epic points. I don't have the numbers (maybe it is a job for MJ if it can be done) but I think if you want to run a straight up team of just fighters that you ought to be able to buy epic points with squad points. Teams with a capital ships get a couple extra points but take the handicap of a capital ship. I think that'll keep the "I don't want to buy it but I'll whine if I'm excluded" crowd happy whilst also boosting capitals a bit and helping even out epic.

The GR-75 is unimportant to this discussion?

All capital (huge) ships are relevant to the discussion, the equivalent of the GR-75 (the Gozanti) isn't out yet so there's no direct comparison that would require card pictures.

The easiest way to make them effective is once we have the gozanti hits it needs to be mandatory to take epic points. I don't have the numbers (maybe it is a job for MJ if it can be done) but I think if you want to run a straight up team of just fighters that you ought to be able to buy epic points with squad points. Teams with a capital ships get a couple extra points but take the handicap of a capital ship. I think that'll keep the "I don't want to buy it but I'll whine if I'm excluded" crowd happy whilst also boosting capitals a bit and helping even out epic.

You think capital ships are handicap? Is it integral weaknesses or just point cost?

Probably a fair amount of both. If I build a 140pt corvette do you think you could smoke it with 100pts of fighters? Now put some fighters on your side and more on my side. It is tough to play with a corvette against an opponent without one. The GR75 is another story as cheap as it is but I don't have enough experience with it to offer personal insight. I truly believe that the point cap either needs to be raised or teams without epic points in their list need to trade squad points.

Once you learn how to fly them and what to put on them they are awesome in epic games

Tip always be aggressive

Back in previous Epic topic I got the impression that the capital ships were situational at best and at worst not worth their point value in fighters. Keeping in mind that the capital ships demand several points worth of upgrades to fully utilise this may very well be the case.

Here the stat cards are set up for easy side-by side comparison, so you can see for yourself the differences at a glance.

Here are the obvious pros for each ship:

The CR-90 is 10 points cheaper, has a turret main gun with the range pushed out by one, and can boost it's main gun to 5 dice by spending an energy token.

The Raider has an extra shield per section, it's main weapon arc is tucked in closer to the hull and can spend an extra 2 energy to perform an extra primary attack, and it has an extra base energy in the aft section.

The ships have their section actions reversed, and the CR-90's command crew slots are split between the fore and aft preventing total-party-kills. Side from that, the upgrade slots have the same composition, just inverted.

So what do you think?

Are the capital ships worthwhile in Epic games; and if they are, which is the most effective for the points spent on it?

You are not looking at the whole game mechanics. At first glance the larger radius and higher dice count seems like a good thing. However much like other dice and range increases take proton torpedo which can add a dice and make a range 3 attack work like a range two attack it still is not good because it sacrifices dice modification.

That being said huge ships also sacrifice dice modification on the simple fact that they cannot use focus tokens. So when you look at huge ship dice each one is weaker than an attack dice on small or large ships. Small or large ships has a potential of hitting 2/3rd per dice if focused up while huge ships are capped at 1/2 per dice. There for dice on small ships are 25% stronger. So when comparing 5 red dice on a huge ship that is comparable to around 3 dice from small ship, and 4 huge ship dice would be about 2 small ship dice.

In order for them to be effective you need to keep those limitation in mind. First of all you need to expand their firing range by using secondary weapons that fill the gaps that their primary weapon cannot use. So Ion Cannons on the CR-90 and STLs on the Raider as well as QLTs on both for range 1 attack. After that you are using full advantage of huge ships strentghs now you have to compensate for their weakness and that is not doing enough damage.

So For the CR-90 Han Solo <crew> makes it possible that you can spend target locks as if they were focus results. Equipping a weapons engineer will also make it so that you have 2 rerolls when you roll all blanks or 2 focuses when you roll all eyeballs.

As for the Raider the Imperials have the ability to do damage no matter what they hit through Darth Vader<crew> With SLTs you can give a critical damage up to range 5. Add in shield technician and the +1 shield recovery title to replenish the damage vader has been doing to the raider and you have infinite critical effects.

Raider vs the CR-90 favors the Raider. Double-tap is extremely lethal vs other huge ships and the secondaries benefit from Jonus. Throw Kalus on there for two points and ****...

What the Corvette has over the Raider are better titles, more access to dice mods (including Esege, which is the only way for the CR-90 to use focus tokens).

I can't wait for the Gozanti to come out. I have a hole in my kit.

I just got the red case delivered today. The Raider was our table center piece for the week while I waited for the new case to arrive.

Honestly, Epic play has taught me that CR90 gunship-style + Roark = gold. Pardon me while I shoot first......and second....... and third......

Roark is good. =)

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Okay, real life experience only: How have you seen the CR match up vs the Raider? Is it parity, or is the Raider better?

The raider gets to ram with its sacrificable front end. Gets to fly straight on.

vs

The CR gets slightly longer range. Slightly cheaper.

Roark is good. =)

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Okay, real life experience only: How have you seen the CR match up vs the Raider? Is it parity, or is the Raider better?

The raider gets to ram with its sacrificable front end. Gets to fly straight on.

vs

The CR gets slightly longer range. Slightly cheaper.

The Raider most certainly better. Range 5 isn't a factor for long and the Raider has better dial + double tap. Vader Raider is an especially good anti-cap build, if a bit risky.

Roark is good. =)

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Okay, real life experience only: How have you seen the CR match up vs the Raider? Is it parity, or is the Raider better?

The raider gets to ram with its sacrificable front end. Gets to fly straight on.

vs

The CR gets slightly longer range. Slightly cheaper.

The Raider most certainly better. Range 5 isn't a factor for long and the Raider has better dial + double tap. Vader Raider is an especially good anti-cap build, if a bit risky.

CR-90 has range and broad sides. Raider has firepower and direct shots. However if the CR-90 can get past the raider when circling around the CR-90 has a much easier time getting the raider in the aft firing arcs. The Raider has to cripple the CR-90 in the first pass or it will get destroyed.

Do you know if the Gozanti can hold defenders? Do they fit on the model?

Do you know if the Gozanti can hold defenders? Do they fit on the model?

I'd like to see them carry 4 punishers.