Just look at 3 green dice w focus or evade twice. And assume focus is spent when a result comes up.
But your correct for a singular roll. I believe you're more likely to receive focused fire and then you need to look at multiple defense rolls, but you still have only one token. This is where focus overtakes evade.
It might be still too 'easy', but it at least rewards flying spaceships well, and I think that's key to all good fixes, so it feels like it's on the right track.
The reward for the other player being able to dodge arcs is a good point; I think I'd be sold on your approach if it weren't turning Engine Upgrade into a must-have modification. I've still got some lingering concerns about the TL+focus ion-walk (but that was a consideration in my original idea too).
Is it a must have? you have Stealth Device for a 4th green with double focus, you have TIEmk2 to unlock your hard turns and push the limit, and you might have a hypothetical Defender Only "Equip a tractor beam" mod for the canon cannon loadout. 
Engine upgrade on a ship with hard turns, white Kturn, and barrel roll shouldnt be nessisary if you can predict a quadrant.
Flew a test game last night vs. Randolph's Brobots (B+C with VI, HLC, AdvS, AT, and damps on B), vs. my Vader+ATC+Predator, Vessery+LW, and 2x TIE/fo PS 1 generics. I used the rule of "At the start of combat, if the defender has an enemy ship in range and arc, you may assign this ship one focus token." for zero points.
The dice conspired against me such that literally zero of the extra focus could be spent; it was always sitting there unused at the end of the round. :/ That said, I was basically always comfortable spending the focus on offense, which might not have been the case had the other token not been there. Dice seemed to swing between hot and cold, with a lot of predator rerolling blanks into blanks, but I didn't consult lady luck, so who knows.
Game ended with B at 4hp, C at 2, and me getting tabled, but I think that I could have done a better job flying the list (but Randolph made some mistakes too, so...).
It's a nice perk to be able to check ranges at the start of combat.
Flew a test game last night vs. Randolph's Brobots (B+C with VI, HLC, AdvS, AT, and damps on B), vs. my Vader+ATC+Predator, Vessery+LW, and 2x TIE/fo PS 1 generics. I used the rule of "At the start of combat, if the defender has an enemy ship in range and arc, you may assign this ship one focus token." for zero points.
It's a nice perk to be able to check ranges at the start of combat.
Cool. Unfortunately though, I'm not sure I like this idea.
First of all, gaining a bonus focus token if there's an enemy in arc doesn't really help the generic Defenders since there will often be times when they want that extra token but enemies are out of arc. In fact, it kind of encourages veteran instincts on the named guys to make getting the focus token easier (since moving last makes it easier to keep things in arc with better knowledge of what the board will look like going into combat phase) and veteran instincts doesn't need to see more play, imo.
Second of all, the Defender doesn't necessarily need a free checking ranges ability at the start of combat----its a little bonus insight for a discerning player that should only be available on an ability that actually costs squad points to get (again imo), and since I think a defender fix shouldn't cost any points, it seems a bit out of place...
My current thinking is along the lines of a title that works similar to recon specialist, except when you declare a focus action, you gain a bonus evade token in addition to your focus token. Its action dependent, and doesn't work when stressed unfortunately, but it seems fair for zero points. Especially considering that recon spec is worth 3 pts and the Defender seems to be over-costed by about 3 points (give or take 1 perhaps) according to prevailing opinion on the forums. The reason I'm leaning towards something like that is its simple and easy to remember, and it gets to the heart of the defender's problem: not being durable enough for its point value (imo). The only downside I see with this fix is that it doesn't help Rexler use his ability, but perhaps that is a good thing since some people think it would be overpowered to allow him to get easy access to 2 focus tokens...
Keeping the enemy in arc is one of the key features of the game. It's not really any easier for generics than it is for aces, aside from the aces having (limited, in the case of Defenders) re-positional abilities. If you want to run VI+Engine to keep things in arc, well, that's fine - it's also five points, and now at least you have a dice modifying token to help out after burning your action.
The problem with a 'recon specialist' type effect is it all but locks you into that action - yes, Focus is good, but you shouldn't give out a generic title that effectively eliminates half the action bar in the process. It also won't help when bumping or performing red manoeuvres - two big considerations with the Defender, given that yes, it tends to have powerful moves - but they're predictable ones, and the ones that aren't are red...
Flew a test game last night vs. Randolph's Brobots (B+C with VI, HLC, AdvS, AT, and damps on B), vs. my Vader+ATC+Predator, Vessery+LW, and 2x TIE/fo PS 1 generics. I used the rule of "At the start of combat, if the defender has an enemy ship in range and arc, you may assign this ship one focus token." for zero points.
It's a nice perk to be able to check ranges at the start of combat.
Cool. Unfortunately though, I'm not sure I like this idea.
First of all, gaining a bonus focus token if there's an enemy in arc doesn't really help the generic Defenders since there will often be times when they want that extra token but enemies are out of arc. In fact, it kind of encourages veteran instincts on the named guys to make getting the focus token easier (since moving last makes it easier to keep things in arc with better knowledge of what the board will look like going into combat phase) and veteran instincts doesn't need to see more play, imo.
Second of all, the Defender doesn't necessarily need a free checking ranges ability at the start of combat----its a little bonus insight for a discerning player that should only be available on an ability that actually costs squad points to get (again imo), and since I think a defender fix shouldn't cost any points, it seems a bit out of place...
My current thinking is along the lines of a title that works similar to recon specialist, except when you declare a focus action, you gain a bonus evade token in addition to your focus token. Its action dependent, and doesn't work when stressed unfortunately, but it seems fair for zero points. Especially considering that recon spec is worth 3 pts and the Defender seems to be over-costed by about 3 points (give or take 1 perhaps) according to prevailing opinion on the forums. The reason I'm leaning towards something like that is its simple and easy to remember, and it gets to the heart of the defender's problem: not being durable enough for its point value (imo). The only downside I see with this fix is that it doesn't help Rexler use his ability, but perhaps that is a good thing since some people think it would be overpowered to allow him to get easy access to 2 focus tokens...
I like this bonus evade idea. Its different than what is currently available to other ships and appears to address the defenders problem of durability.
Keeping the enemy in arc is one of the key features of the game. It's not really any easier for generics than it is for aces, aside from the aces having (limited, in the case of Defenders) re-positional abilities. If you want to run VI+Engine to keep things in arc, well, that's fine - it's also five points, and now at least you have a dice modifying token to help out after burning your action.
The problem with a 'recon specialist' type effect is it all but locks you into that action - yes, Focus is good, but you shouldn't give out a generic title that effectively eliminates half the action bar in the process. It also won't help when bumping or performing red manoeuvres - two big considerations with the Defender, given that yes, it tends to have powerful moves - but they're predictable ones, and the ones that aren't are red...
Keeping things in arc is unquestionably easier when you have repositional actions and a higher PS. Veteran Instincts + native Barrel Roll is most often all a Defender needs to make it happen...
I don't think a recon-like fix changes the defender's action choices in any way. Defenders mainly grab opportunistic target locks already----that is to say, only when they are not getting shot at, or when incoming shot(s) are bad (range 3 or through a rock by a 2 attack ship, for example). In the case of Vessery, he almost never needs to get a TL as his action. Barrel Roll on the other hand is arguably the most powerful action at the defender's disposal. Being able to dodge an arc or get arc on a target is far better than a focus generally speaking. If you find yourself in a situation where you don't need to barrel roll and you are likely to get shot at, taking focus is almost always a good call. Enhancing that 'default' action offers more pros than cons.
Edited by blade_mercurialI really do feel that Defenders were already stiff enough that all-but-forcing them to use Focus every round instead of what few other tricks they had on hand would not be helping them in any sense beyond purely mathematical. It also doesn't help them with their suite of red manoeuvres nor their vulnerability to being blocked, so they'll stay as stiff as ever.
If we must give them an Evade, let them gain it, say, after being attacked. Yes, after.
That way it's up to them to stay safe, but they'll melt more stubbornly against focus fire and Gunners, at least.
Since an evade is worth more defensively than a focus, and having the option to focus+evade at the same time is generally better than focus+focus, I think that granting a free evade would be quite a bit stronger than granting free focus. That's not an argument for or against, just an observation.
Reiver: Randolph suggested similar, see: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/190824-hypothetical-if-the-defender-had-a-free-focus-and-2-points-it-would-still-be-worse-than-vader/?p=1841917
Randolph suggested an interesting idea: give the Defender a free evade after every attack, if they don't have an evade token already. That's a really interesting idea from a mechanics perspective, because it means Defenders get better the more people that shoot at them. The opponent is forced to either pile on and hope to chew through an extra N-1 evades, or leave the defender until the endgame where the 4k makes it shine. Makes it great against swarms, not so much against 2-ship.
Hard as hell to test/balance, but a really interesting idea.
When it comes to recon-specialist-like buffs, I feel pretty strongly that constraining the action chosen would be a bad call. It decreases the number of interesting choices while playing the ship, and that's boring.
Evade tokens are worth 1, taking a focus on a three agility ship is worth 1.5
Honestly I almost never take an evade, interceptors being the exception but that's only when boosting or a barrel roll isn't an option.
.75, not 1.5.
Evade tokens are worth 1, taking a focus on a three agility ship is worth 1.5
Honestly I almost never take an evade, interceptors being the exception but that's only when boosting or a barrel roll isn't an option.
I don't remember the math because it was a long time ago and I'm too lazy to search for the thread, but I recall Major Juggler doing a break down of what was mathematically superior on 3 green dice (evade OR focus), and I believe the evade was slightly better than focus, although the difference was small enough that it probably isn't that significant. 4+ green dice was definitely where the focus token pulled ahead. Unless I'm getting old and totally misremembering things (I suppose that's possible...)
how about this: Defender only title Advanced targeting computer MKII cost 3 points. while equiped ALL weapons deal an extra one point of damage.. too much???
I really do feel that Defenders were already stiff enough that all-but-forcing them to use Focus every round instead of what few other tricks they had on hand would not be helping them in any sense beyond purely mathematical. It also doesn't help them with their suite of red manoeuvres nor their vulnerability to being blocked, so they'll stay as stiff as ever.
If we must give them an Evade, let them gain it, say, after being attacked. Yes, after.
That way it's up to them to stay safe, but they'll melt more stubbornly against focus fire and Gunners, at least.
I get where you're coming from and I agree that its a bad idea to reduce breadth of choice when coming up with a fix. I don't feel that is the case with the evade+focus, but granted, we may have different playstyles and I can see how some people might not like the idea of 'buffing' the focus action.
The problem with giving evade after an attack is that it kind of encourages bad flying, at least in my opinion. I feel that when players first put a Defender on the table, one of the problems they run into is getting it focus fired on. I know this was the case for me. Its taken a long time for me to figure out how to fly a defender or two and keep it away from the brunt of the opponent's firing arcs. When its only taking one or maybe two shots a turn, its combination of green dice and 6 health make it quite sturdy, especially if it has a defensive token. But newer players who see this kind of title are going to think in order to get use out of it, they can just fly right into the teeth of the enemy formation and that the bonus evade token will save them. Now I'm not suggesting you or anyone else that has experience flying defenders does that, or even that all new players will fly like that, but it is something that could be inferred based on the nature of the ability.
Perhaps the 'best' solution for the Defender is to offer a suite of titles that helps define its role. Afterall, its a specialty elite fighter that I think in the fluff could be used in different roles, so it makes sense. There's been plenty of ideas for Defender fixes and maybe having something like 3 different titles options (so that a player can only pick one per ship).
Examples:
A mobility title (like free boost, whether adding it to action bar or after revealing a specific manoeuvre colour ala BB-8), a defensive title (like what we're discussing) and an offensive title (like the integrated ion cannon idea, or a free TL after barrel rolling, or a discount on cannon cost, etc).
how about this: Defender only title Advanced targeting computer MKII cost 3 points. while equiped ALL weapons deal an extra one point of damage.. too much???
Too much.
well the defender should be a death dealing bad A$$$.. Not a wimpy/squishy arc dodging focusing super interceptor!! lol
Free HLC for defender only?? IDK just tossing stuff out the top of my head. IMHO it should be significantly better than any other Imperial ship...
Free HLC for defender only?? IDK just tossing stuff out the top of my head. IMHO it should be significantly better than any other Imperial ship...
The Defender is overpriced by about three points (that is, everyone but Vessery is). So adding a free upgrade that's fairly balanced at 7 points would tip the scale pretty substantially in the overpowered direction.
-3 squad points for any cannon so you get free ions or discount HLC.
Why do people like you even bother posting? Do you seriously think of that as a fix?Title: TIE Defender
Every time you hit during an attack, immediately destroy that ship.
Each time you destroy a ship, move as if executing maneuver on dial and preform another attack.
It's fairly effective satire, isn't it? Reading any thread about the Defender always gives me the impression that a small but vocal minority genuinely wants GrimmyV's fix.
I think you're reading far more into those threads posts than are actually there.
Oh, I don't think so.
well the defender should be a death dealing bad A$$$.. Not a wimpy/squishy arc dodging focusing super interceptor!! lol
Alright, my previous idea got poo-poo'd, but I think I've thought of something better.
Considerations:
- A fix that takes some of the sting out of red moves
- A fix that keeps meaningful choices between actions
- A fix that improves the defender's jousting efficiency
So, how about a title that bestows an 'always on' benefit like Wired?
0 pt title: when attacking or defending you may re-roll any [eyeball] results.
I figure if wired is worth 1 pt and allows re-rolls of eyeballs when stressed, being able to re-roll eyeballs all the time would be worth about 3 points. It doesn't take away from any existing actions (you still want to TL to re-roll blanks and you still want to take focus for those guaranteed results) and it works whether the defender has bumped, been stressed or ioned or whatever.
The only difficulty is that its hard to judge the value. Is it really worth 3 points? I plan to play-test it, but I won't be able to until sometime next week or maybe next weekend...
Mechanically powerful, but thematically tricky - it's not bad, but it's also pretty much automatically making their dice worth more than other ships, and not much else.
That said, it does buff everyone else more than Vessery, so it has that going for it...
Edited by ReiverSo, how about a title that bestows an 'always on' benefit like Wired?
0 pt title: when attacking or defending you may re-roll any [eyeball] results.
I'm not sure what Elite upgrades Defenders usually like to take, but with this ability, Predator and Wired become questionable upgrades. You don't get as much out of those if you have this ability. I'm not saying whether that's good or bad. I'm just making an observation.
Assuming unfocused rolls (you're not in a situation where you've got the token, but are trying to save it but will spend it if you end up with eyeballs showing), that adds:
0.125 damage per red die, or 0.375 damage per unfocused 3-die attack. That's about one hit/crit per 3 attacks.
0.0937 evades per green die, or 0.28125 evades per unfocused 3-die defense. That's about one evade per 4 defenses.
My guess is that will average out to about 1-2 extra hitpoints worth of damage evaded by the time the ship dies. Unclear how many extra hits, because it depends on if the defender gets focus-fired first or not.
Pairs nicely with Lone Wolf, so that's cool.
Part of me would prefer to just have it be a defensive predator (only green dice, reroll any one die). That doesn't become worthless if you save the focus for defense. Math will have to wait for me to be less tired though.
Wonder what a title like this would have done for the Defender.
[something clever], title, 0 points
When revealing your dial, you may perform a free barrel action. You may perform up to two barrel roll actions each turn.
It kind of looks like a cartwheel anyway, and unlike the sharply turning Interceptor this would let it arc dodge and avoid being blocked by simply 'changing lanes'.
