Geordan and I were talking a few weeks ago about potential fixes for Defenders, and started discussing "what if Defenders just got a free focus every round? Would that be enough? Broken?"

Here are the builds we ended up considering:

Colonel Vessery (35)

vs.

Darth Vader (29)

Predator (3)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

TIE/x1 (0)

Total: 33

Assumptions:

- The Defender free focus comes from a title; something along the lines of "At the start of combat, you may assign this ship a focus token."

- We ignored stress. The situations in which the two ships stress themselves are pretty different, but I think ultimately don't matter when it comes to the big picture. No advantage.

- Both Vader and Vessery get their TL shenanigans.

So, to the comparison proper...

Offense

At ranges 2-3, with a focus:

Vader gets 2.83 hits average, with breakdown {0: 0.0, 1: 0.02, 2: 0.14, 3: 0.84}, assuming only one reroll from predator.

Vessery gets 2.81 hits average, with breakdown {0: 0.0, 1: 0.01, 2: 0.16, 3: 0.82}.

At range 1, with a focus:

Vader gets 3.68 hits average, with breakdown {0: 0.0, 1: 0.0, 2: 0.05, 3: 0.21, 4: 0.74}, assuming only one reroll from predator.

Vessery gets 3.75 hits average, with breakdown {0: 0.0, 1: 0.0, 2: 0.02, 3: 0.21, 4: 0.77}.

Those are very close (a one-action tax to activate, etc.), but the always-crit from Vader tips the scales, I think. The fact that Vessery essentially loses his pilot ability when he's the last one on the board seals it.

Advantage: Vader

Defensive Stats

Vessery has an extra shield. In a vacuum, that's a pretty big deal, but we'll come back to this below in Action Bar.

Advantage: Vessery

Action Bar

Focus+evade is almost always better on defense than focus+focus, and in the common case it's so much better than I think it offsets the Defender's extra shield.

Advantage: Vader

Action Economy

Both ships have two actions per round. Vessery has the ability to double-focus, Vader has the option to evade. TL and BR are available to both.

Vessery wouldn't be able to take EU and boost+BR the way Vader can, or BR+TL, etc. This would be a closer call if Vader didn't have evade, but he does, and so it's no contest due to the greater flexibility offered.

Advantage: Vader

Edit: Randolph points out that there's a chance that Vessery will end up with a TL left over (after rolling all hits, etc.), so Vessery's action economy ends up being slightly better in some cases. He also points out that Vader has to spend one of his own precious actions to set up ATC, while Vessery can have a mook TIE/fo target paint for him. I still think that Vader's ATC still working solo easily makes up for it.

Upgrade Slots

Vessery still has the Elite and Cannon slots free, while they both share the Missile and Modification slots.

Advantage: Vessery

Dial

This is pretty clearly the Defender. Having white 2 turns and green 1 banks is nice, but red 1 turns and the white 4k win out.

Advantage: Vessery

Final Tally

So we're left with Vessery having an extra shield, an elite and cannon slot, and a better dial as advantages over Vader. The rest of the areas we've looked at give some advantage to Vader.

I feel that Vader's evade makes it more likely that Vader will mitigate at least one extra damage over the course of the game, and likely more than one. I'm inclined to call this a wash.

It's not clear how to compare the unused elite and cannon slots. The flexibility is nice, but it's difficult to fill them without breaking 40 points, and pushing 50 isn't difficult. I am just going to assume that the ship shouldn't be paying for slots, and consider it a tie.

The dial advantage is pretty subjective too. The way I think about pricing is "how many points would I pay to swap Vader's dial for a Defender's?" Losing the white 2 turns and non-straight greens hurts, but the 4k is pretty sweet. My gut tells me that 2 points feels about right, but I could also see 3. 4 feels like too much, because I'd rather spend those 4 points on EU.

So Vader's at a 2.5 point disadvantage because of the dial, and a 3 point advantage due to PS (though I think that's incorrect, since per-point, mid-PS is worth less than PS 9). Based on that, Vessery should be Vader's 33 points, minus 3 for PS, plus 2.5 for the dial.

That means our free focus title should cost -2 points to get Vessery up to the level of being slightly worse than Vader across the board. That seems about right, since Vader's pretty strong, and Vessery's the best of the defender pilots. It would make them competitive, without being the best, and I think the different action economy and dial would mean that they'd play differently on the table.

I'm curious to know what the rest of the forum thinks. Do you agree with the individual comparisons? The conclusion? Thanks for reading!

I don't really want the ship to be cheaper, I want it to be worth the points it is at right now. A super elite fighter costing 40+ points. Like the IG-2000 ended up being.

Making it as good as Vader for similar points makes it compete with Vader. I want it to have a different role.

Giving a free focus to an ace whose ability allows him to spend a focus token to turn all his hits into crits seems like a Bad Idea.

Mirrimon has it.

The Defender is supposed to be the BEST starfighter EVER produced.

And it's certainly point-costed in that range. Trick is to find an upgrade that manages to bring it up to par, without being overwhelming for anything else.

Who knows, maybe Tractor Beam could be the thing...

I don't really want the ship to be cheaper, I want it to be worth the points it is at right now. A super elite fighter costing 40+ points. Like the IG-2000 ended up being. Making it as good as Vader for similar points makes it compete with Vader. I want it to have a different role.

You got ships with just as good of stats for far less points. The T-70 has just as much HP and to be honest the trade in the green dice for boost+autothrusters is way better than 3 agility dice.

Seriously how can it be considered less effective than a Black Sun enforcer? It has more HP, more shield coverage, what does the Star Viper have that makes it cost 1 more point? 1 extra green dice, whoopdeydo.

You need to compare baseline pilots.

Comparing Vader with Vessery isn't very representative.

IMO a great, easy fix for the Defender would be to set all its 2 and 3 speed manoeuvres to green.

0pts would do just fine, frankly. Free actions are nominally 3pts, which is roughly where they'd want to be.

That said, it's an interesting choice of upgrade - it makes Rexlar's ability powerful automatically, it helps the generics out considerably.

My one fear is the 'Vader problem' - Vessery was already pretty compeditive. Now he's fantastic. On the bright side, he's fantastic in that his action economy rivals that of Soontir - his method of fighting doesn't change one bit, but now he reliably gets that extra token for double-stack offense, and on rounds he was getting it anyway, now he's got a token on defense. It would certainly make Stealth Device tasty on him.

IMO a great, easy fix for the Defender would be to set all its 2 and 3 speed manoeuvres to green.

While hilarious, this only succeeds in making the Aces take PTL forever and ever; they end up being super-interceptor pilots, and they've no EPT generic. The rest of their ships would sit in the box, which seems a kinda janky fix.

Really, we want something that helps out all of them.

Considering that Defenders are said to be 3 to 4 points over costed, (MJ, but I can't find the quote exactly), then it makes sense that a free focus costing about 2 or 3 points, should bring the ship up to near parity.

Gaining a focus even when stressed or on a rock is pretty awesome too. Which is probably worth about another 1 point: going up to 4 points of fix. Sure.

As for Vessery vs Vader: Vessery is kind of a wash comparison, cuz if he gets free focus, then he's gonna have TL anyway. He simply gets to BR.

The generics: Having 3 6health ships with 3dice TL F. Dang. That's some accurate firepower. I like that. 90 points. Plenty of room to strap a big dong to one of them (HLC) and 3 mk2 titles.

I like it.

Makes the Defender more tanky, more dangerous, the dial not hurt it as much, opens mods and EPT's, makes ordnance better, pairs very well with Rex.

IMO a great, easy fix for the Defender would be to set all its 2 and 3 speed manoeuvres to green.

While hilarious, this only succeeds in making the Aces take PTL forever and ever; they end up being super-interceptor pilots, and they've no EPT generic. The rest of their ships would sit in the box, which seems a kinda janky fix.

Really, we want something that helps out all of them.

Agreed. Don't make the defender a super-interceptor. Not having green hard turns and having a white K-turn means it does fast slashing attacks rather than turning. That, combined with the cannon, is key to giving it a different 'feel'.

And no, free focus is a no-no as long as Rexler Brath's ability remains unchanged.

Another idea that just came to me would be a 'reverse autothruster'

When defending against enemies in your firing arc, flip a blank to an evade.

Mirrors the interceptor in a way, but is a superior jouster rather than an arc dodger.

Pfft now he can use PTL effectively with mk.ii he's always got a focus and TL anyway now all this would do is save him 3 points.

I like it.

Makes the Defender more tanky, more dangerous, the dial not hurt it as much, opens mods and EPT's, makes ordnance better, pairs very well with Rex.

This is my opinion as well. I don't think it makes Rex overpowered, because his ability is so situation specific anyway.

0pts would do just fine, frankly. Free actions are nominally 3pts, which is roughly where they'd want to be.

That said, it's an interesting choice of upgrade - it makes Rexlar's ability powerful automatically, it helps the generics out considerably.

My one fear is the 'Vader problem' - Vessery was already pretty compeditive. Now he's fantastic. On the bright side, he's fantastic in that his action economy rivals that of Soontir - his method of fighting doesn't change one bit, but now he reliably gets that extra token for double-stack offense, and on rounds he was getting it anyway, now he's got a token on defense. It would certainly make Stealth Device tasty on him.

Imperial ships in the 35+ point range have to be fantastic to not be clearly outclassed by Vader and Soontir. It takes a very specific kind of list to not benefit from swapping out Vessery for Vader (imagine the above without the free focus).

Obviously I'd use the title at 0pts, but I think that it wouldn't be OP even at -2.

And yes, the upgrade makes Brath actually pretty good. Harder to balance with just theorycrafting, though.

How about a Free Tech upgrade. Could be interesting for sure?

Title

Tie Defender Only

Superior Technology

0 Pts

Add a Free Tech Upgrade to your upgrade bar and Evade action to your action bar

Simple and makes it kinda unique. Plus I'm sure more tech will be coming beyond the 2 we have now.

How about a Free Tech upgrade. Could be interesting for sure?

Title

Tie Defender Only

Superior Technology

0 Pts

Add a Free Tech Upgrade to your upgrade bar and Evade action to your action bar

Simple and makes it kinda unique. Plus I'm sure more tech will be coming beyond the 2 we have now.

That would be nice (Vessery with evade, Juke, Comm Relay at 37pts), but my feeling is that Defenders are action-starved already, and PtL without green turns is rough.

Randolph suggested an interesting idea: give the Defender a free evade after every attack, if they don't have an evade token already. That's a really interesting idea from a mechanics perspective, because it means Defenders get better the more people that shoot at them. The opponent is forced to either pile on and hope to chew through an extra N-1 evades, or leave the defender until the endgame where the 4k makes it shine. Makes it great against swarms, not so much against 2-ship.

Hard as hell to test/balance, but a really interesting idea.

I also wouldn't want the Defender to be cheaper but instead more potent at the current cost.

Several posts have mentioned a linked ion cannon. What about this version of it?

Linked Ion Cannon

Cannon, 3 points

Tie Defender only

After performing a primary weapon attack that hits, the defender suffers 1 additional damage and receives 1 ion token.

3 X Deltas for 99 points with increased damamge and a control element.

And the title and mod slots are still open.

How about a Free Tech upgrade. Could be interesting for sure?

Title

Tie Defender Only

Superior Technology

0 Pts

Add a Free Tech Upgrade to your upgrade bar and Evade action to your action bar

Simple and makes it kinda unique. Plus I'm sure more tech will be coming beyond the 2 we have now.

I like this idea because comm relay would give the defender much more reliable defense---something I think the named and generics could benefit from equally. However, I feel that the reason FFG did not give evade to the Defender in the first place is that they want to represent it as a large, powerful but bulky starfighter, and so my feeling is that they don't want it to be able to evade. I could be wrong though, but that's how it seems to me.

I'm curious to know what the rest of the forum thinks. Do you agree with the individual comparisons? The conclusion? Thanks for reading!

I really like the free focus token, and since its not an action, its stress immune. In fact, I don't think the -2 pt discount is necessary. As a zero point title, I think its an excellent fix for the Defender. I'm tempted to play-test it and see how it does.

Some added benefits of having a free focus:

- 'immunity' to Juke and Sensor Jammer (two cards that I believe are going to be more common in the near future)

- better resistance against twin laser turrets (against 2+ attacks, an extra focus token is very useful with 3 green dice because higher chances of rolling 2+ eye balls)

- Red hard turns lose some of their sting---you still get your focus token anyway

- grabbing an early target lock is easier, knowing you have that focus too, so all defenders become better at enabling Vessery.

- Rexler loves it---in fact, it brings his own pilot ability slightly more on par with Vessery's, making the consideration on who to take more equal when you only want one (right now Vessery has an edge due to his synergy with so many ships, like TIE/FO, TIE advanced, TIE punisher, TIE phantom, etc)

There is a reason I trust the actual designers over fans.

How about a Free Tech upgrade. Could be interesting for sure?

Title

Tie Defender Only

Superior Technology

0 Pts

Add a Free Tech Upgrade to your upgrade bar and Evade action to your action bar

Simple and makes it kinda unique. Plus I'm sure more tech will be coming beyond the 2 we have now.

I like your idea the most of all those proposed so far.

I don't really want the ship to be cheaper, I want it to be worth the points it is at right now. A super elite fighter costing 40+ points. Like the IG-2000 ended up being. Making it as good as Vader for similar points makes it compete with Vader. I want it to have a different role.

Well, I think that's what the still-empty elite and cannon slot are for. Pretty easy to drop another 10 points on Vessery (or Brath, now that his ability would be useful) that Vader doesn't have the slots to match.

Getting a focus every round seems awfully powerful to me. Granted, your numbers have shown Vader to be equally powerful. The difference is that Vader is one pilot. Not all the TIE Advanced pilots get Vader's action economy. Therefore, I don't think all TIE Defenders should get Vader's level of action economy. It should be more restricted.

How about a title that gives TIE Defenders a free evade after receiving a stress token? Now you can pair that with Twin Ion Engine Mk II because you're not as afraid to take red maneuvers and you're covered defensively if you do. Also, wording it to receive an evade token after receiving a stress token instead of after performing a red maneuver let's them get an evade from Daredevil, Lightning Reflexes, debris fields, or enemy control ships.

The reason I like the evade token is because I remember these things stopping and turning on a dime in the TIE Fighter game, and then you'd blow right past them. They were just so hard to hit sometimes, especially after maneuvers that would be likened to the hard turns in this game.

Mirrimon has it.

The Defender is supposed to be the BEST starfighter EVER produced.

And it's certainly point-costed in that range. Trick is to find an upgrade that manages to bring it up to par, without being overwhelming for anything else.

Who knows, maybe Tractor Beam could be the thing...