So comments on the TIE Defender, and all the recent talk of TLT.s Y'wings, HWKS etc have gotten me thinking.

How much do we value a dial. If a ship had 4's across the board, was priced in it's mid 20s, but had a dial that would make a HWK win in a dogfight... would it be good/worth it?

I mean we got the T/D

Good stats, with MK2 fantastic dial. very expensive. Perhaps still too expensive, not used as much as it could be... should be? I dunno.

I thought this thread was about Omicron Pilot.

Omicron's are a fantastic example. Low point cost, crap dial, great stats. The Intrepid Alabaster galactic whale is a fine ship.

I think the Shuttle is a good example of how a dial impacts usefulness. 1 point cheaper than a Blue Bwing, but you don't see people running 4-Shuttle with 1 Tie lists - like you see BBBBZ.

One note about the Defender is that it doesn't have the boost on the card. I think you might see it used more if it had a boost built in.

Still - if a ship had all 4s, I think you would have it showing up on somebody's list.

I feel like the Defender gives us the best answer: even with great stats or a great dial or even both, people won't take it if they perceive it as too expensive.

I think the Shuttle is a good example of how a dial impacts usefulness. 1 point cheaper than a Blue Bwing, but you don't see people running 4-Shuttle with 1 Tie lists - like you see BBBBZ.

Nerf Herder - 100 points

Omicron Group Pilot x4

Black Squadron Pilot + Wingman

I don't think any one aspect of the ship can be evaluated in a vacuum. They are all pieces to a puzzle. The shuttle is the poster-child for this. Great stats, low cost, lousy dial so it does not get played a lot. Take the exact same ship and the primary weapon is a turret, then it becomes the hands-down best ship in the game bar none. There could be a ship that is 1, 1, 1, 1, costs 5 points, and has every maneuver in the game as a Green and I still wouldn't run it because the stat-line is so bad.

I don't think any one aspect of the ship can be evaluated in a vacuum. They are all pieces to a puzzle. The shuttle is the poster-child for this. Great stats, low cost, lousy dial so it does not get played a lot. Take the exact same ship and the primary weapon is a turret, then it becomes the hands-down best ship in the game bar none. There could be a ship that is 1, 1, 1, 1, costs 5 points, and has every maneuver in the game as a Green and I still wouldn't run it because the stat-line is so bad.

I would run a mini swarm as blockers at 20 points.

A 25 point 4/4/4/4 single arced shp might be balanced if its dial was a green 2 forward and two red 2 banks.

There could be a ship that is 1, 1, 1, 1, costs 5 points, and has every maneuver in the game as a Green and I still wouldn't run it because the stat-line is so bad.

But you have twenty of them...

There could be a ship that is 1, 1, 1, 1, costs 5 points, and has every maneuver in the game as a Green and I still wouldn't run it because the stat-line is so bad.

But you have twenty of them...

40 hit points? I'd run that.

There could be a ship that is 1, 1, 1, 1, costs 5 points, and has every maneuver in the game as a Green and I still wouldn't run it because the stat-line is so bad.

But you have twenty of them...

40 hit points? I'd run that.

And the atk:def differential means they'd do approximately sweet fa for damage.

There could be a ship that is 1, 1, 1, 1, costs 5 points, and has every maneuver in the game as a Green and I still wouldn't run it because the stat-line is so bad.

But you have twenty of them...

40 hit points? I'd run that.

And auto-lose to anyone with Assault Missiles. How could you damage anybody with 1 Attack? How can you not die with only 2 HP and 1 Agility?

I guess this kind of proves my point that stats, dial, and cost can't be evaluated independently of each other.

Somebody needs to run a Drone Swarm in Vassel and let us know how it works out. 5 Points. PS 1 with 1 Attack, 1 Agility, 1 Hull , and 1 Shield. The dial would be all 1-5 maneuvers available (no K-Turns, Sloops, or other fancy maneuvers) green. No Actions (maybe Focus). No EPT. No upgrades. That seems "worth" 5 points.

Somebody needs to run a Drone Swarm in Vassel and let us know how it works out. 5 Points. PS 1 with 1 Attack, 1 Agility, 1 Hull , and 1 Shield. The dial would be all 1-5 maneuvers available (no K-Turns, Sloops, or other fancy maneuvers) green. No Actions (maybe Focus). No EPT. No upgrades. That seems "worth" 5 points.

I think the design philosophy of the game includes all non-epic models getting focus, so I'd at least give them focus. Agreed on all other counts but would probably still allow mods since everyone gets those (not that it would help them much).

Maneuverability is a multiplier of both offense in defense.

Battlevalue from battletech addresses this in a fairly logical way

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1403/98/1403987476817.pdf

Its not perfect of course, but being able to get weapons on target while avoiding enemy fire is a big deal.

I feel like the Defender gives us the best answer: even with great stats or a great dial or even both, people won't take it if they perceive it as too expensive.

I think part of the problem is that there are a pretty narrow set of things that make a dial good or bad. And even for moderately atypical dials, the difference between the value of a good dial and the value of a bad dial is pretty small.

So let's look at the Defender. It has a great selection of maneuvers, although the 1-turn and 2-turn are red, and it has a white K-turn. It's different from most dials in the "better" direction, but it doesn't even come close to making up the difference between the ship's cost and its value.

Now let's look at the B-wing. It has a slightly smaller than usual set of maneuvers, with an almost cripplingly short K-turn and a lot of red. It's different from most dials in the "worse" direction, and I think FFG was counting on it to make the stat line and cost a little less attractive than they would be otherwise. But it's not even much of a drawback.

And finally take a look at the Lambda. It has the fewest number of available maneuvers in the game. It has the unusual and useful 0-stop maneuver, but it has a single available turn, and that turn is red. It lacks a K-turn entirely. The intention here was pretty clearly to make up for an otherwise insane cost relative to its stats, and this time it worked.

So here's my list of general things that affect a dial's quality. Note that unless you're digging into the third category, here, the maximum swing in a ship's value for having a better or worse dial than average is about a point.

Things that make dials better than average:

Green turns. These are really rare, and they allow a ship to make sudden changes in direction regardless of the previous turn's maneuver.

1-turn. This is a critically important maneuver in a knife fight, and having access to it (even if it's red) is always better than not having access to it.

Multiple ways to turn around. A ship with two K-turn options, or with S-loop or T-roll (which always come in left/right pairs), is better in a joust than a ship with just one. A ship with three options for turning around (S-loop or T-roll and K-turn) is better than a ship with just two options.

Things that make dials worse than average:

No green banks. A ship that can't shed stress with a bank maneuver is limited.

Any red turns. Making any of a ship's turns red makes it more predictable.

Things that make dials really, noticeably worse:

No white turns. A ship that can't make a 90° change in heading without taking stress is very limited.

No way to turn around. This is a huge hit for any ship without a turret, and a ship whose dial looks like this will struggle the middle game.

I think the Shuttle is a good example of how a dial impacts usefulness. 1 point cheaper than a Blue Bwing, but you don't see people running 4-Shuttle with 1 Tie lists - like you see BBBBZ.

Nerf Herder - 100 points

Omicron Group Pilot x4

Black Squadron Pilot + Wingman

I like it and would run it, but still don't expect to see this showing up in many tournament lists.

Omicron's are a fantastic example. Low point cost, crap dial, great stats. The Intrepid Alabaster galactic whale is a fine ship.

I remember how people were freaking out about the Shuttle when we first got their stats. I think only the Assault Missile Armageddon was more hilarious, especially with how it turned out.

And yet... the Defender.

Amazing starfighter stats, great dial. it's just too expensive usually.

I think the Shuttle is a good example of how a dial impacts usefulness. 1 point cheaper than a Blue Bwing, but you don't see people running 4-Shuttle with 1 Tie lists - like you see BBBBZ.

One note about the Defender is that it doesn't have the boost on the card. I think you might see it used more if it had a boost built in.

Still - if a ship had all 4s, I think you would have it showing up on somebody's list.

It is not just the dial of the shuttle but also that it is a large based ship. 4 B wings do great because their dial is so slow with 2 K-turns and 1 hard turns. Sure those are red maneuvers but it makes B-wing a close range brawler that none of the other fighters can do. For the shuttle you will need Engine Upgrade which now theoretically you could have 4 shuttles with boost for 100 points. However that will get expensive as you will need 4 shuttle packs which is ~$120 USD, and that is not including the packs for EU.

Another thing is that shuttles being a large base makes it easy to block. Unlike B-wings which can get into a furball and squeeze out of it shuttles are easily locked in.

You want to talk about the dial you have to compare it to what the dial is used for. A bad dial well look no further than MA-3 Scyk (yes it is time to pick on that little thing again). As an interceptor it's dial is fairly poor. Sure it has 6 green maneuvers and 2 K-turns but it's dial is very awful for the type of ship that it is. It has no hard green maneuvers and if you want to PTL + Engine upgrade to make it an arc dodger you find that restricting yourself to green maneuvers takes any advantage out of it. Most arc dodgers depend on action economy to be able to boost+barrel-roll out of firing arcs and you can't do that with an MA-3 because you will have to use the boost to complete a hard turn after shaking off stress from PTL. It doesn't have the hit points to do anything else and is too many points to be a filler ship when compared to TIE Fighters or Z-95 Headhunters.

Ships with "bad" dials can get away with having such a bad dial if it is built through good stats and efficient point cost. The worst dial in X-wing will have to easily be the Y-wing/Scum-wing. Only 2 green maneuvers and they are both straight. Ton of red maneuvers to include the 4 straight the 3 turns and a single K-turn. None of the banks let along hard turns are green (unless you upgrade) leaving you with a very cumbersome ship if stressed. You either go straight or you keep the stress. however it heavy stats and upgrade for a relative modest point cost now makes it one of the best ships in the game. So yeah the dial sucks but the ship is very good.

Yup it is not just the stats, the dial, or the jousting value that makes a ship. It is the combination of maneuverability, offensive and defensive capabilities and point efficiency.

The T-70 which is supposed to be worse than an E-wing cost less points and you can give it autothrusters and has just as much firepower and defense as a TIE defender. I predict you are going to find the T-70 is a unique case that breaks jousting values as a whole.

The worst dial in X-wing will have to easily be the Y-wing/Scum-wing.

Gonna respectfully disagree.

Comparing the Dials Head to Head:

STRAIGHT: Bwing/Ywing/Hwk (1-2 Green, 3 White, 4 Red); Shuttle (1-2 Green, 3 White) - SHUTTLE Worst;

BANK: Y-Wing (1-3 White); B-wing/Hwk/Shuttle (1 Green, 2 White, 3 Red) - All Ships Even.

TURN: Bwing (1 Red, 2 White) Y-Wing (2 White, 3 Red) Hwk (2 White); Shuttle (2 Red) - Shuttle Worst

KTURN: Bwing (2 red) Y-wing (4 Red); Hwk and Shuttle (NONE) Shuttle and Hwk worse

Total Maneuvers: B-wing/Y-Wing (15) Hwk (12) Shuttle (12) Shuttle and Hwk

Green Maneuvers: Ywing (2) Bwing/Hwk/Shuttle (4) Y-WING worst

Red Maneuvers: Bwing (6) Ywing (4) Hwk (3) Shuttle (5) Bwing worst

So in only 1 of 7 categories - Green Maneuvers - The Ywing proves to have a worst option.

I can also argue that without a Turret ability - The Shuttle is by far worse, especially with no Kturn ability.

40% of the Shuttle and Bwings moves are red while it's around 25% for the Ywing and Hwk.

Head to head, the Bwing and Ywing can K-turn to get behind a Shuttle or Hwk and kill them all day long.

Big bases don't stop ships like the YT1300/2400, Decimator, Firespray, or Aggressor from being useful ships - Because they have good to great dials.

In the Shuttle's case - Stats and cost are fine, but the Dial is the only thing keeping it from being a better ship.

The ability to slap a turret on a ship (or if they come with one) does a lot to mitigate a bad dial.

To me, the title of worst maneuvering ship is the Shuttle because it really only gets one pass at the dogfight and then takes FOREVER to turn around to get back in the fight. A Y-Wing or HWK can just putz around using a turret to stay relevant. Or, for the Y-Wing, actually K-Turn.

As mentioned. A turret has a lot to do with the impact of a bad dial. Ask yourself these questions...

Can it use a TLT?

Does the enemy have a TLT?

Is someone that possess a TLT anywhere less than 100m from you?

But more seriously about the Shuttle:
I have a love / hate relationship with my Shuttle. I want to play it more but I find it not worth the trouble for regular use. And no, I don't like the concept of Doom Shuttle, kamikazes are not my thing. I feel FFG went too far with the Shuttle's dial so it's mostly a pretty decoration.

Yeah, I'd run a 4/4/4/4 ship with a hyper terrible dial at 20-25 points with a wad of 6 TIE Fighters.