Quick question for everyone.

How does the Instigator title work with Grit, or the ability that does more damage to engaged squadronz? (Cant remember that ones name).

I ask because although Instigator say the squadron is treated as engaged, it does say "additional" squadrons, and "even if they are not actually engaged". So to trigger, do they have to be "actually" engaged lol? Can Han still move without being engaged or no, due to Instigator?

Seemingly, the Whole Point of Instigator being written the way it is, is to explicitly stop those thigns with Grit from getting away.

Anyone with Grit will not be able to move, and will, instead, be treated as being engaged.

Alright cool. Just wanted to make sure. I can definitely see a pair of Raiders in my future

before we go nuts on raiders, I should point out that engaging bombers is basically doing your opponent's work for him

you stick to something like Han, though...

Better that those B-Wings go for your little Raider than your ISD! Just sayin'

Better that those B-Wings go for your little Raider than your ISD! Just sayin'

Lilkly meaning the b-wing only shots once so unless there is a large number of bombers your raider should be fine.

I think the trick to engaging bombers with a Raider will be to move the Raider in once they've activated, then activate, fire, and move away again in the following turn, before they have a chance to tear the raider apart. Of course, this means that Instigator will not come into play, so you'd be better off with Impetuous.

I always saw Instigator as an escort for your bombers - surge ahead, lock down the enemy's interceptors, and leave your Rhymerball or Firesprays free rein to act unmolested.

I always saw Instigator as an escort for your bombers - surge ahead, lock down the enemy's interceptors, and leave your Rhymerball or Firesprays free rein to act unmolested.

Maybe, sure. But the obvious counter there is to position the interceptors such that if the Instigator jumps on them it gets vaporized in one activation by a non-carrier ISD or MC80 or even AFII.

What DA said. The raider is too flimsy to engage bombers, and even if he manages to down one or two B-wings over the course of a few rounds you still invested a lot more points than your enemy. Engaging interceptors or other non-bomber squadrons is the way to go for me.

So if there's 3 enemy snubs in front of the RSD, all 3 get locked or 2 only?

They all get engaged, each by two virtual squadrons.

Agreed with Fickle and DA, optimal situation is not to run a Raider against Bombers. In a mirror match, the Raider might survive a round of fire from a ball of generic TIE Bombers (so long as there aren't more than 4-5 of them), but 3+ Firesprays or B-wings are probably going to get some damage cards out of the exchange.

One solution is as DA suggested, to run the Instigator as a screen for your bombers, engaging a swarm of anti-squadron fighters only. My only reservation is that with the potency of the B-wing/Yavaris combo, the inclusion of some new bombers (Nym, in in particular, Boba also in mirror-matches), the addition of long-range activations of squadrons, and the boost to 400 points leaving room for more squadrons/carriers/squadron upgrades in general, the trend will be to see more enemy bombers--and accompanying squadron escorts--not less. If screeners go out in front, a Raider as advance interceptor could work. If the enemy goes out as one giant, intermixed blob--Rhymer + Tie Bombers/firesprays + intel ship + interceptors--then the Raider's ability to tie down just the interceptors, while remaining out of range of the bombers would be situational at best (and, with optimal maneuvering by the opponent, could be made completely impossible).

The more balanced solution would be to take full advantage of the Instigator's engagement ability by bringing along additional fighters, preferably anti-ship fighters. Adding a couple of interceptors to the Raider would give those bombers something to shoot at first (they're engaged by the Instigator, so they have to shoot squadrons if possible). Against a B-wing swarm using normal anti-squadron batteries, it will generally take two B-wings to wipe out each interceptor (1.5 damage on average rolls), or the equivalent of one standard Yavaris super-activation (and if they use the super-activation to target the interceptors, that's 4 counter dice per B-wing, assuming average rolls). Add in the cover-fire from the Raider (2 black dice, or 1.5 damage per B-wing on average), the Interceptors' own anti-squadron complement (8 blue dice for 4.0 average damage, plus one reroll from one interceptor for swarm), 2 counter dice from each interceptor (8 total, for another 4.0 average damage, if it takes 2 B-wings to down each Interceptor), and the fact that the Raider can get out of there at speed 4 when the interceptors give way, and you're looking at significant damage to a small to medium B-wing core, with little damage besides the loss of two interceptors (for a measly 22 points). The trade-off is stopping B-wings for a full turn, which could be significant with proper planning, given their slow speed. Alternatively, if they're boosted with Independence, you've gotten a round of anti-squadron fire (instead of anti-ship fire) out of the B-wings, followed by a round of no attacks at all, both of which are a win for law and order. Plus, if the enemy brings no bombers, you're just out 22 points worth of interceptors, and 4 points for Instigator. Not much lost there, for the chance of tying up Yavaris for a turn or two.

If one's goal was to destroy (or severely damage) as many bombers as possible, instead of merely tying them up, one could also add Ordnance Experts and Quad Laser Turrets to the Raider (to maximize odds at 2 damage per B-wing, and to have great odds at 1 counter-damage against any B-wings that end up shooting the Raider), or flight controllers/Howlrunner/Dengar/all to boost the interceptors to 5-6 anti-squadron and counter 3-4. That's a lot invested into improving just two squadrons, but their damage output at that point (3-4 damage against squadrons per average initial attack, 1.5-3 additional damage per swarm counter) is likely to match or outpace the damage output of the B-wings trying to destroy them.

Finally, when all else fails, Fecrid's observation is correct, I think. If B-wings must shoot something, better the small Raider (48 points) than an ISD (easily worth 3-4 times the points). At worst, the Raider buys the ISD an additional movement round (up to speed 3) away from the descending cloud. We will mourn the Raider, but in war, sometimes sacrifices must be made...

Better that those B-Wings go for your little Raider than your ISD! Just sayin'

especially since they are all dead in 2 activations(assuming 1 more damage from friendly squadron fire or a 2nd ship)

Lilkly meaning the b-wing only shots once so unless there is a large number of bombers your raider should be fine.

two B-wings under Yavaris (or 4 B-wings) are all it takes to murder a GSD in a single activation

the raider has less health and no redirects

if you're tossing it to tie up bombers, it's turned into a suicide ship

I always saw Instigator as an escort for your bombers - surge ahead, lock down the enemy's interceptors, and leave your Rhymerball or Firesprays free rein to act unmolested.

this is my guess as well

even A-wings sting like crazy, but they won't obliterate the raider like B-wings will.

if the time it buys lands some hefty black dice on an important target, then all's good (and it went even take some A-wings down with it too!)

I think we are looking at this the wrong way. It is not there to engage a whole cluster of bombers and instantly melt.

It is there to pick 2 or so out of the pack and hold them in place for a turn. Split up the ball, gain local space superiority.

And certainly, its going to slow down, or redirect, those Han Solo Shenanigans.

I think we can all agree an Instigator commander should usually avoid engaging Yavaris'd B-Wings unless he plans to move out of range before the Yavaris squadron activation. However I'm with DiabloAzul - the Raider is to be used as an offensive sweep to lock down defending interceptors and clear the way for your bomber squadrons.

I think we are looking at this the wrong way. It is not there to engage a whole cluster of bombers and instantly melt.

It is there to pick 2 or so out of the pack and hold them in place for a turn. Split up the ball, gain local space superiority.

This dosn't work. It is tricky, expecialy with a Ship, to engage only one or two squadrons. You're gonna engage the whole lot, or none.

I think we are looking at this the wrong way. It is not there to engage a whole cluster of bombers and instantly melt.

It is there to pick 2 or so out of the pack and hold them in place for a turn. Split up the ball, gain local space superiority.

This dosn't work. It is tricky, expecialy with a Ship, to engage only one or two squadrons. You're gonna engage the whole lot, or none.

If there's a huge mass of bombers, isn't it also a decent trade-off to tie them up for a turn or two with a small ship, even if you lose it, effectively denying them any chance of hurting your important heavies?

before we go nuts on raiders, I should point out that engaging bombers is basically doing your opponent's work for him

you stick to something like Han, though...

That's where I'm torn about the raider. on the one hand I want to keep those b wings off my isds, on the other hand do I really want them wailing on my ships.

before we go nuts on raiders, I should point out that engaging bombers is basically doing your opponent's work for him

you stick to something like Han, though...

That's where I'm torn about the raider. on the one hand I want to keep those b wings off my isds, on the other hand do I really want them wailing on my ships.

As has been mentioned earlier, I think the Instigator is at its best facing off solo vs. fighters rather than bombers.

If you do want to use it to tussle with bombers, however, you can always engage the middle of the bomber blob and then post up one TIE Interceptor on each end. Each Interceptor will be able to proc Swarm from the Instigator and all the bombers will be required to fight them rather than the Instigator. Before the Instigator sails away next turn, it can spray out a considerable amount of flak and hopefully cause serious damage to the bomber blob.

Whether that's worth the points investment, however, is not something I feel like addressing at the moment haha.

before we go nuts on raiders, I should point out that engaging bombers is basically doing your opponent's work for him

you stick to something like Han, though...

That's where I'm torn about the raider. on the one hand I want to keep those b wings off my isds, on the other hand do I really want them wailing on my ships.

As has been mentioned earlier, I think the Instigator is at its best facing off solo vs. fighters rather than bombers.

If you do want to use it to tussle with bombers, however, you can always engage the middle of the bomber blob and then post up one TIE Interceptor on each end. Each Interceptor will be able to proc Swarm from the Instigator and all the bombers will be required to fight them rather than the Instigator. Before the Instigator sails away next turn, it can spray out a considerable amount of flak and hopefully cause serious damage to the bomber blob.

Whether that's worth the points investment, however, is not something I feel like addressing at the moment haha.

Instigator with a couple of fighters is where it's at. It can make two Interceptors really deadly and has other uses too--put OLP on the Instigator, and you can use it for dual purposes depending on what list you're facing. That seems really powerful, having some flexibility in the points that you do spend on anti-fighter.

Instigator with a couple of fighters is where it's at. It can make two Interceptors really deadly and has other uses too--put OLP on the Instigator, and you can use it for dual purposes depending on what list you're facing. That seems really powerful, having some flexibility in the points that you do spend on anti-fighter.

Agreed. Right out of the box, the Raider is great at dealing with fighters (double blacks/black+blue anti-squadron). Upgrade it slightly (Instigator, Quad Lasers), and it's far and away better than any other anti-squadron ship in the game. Upgrade it slightly differently (Overload Pulse on a Raider II, Ordnance Experts + ACMs/APTs on a Raider I), and it's a fast disruptor with the potential to get in, wreck stuff (exhaust defense tokens? +4 damage? deal two face-up damage cards?), and get out. It can do any of these things quite well for under a 60 point investment. It can do all of these things well for just 64 points (Raider I + Ordnance Experts + Quad Lasers + ACMs + Instigator = 64 points; Raider II + Ordnance Experts + Overload + Instigator = 64 points). For under a third of your points, you could get both ships out of the deal, with room left over for an ISD II, fairly kited out, a top-tier commander (though why not stick with Screed, at that point?), and the new Demolisher monster (Glad I + Ordnance Experts + ACMs/APTs + Demolisher, maybe Engine Techs, too if you skimp a little on the ISD).

ISD II + Gunnery Team + Screed + ECMs + Leading Shots + Avenger = 169

Glad I + ordnance Experts + APTs + Engine Techs + Demolisher = 83

Raider II + Ordnance Experts + Overload Pulse = 60

Raider I + Ordnance Experts + Quad Lasers + APTs + Instigator = 62

Two TIE interceptors = 22_____________

396 points

Not a lot of meat here, but plenty of speed, four ships, and lots of potential for devastating crits (all but assured by Screed + Ordnance Experts/Leading Shots). ISD at speed 3, Demolisher at speed 3+1, two raiders at speed 4, two APT gunboats, OP + Avenger combo, gunnery teams on an ISD II, Ordnance Experts/Leading Shots + Screed for crits, two anti-squadron ships with two anti-squadron squadrons for cover. Get in, wreck stuff, obliterate stuff, go home and watch the Holo Net.