I like the fact that it could let you pick up an aptitude of your choice. It would well represents the fact that the character was trained in many ways and to be perfect in those that his subsequent evolution would be easier, dependant on what specialty he chosed.

But the mechanical impact would be great...

I dunno, to me it feels ... wrong if a Schola Progenium graduate would not leave there with the Willpower aptitude. And if you have that from Background or Role, you'd get to choose one of your own liking anyways.

Or was that meant to be in addition to a "normal" +Willpower aptitude? If so then yeah, I'd say that's too strong. PCs already start with so many Aptitudes, having another one could lead to them progressing a lot faster than the rest of the group in terms of attaining Skills and Talents. It may fit to the background, but ...

As you said earlier, the problem with the new format, is that it seems harder to put in more than one drawback.

Or any drawback ... the only idea I had in that regard was something like:

"A Schola Progenium character starts with the Jaded talent and receives a +10 bonus to Fellowship when interacting with members of Imperial adepta and the nobility, but a -20 penalty when interacting with mutants, criminals and other dregs of society."

"Jaded"? What are they doing to those kids, that they come out with the Jaded talent?

I mean:

Drill abott: "You will learn to love the Emperor and hate the xenos, even if I have to be up all night beating some sense into you!"

Pupil: " You know. Auch ! This doesn't help. Aagh ! Me to become a better. Ow ! Comissar! Ow !"

Drill abott: "Commisar? You? Don't make me laugh you filthy little heretic!"

Pupil: "And, Ow ! Why are you ow ! using a Aah ! frigging warhammer? Owowow !"

Drill abott: "Shut up and show your love and dedication to Him on Earth!"

Pupil: "Can't I take the Ludovico treatment instead?"

I can see the sense of jaded a little since it now helps with fear from natural sources, which would fit with their dedication.

Otherwise, that wouldn't be my favourite.

Yeah -- the Schola Progenium is a rather horrible environment (at least in codex fluff). The kids who end up there are subjected to mindwipes, subliminal conditioning, rigorous corporeal punishment, live fire exercises, and the deaths of their fellow classmates. I imagine they graduate with hard-wired PTSD that leaves them quite broken as a human being (by our definition), but which is also channelled into a merciless dedication to service.

As such, I considered "Jaded" appropriate. They've already seen the horrors of a battlefield in the training compounds they grew up in, so there is little they have left to fear other than failing their Emperor.

Mood piece -- grenade training from "Napola", a movie about one of Nazi Germany's elite boarding schools , which I consider somewhat comparable to 40k's Schola Progenium:

Curiously, current codex fluff mentions progena to wear black uniforms, too.

Nice scene.

I don't want to know what the poor guy that sacrificed himself would look like after that.

Saying 'it's a tough upbringing' should have Feral Worlders with Jaded too. And plenty Hive Worlders. And most Feudal Worlders.

Use your XP to buy Jaded if your Schola was super harsh. Use XP to buy Linguistics/Scholastic Lore/Logic/Infused Knowledge if it focused on more traditional education.

Eh, we're gonna have to agree to disagree about that. I think it matters profoundly whether or not you have a "normal" family unit with paternal/maternal love as well as actual spare time and something that passes for fun -- as opposed to 24/7 military drill where they pump you full of drugs and the closest thing you have to a father is the Drill Abbot who keeps bashing other kids' heads to jelly.

I don't doubt that characters from other worlds might have a terrible childhood as well, but I absolutely don't see it to be as common in the Schola. For those cases ... as you said, use your XP if your Feral/Feudal/Hive World was super harsh.

Something interesting: If you grow up on a deathworld, do you realise it is harsh? My guess is that you just accept it for what it is because you have nothing to compare it to. So you just grow up and join the guard and then find out there are worlds were kids don't learn to shoot before they can read, where there are animals that don't automatically attack and devour anything they come across and worlds where the max life expectancy isn't 23. Worlds where you can walk around without sealed armor.

Now if you get shipped off to an schola at age 7 becuz your guard parants managed to get themselves omnomnommed by the 'nids you will notice the difference in upbringing.

Man, can you imagine growing up on a death world or some hive world that's just recovering from having survived a chaos invasion only to find out the schola is worse ?

This is probably a bit to grimdark.

Feral Worlders aren't going to shirk at someone getting a head eaten by a tiger or whatever. Schola Progena are badass... but that's mostly just the Commissars. Regular Schola Progena (see: Tempestus Scions) aren't much braver than regular people.

Compare a Guard Veteran in 40K to a Tempestus Scion. Same statline. Just as susceptible to fear. Okay, Commissars are all Stubborn, Ld10 bastards, but the other Schola aren't exceptional.

Of course, I'd put the majority of Guardsmen down as braver than the average person, but still.

A dude that's been brought up on a Feral World is...

"...tempered by a hard life of living outside, fighting constantly to survive with little more than the skin on their back and the blade in their hand."

'Fighting constantly to survive' implies as much chance of Jaded as a Schola Progenium. A Progena is likely to have had an extremely harsh upbringing, but is very unlikely to have ever truly needed anything. They may have been trained to withstand hunger, but these kids would know that they wouldn't be allowed to starve. They may have watched plenty of ultra-violent vids, but they are unlikely to have watched dinosaurs eat their whole family.

Fighting constantly to survive' implies as much chance of Jaded as a Schola Progenium

I don't see how fighting plants and kicking the faces of super-tiger gets you jaded to human suffering, extreme violence, cruelty and such. Yep, violent deaths are common in such a condition, you can be jaded to people's death. But you haven't lived in a world which makes you not care at all about your friends/colleagues, even in a world that ask of you to denounce them for every mistake and transform their lives into a suffering.

Schola does. Schola learns that their life is worthless except in service to the emperor. They learn that their classmate must be detained, treated violently and with no regards to their human condition if they get to behave badly/have "impure thoughts"/are not good enough. There are elements of this on Catachan, but when you read about catachans, you know that they value comradeship, helping each other and doing what must be done for the good of their community. And if you know the background of 40k, you know that Catachan is considered one of the worst hell hole of the Imperium.

And I wouldn't see the general catachan being jaded. I would gladly give him more willpower, no trouble, but jaded? Nope.

Compare a Guard Veteran in 40K to a Tempestus Scion. Same statline. Just as susceptible to fear. Okay, Commissars are all Stubborn, Ld10 bastards, but the other Schola aren't exceptional.

Otherwise, each damned worlds of the Imperium is super badass and harsh when you read descriptions, so any characters coming from official stuff from GW should be jaded?

Tallarn are Jaded? Valhalan are Jaded? Mordian are Jaded? Catachan are Jaded?

Then why do they have the same LD stats than other characters on the tabletop.

And to end about this example: regular guardsman has 7 of ld, while a veteran/scion has 8, while a Space Marine has 9. The difference between a marine and a veteran is the same than between a veteran and a regular Joe. This means that those Scions/Veterans are quite badass and jaded.

Even more, if I remember correctly, conscripts are LD5. So between a normal dude and guardsman, there is 2 points of difference, 3 between a conscript (normal dude) and a veteran/scion.

That means a lot, when the difference between the normal humain is greater than the difference between the scion and the Astartes.

But this means principally this: table top stats do not mean a **** thing. Hell, you can kill a daemon prince with 4 hits of a laspistol.

Indeed, I'd certainly expect Jaded from the average Imperial Guard Veteran. Maybe the +1 Ld can represent ownership of this perk.

To be fair, this doesn't have to mean anything but las weapons being an underrated weapon, or daemons being overrated. I've always been of the opinion that weapons are a great equaliser in the setting, and it's quite fitting in a Grimdark way that the resilience of the fleshy soldier is less important than the gun they carry.

Guard Veterans don't have Ld 8. They have Ld 7, the same as regular, professional, Guardsmen. So do Tempestus Scions. They have 7 too. That's a trained, disciplined, soldier. Brave, but not in any way immune to the fears and horrors the galaxy presents. Inquisitors, and Commissars, with Stubborn, are better representatives of such (as are Fearless Priests).

Now, being immune to seeing human suffering could be taught, yes, but needing to fight to survive for your whole life , and therefore, I assume, seeing a ridiculous amount of death and suffering in your tribe - with extremely high infant mortalities, people getting ripped to shreds by dinosaurs, weird blood/death rituals, whatever, you're going to be less afraid of the more standard 'fearsome' things out there.

Sure, you'll be **** terrified of some unnatural daemon, since it's completely beyond your ken, but you know fine that that Tyranid might be monstrous, but, well, that T-Rex that ate your dad was, too.

I'm not saying Feral Worlds should definitely have Jaded - I'm saying that they deserve it at least as much as Schola Progena. I believe you could more feasibly give Schola Progena Proven (3) with Las weapons, due to constant training, mimicking the Proven (3) Feral Worlders get with Primitive weapons.

The Stormtroopers, yeah, okay, they'll probably buy Jaded with XP. The Commissars? Definitely. But the Adepts taken from there? I doubt it.

I'm not saying Feral Worlds should definitely have Jaded - I'm saying that they deserve it at least as much as Schola Progena

So, to some extent, you're saying that people living in the depth of amazonia should be as close to jaded as soldiers that went through the Nazi Youth (if they had the time)?

One trains you at being badass and able to survive. The other trains you at not feeling anything.

That's quite the way of a sociopath, someone jaded in my book. But your argument is coherent enough.

Guard Veterans don't have Ld 8. They have Ld 7, the same as regular, professional, Guardsmen. So do Tempestus Scions. They have 7 too. That's a trained, disciplined, soldier. Brave, but not in any way immune to the fears and horrors the galaxy presents

****, I'm pretty sure they were LD8. This either means it's been too long since I stoped playing and I forgot, or they dropped the veteran's and storm troopers' ld in the last iterations of the system (I stopped playing at 5th edition so...)

To be fair, this doesn't have to mean anything but las weapons being an underrated weapon, or daemons being overrated. I've always been of the opinion that weapons are a great equaliser in the setting, and it's quite fitting in a Grimdark way that the resilience of the fleshy soldier is less important than the gun they carry.

I do not completely share this view. If this was totaly true, we wouldn't need specific guns for specific animals we hunt (like the elephant gun and such). And since lasguns and autogun are supposed to be close to our modern day weaponry (but that's another debate) in firepower, I **** hope that a daemon, that is supposed to be unkillable by normal means, can't be killed by a musket.

Fair points there.

I was more going for 'those in the Emperor Youth, who are trained to be soldiers would very probably be Jaded, as are barbarian berserkers from Planet Conan'.

Personally, I do lean towards the Conan types being more Jaded, but I'm coming from a position where I look at privileged individuals who have gone through the best schools, yes, and, yes, they're damned good at what they do, and yes, school was hellishly tough...

But these are not people who have lived a life of fear. Yes, they would have been afraid of their Drill Abbot or whatever, and the beatings that came with it, but they were, by and large, safe. They weren't afraid of dengue fever or malaria. They weren't afraid of starving to death. They weren't afraid of the monster-lizard-things over the next rise, they weren't afraid of the jungle itself, they weren't afraid of volcanoes...

The Feral Worlders, in my mind, have had it tough. This, admittedly, probably doesn't make them Jaded (I can see flamers or tanks or spaceships scaring them, or awing them, or whatever)- I think that requires more travel (as the talent description implies), but, on the other hand, brainwashing might make you good at following orders, and pretty damned cold, but no Schola Progena has truly been at risk of losing his or her life until they get their first missions (or maybe grav-chute or plasma training). They might have had the most brutal education going - but it's still safer than all of the other Homeworld options.

That all being said, looking at historical examples of the Hitler Youth SS regiments that were raised - they weren't the most capable of soldiers (being too young), but they were certainly brave, and willing to execute POWs and similar. That could be 'Jaded'.

But, again, those are the ones who ended up in the military - e very male in Germany had to be a member of the Hitler Youth. I severely doubt that we'd consider everyone in 1950s Germany 'Jaded', by the book's definition. Certainly, the ones who were conscripted, and saw combat, yeah, but the ones who, instead, farmed, or even made ammunition? I don't think so.

I think a better way to represent the Jaded, fanatical soldier already exists. Homeworld (Any) > Imperial Guard > Fanatic (As seen in Enemies Within). By taking Leadership as the Imperial Guard Aptitude, you can then switch it out for Ballistic Skill because Fanatic has Leadership. Done. Shrine World > Imperial Guard > Fanatic : The Imperium's Hitlerjugend SS.

Oh, ****. I'm inadvertantly statting up Nazi child soldiers. Urgh.

That all being said, looking at historical examples of the Hitler Youth SS regiments that were raised - they weren't the most capable of soldiers (being too young), but they were certainly brave, and willing to execute POWs and similar. That could be 'Jaded'.

But, again, those are the ones who ended up in the military - e very male in Germany had to be a member of the Hitler Youth. I severely doubt that we'd consider everyone in 1950s Germany 'Jaded', by the book's definition. Certainly, the ones who were conscripted, and saw combat, yeah, but the ones who, instead, farmed, or even made ammunition? I don't think so.

Fair points.

It depends on how you view the schola, at this level. My vision is closer to yours than Lynata's, but in Lynata's, they definitely could get jaded. Because I understand them to be brainwashed, beaten to death, brought through live fire exercise, do or die exercices and exam and such.

Guard Veterans don't have Ld 8. They have Ld 7, the same as regular, professional, Guardsmen.

Huh, could've sworn they were Ld8 as well, same as the Inquisitor. Upon re-reading the books, I guess this misconception came to be because normal Sergeants used to be Ld7, whereas Veterean Sergeants got Ld8. But since 5th edition, normal Sergeants got Ld8 too. Oh well.

I think our difference is rooted in our different focuses. You are looking primarily at accidents whereas I'm looking at culture . Death and suffering are terrible things for sure, but their impact can be softened by a family that cares for you, which would exist on most Feral and Feudal worlds as well.

There will most definitely be cases where a tribe propagates a "hardening" of their people by Sparta-style agoge or the weird rituals you mention, but like I said, I'd treat those as exceptions where the purchase of Jaded with XP makes sense.

I do not completely share this view. If this was totaly true, we wouldn't need specific guns for specific animals we hunt (like the elephant gun and such). And since lasguns and autogun are supposed to be close to our modern day weaponry (but that's another debate) in firepower, I **** hope that a daemon, that is supposed to be unkillable by normal means, can't be killed by a musket.

I don't think lasguns are supposed to correspond to modern day weapons. As per codex fluff, they literally blow chunks out of your body or the armour you wear, which is much more powerful than a 21st century assault rifle, let alone a musket.

Also, even elephants have weak spots. As a species, we have been hunting them long before we invented black powder.

but, on the other hand, brainwashing might make you good at following orders, and pretty damned cold, but no Schola Progena has truly been at risk of losing his or her life until they get their first missions (or maybe grav-chute or plasma training). They might have had the most brutal education going - but it's still safer than all of the other Homeworld options.

If I had to choose, I'd probably rather take my chances with a village on Catachan.

Also note that the Hitler Youth was relatively tame compared to Napola education. One was essentially a radicalised Boy Scouts that did military games and camping trips after school for any racially pure male child, the other was a much more elite institution for select boys and girls with 24/7 barracking and harsh training that frequently resulted in serious injuries.

I greatly recommend the aforementioned movie (based on the accounts of 11 actual former Napola cadets) to get an idea for the mood which I suspect is present or rather even worse in the average Imperial Schola Progenium!

It depends on how you view the schola, at this level. My vision is closer to yours than Lynata's, but in Lynata's, they definitely could get jaded. Because I understand them to be brainwashed, beaten to death, brought through live fire exercise, do or die exercices and exam and such.

This is also a good point. The Schola Progenium has been presented in different ways depending on which source you're looking at - the codex version seems notably different from certain novels - so that different perspectives could merely be a result of which interpretation of the setting one "subscribes" to.

Very good points. I agree that we may be looking at this from a different perspective, in that some of us thinks one upbringing is more brutal than another. I don't see the point in debating this, as I think we're getting into a debate between two opinions which are, very likely, equally valid.

So, how about this instead of Jaded:

Imperial Conditioning

A character with Imperial Conditioning counts as having Fear (1) for the purpose of the Terrify use of the Command skill. If he already has Fear, it increases by one.

When another character attempts to use the Terrify use of the Command skill on a character with Imperial Conditioning, that character counts as having Fear (1), or increases their existing Fear rating by one.

For example, Commissar Smirnoff has Imperial Conditioning. When he attempts to use Command to Terrify his followers, he adds +10 to his Command check against the Willpower of the Fear-causing creature, due to his Fear rating of 1.

Likewise, when Inquisitor Stolichnaya, a Highborn Inquisitor, uses Terrify on Commissar Smirnoff, Inquisitor Stolichnaya adds +10 to his Command check, due to Commissar Smirnoff being more susceptible to such, thanks to his Imperial Conditioning.

If Commissar Smirnoff was to use Terrify on Tempestus Prime Beluga, also a Schola Progena, he would add +20 to his Command check, due to both having Imperial Conditioning.

Another, simpler, option is as follows:

Imperial Conditioning

The character may re-roll failed Fear and Pinning checks.

Personally, I like the 2nd option! It's shorter and more in line with the existing perks (similar to the Arbites one) -- plus, the first one has the potential issue of applying to any other character, and I don't think a Schola graduate should be easily intimidated by random scum. This could be resolved by adding further conditions (such as the bonus for the "attacker" only applying if they are of superior rank), but it'd make the description even longer.

I would have liked the synergy of the perk when two Schola graduates attempt to challenge each other, though. Albeit it coming down to a weird "who shouts first" situation in such cases. Perhaps, just in theory, the +20 bonus should always go to whoever has the higher Fellowship bonus as the two characters engage in a quick intimidation game reminiscent of their time in the Schola to determine who gets to be the senpai.

I prefer the second too, because it's simpler. It, indirectly, makes them better leaders too, as they're more likely to pass their Fear check, and then get the chance to Terrify their pals.

Okay, so, Schola Progena:

Statistics

+ Willpower, +Influence, - Perception

Fate Threshold

4 (Emperor's Blessing 9+)

Home World Bonus

Imperial Conditioning: The character may re-roll failed Fear and Pinning checks.

Home World Aptitude

Willpower

Wounds

Schola Progena start with 8 + 1d5 Wounds.

Recommended Backgrounds

Adeptus Administratum, Adeptus Arbites, Adepta Sororitas, Imperial Guard

I'd be tempted to switch out Influence for Ballistic Skill or something, but I think that's decent.