I also tend to put a lot of money on Intangibles, and Rieekan is one of those things... Yes, you may not get to use his effect throughout a game, and you may consider that wasted points in a purely mathematical standpoint.

But factor in what his potential will do to an opponent..

You're paying points in Psychological Warfare. Now you may have an opponent who is starting to second guess moves, because he might be looking at Suicidal Ships gunning right for him. With the way we plan orders at the start of the game, that may mean a three turn consideration for your opponent.

Those are worth points to me. An ability that makes my opponent sweat. Or at least take thoughts away from one path to defeating me.

If none of you ships die, those points are wasted!

I don't see the problem, none of your ships died, good grief Charlie Brown.

The problem is, Reikan didn't help you, those points were wasted.

man I've heard of glass half empty but man....

Rieekan I actually feel lends himself well to a squadron build. Unlike with ships, you can expect to lose a few squadrons and still win. Getting that extra punch in before they are done could be all the difference. He also covers Yavaris' main weakness: getting one shot by the Demolisher without being able to respond. Yes, losing Yavaris is not what you want, but you have to plan for the eventuality, especially with the Demolisher. Now that Demolisher has to think twice if he really wants to put himself in range of 2 double tapping B-Wings and a double tapping Keyan. He may get the kill, but he probably isn't getting out alive.

I'm going to try Rieekan in a swarm of bees list. I'm forgoing escorts and grabbing 5x B-Wings, Keyan, and 2x HWK-290s. Why bother with an escort when you're going to get to shoot back and move off (yay intel!) regardless of what the enemy squadrons do for at least the first exchange? Might as well get more beautiful B-Wing firepower.

Remember he only works off of unique squads

Tycho engaging a bomber blob for a whole round even if he pops is hilarious to imagine, though

If none of you ships die, those points are wasted!

I don't see the problem, none of your ships died, good grief Charlie Brown.

The problem is, Reikan didn't help you, those points were wasted.

man I've heard of glass half empty but man....

Well I lost a Sullust game where I didn't loose a single ship. So the idea that if you haven't lost a ship, you must be winning, is clearly flawed!

I think if we want to have this discussion, we need to lay down some ground rules:

1. Points comparisons must take into account the fact that one MUST take a commander; saying Ackbar is worth 4 enhanced armaments is not true, given that you have to replace him with, at the cheapest, Dodonna. So your net move is +18, not +38.
2. We should assume people build fleets that play to the strengths of their commanders; it's not like you are randomly dealt one at the start of the game. Thus, if I know I am taking Garm, I'm not going to take a CR90 swarm.
3. Given these two binding assumptions, we should then talk about which commanders are strong (as in, it's not just them, it's what can you build around them).

So without expressing some of my strong opinions yet, my starting point is that we need to have a real discussion about how this happens, as talking purely in a vacuum leads people to over or under-estimate the impact of effects.

Also, a personal pet peeve: if you are going to talk about Dodonna, I want to see someone do the actual math of what a show 4 / choose 1 draw from the damage deck, given that crits are already occurring, actually does for the damage output of a fleet.

I guess that Dodonna's effect is too random to quantify. I now await a maths brainiac prove that it can be quantified.

I think if we want to have this discussion, we need to lay down some ground rules:

1. Points comparisons must take into account the fact that one MUST take a commander; saying Ackbar is worth 4 enhanced armaments is not true, given that you have to replace him with, at the cheapest, Dodonna. So your net move is +18, not +38.
2. We should assume people build fleets that play to the strengths of their commanders; it's not like you are randomly dealt one at the start of the game. Thus, if I know I am taking Garm, I'm not going to take a CR90 swarm.
3. Given these two binding assumptions, we should then talk about which commanders are strong (as in, it's not just them, it's what can you build around them).

So without expressing some of my strong opinions yet, my starting point is that we need to have a real discussion about how this happens, as talking purely in a vaccuum leads people to over or under-estimate the impact of effects.

Also, a personal pet peeve: if you are going to talk about Dodonna, I want to see someone do the actual math of what a show 4 / choose 1 draw from the damage deck, given that crits are already occurring, actually does for the damage output of a fleet.

Last time I played vs. Dodonna he shut down the long-range firepower of my Vic one with a single shot from Dodonna's Pride. He sure felt worth his 20 points then...and it got worse as the game progressed

Remember he only works off of unique squads

Tycho engaging a bomber blob for a whole round even if he pops is hilarious to imagine, though

GAH! How the hell did I miss that. Back to the drawing board...

Remember he only works off of unique squads

Tycho engaging a bomber blob for a whole round even if he pops is hilarious to imagine, though

GAH! How the hell did I miss that. Back the drawing board...

The real key is keeping Yavaris alive. If the other guy goes first with a GSD and kills it, you still get to double-tap the B-wings to kill it back. It makes Yavaris into a near guaranteed 1:1 trade, at worst, in that sense.

I think if we want to have this discussion, we need to lay down some ground rules:

1. Points comparisons must take into account the fact that one MUST take a commander; saying Ackbar is worth 4 enhanced armaments is not true, given that you have to replace him with, at the cheapest, Dodonna. So your net move is +18, not +38.
2. We should assume people build fleets that play to the strengths of their commanders; it's not like you are randomly dealt one at the start of the game. Thus, if I know I am taking Garm, I'm not going to take a CR90 swarm.
3. Given these two binding assumptions, we should then talk about which commanders are strong (as in, it's not just them, it's what can you build around them).

So without expressing some of my strong opinions yet, my starting point is that we need to have a real discussion about how this happens, as talking purely in a vaccuum leads people to over or under-estimate the impact of effects.

Also, a personal pet peeve: if you are going to talk about Dodonna, I want to see someone do the actual math of what a show 4 / choose 1 draw from the damage deck, given that crits are already occurring, actually does for the damage output of a fleet.

Last time I played vs. Dodonna he shut down the long-range firepower of my Vic one with a single shot from Dodonna's Pride. He sure felt worth his 20 points then...and it got worse as the game progressed

The plural of anecdote is not data.

I don't disagree that Dodonna can be good (I think, when he is good, he is really good). My point is more that he is the kind of card where people will over-remember the good (crippling a VSD) while forgetting the bad (games where he does basically nothing), and because the guys who give incremental consistent effects are less noticed, people forget that Garm is worth 2 shield + 2 CF tokens + 2 nav tokens x 3 in a triple AFII fleet (which makes him, in many ways, a significantly better version of Motti in that build).

Which is why I am saying someone should do the math on the real impact. It's not "too random", it's just blocky because you have to assign some kind of value to every damage card, and that value is sometimes context dependent. However, I suspect what falls out is that Dodonna is a lot less "impactful" than a commander who simply adds 1+ damage per shot (Screed, Ackbar) consitently, even if the second effect is seen as more marginal and people tend to undervalue it as a result.

There will always be the rare case where you get to pick the exact right crit, but given that you only increase the span of cards you see by 3, and that often you will get 4 cards without the "ideal", and given that you can only trigger it by already dealing crits (which means you are doing well) to begin with... let's just say I'm not a Dodonna fan even though I understand why the human brain would trick people into thinking he is good.

I nearly always use Dodonna. Combination of his ability being very useful as well as fun to do, and that he is the cheapest and i am usually struggling for points.

Each of the Admirals has their place in some fleet or another. So I would look at trying to figure out when and why. Even more so with 5 choices per faction.

It also depends on each players play style.

Once again, we're at a situation which breaks apart experimental protocol.

I'm sure you will be able to experiment and draw up hypothesis in these situations, but remember my previous core advice - Define your Variables!

The less it is spitballing in the dark, the less anecdotal it is, the less I'm Right it is, the more scientific it will be... That is the gateway to truth.

I am sure that FFG has priced them appropriately based on their fomulae, based on their abilities and capabilities and the mathematical odds of something turning out...

I think if we want to have this discussion, we need to lay down some ground rules:

1. Points comparisons must take into account the fact that one MUST take a commander; saying Ackbar is worth 4 enhanced armaments is not true, given that you have to replace him with, at the cheapest, Dodonna. So your net move is +18, not +38.
2. We should assume people build fleets that play to the strengths of their commanders; it's not like you are randomly dealt one at the start of the game. Thus, if I know I am taking Garm, I'm not going to take a CR90 swarm.
3. Given these two binding assumptions, we should then talk about which commanders are strong (as in, it's not just them, it's what can you build around them).

So without expressing some of my strong opinions yet, my starting point is that we need to have a real discussion about how this happens, as talking purely in a vacuum leads people to over or under-estimate the impact of effects.

Also, a personal pet peeve: if you are going to talk about Dodonna, I want to see someone do the actual math of what a show 4 / choose 1 draw from the damage deck, given that crits are already occurring, actually does for the damage output of a fleet.

I think this is a good starting point.

My main counter-point is that putting an actual mathematical value on Dodonna's ability is nearly impossible (see bolded section). Sure you can always go fishing for the crit that provides 2 damage, but in other cases you can benefit from applying different crit effects, such as dropping shields, removing command dials, making speed changes cause damage, etc. The "best" crit is circumstancial, still guided somewhat by luck (as you only get to choose from the 4 available), and furthermore triggered by crits (in most cases), which are unreliable. It can be a really amazing ability or a generally useless ability. Sure you can (and should) build your list to try to make the most of it (by making crits proc more reliably wherever possible), but it's still effectively a rollercoaster of effectiveness due to the number of variables and not really suited towards a player who must have mathematical averages on how good it will be.

Remember he only works off of unique squads

Tycho engaging a bomber blob for a whole round even if he pops is hilarious to imagine, though

Double Tapping Nym and Keyan?

or if you took Dodonna and your dead ship could have ruined a high priority target if it had zombified for that last all important shot, or if its corpse just remained on the table and cutting off escape...

unfortunately, in a vacuum there is no real way to direct compare value like this. Riekann is going to completely change your playstyle and your opponent's. If a game with him could come out even remotely similar to a game where you used Dodonna instead, then you have used Riekann incorrectly

if playing aggressively because of Riekann's ability somehow results in you not losing a single ship, then Riekann still won you the game despite having never triggered once

FGD's bold is pretty much how I stand. I've stated before: that I'm fine with my VSD1 not firing its black dice once in a game if the area denial forced my opponent to avoid it and get killed via the rest of my fleet. It indirectly effected the game; and, thus, was worth the points.

Riekann will be that general analog more than any; especially, as people have said, if it deters gladiator (and MC30) dives.

If none of you ships die, those points are wasted!

I don't see the problem, none of your ships died, good grief Charlie Brown.

The problem is, Reikan didn't help you, those points were wasted.

man I've heard of glass half empty but man....

Science says the glass is full, liquid to here and air to the top. It is always full.

From my Wave 1 400 point battles I would believe that you are rarely going to end up unscathed. More so with the Wave 2 ships in play.

This discussion started as a question of what the top two Admirals are. The answer, and I hope I am not putting words into too many mouths, is that each Admiral has a use. Most have a theme they work with and these were then being discussed.

Now I understand Daft Blazers' point, all I would do is put a disclaimer on his thought. If you pick the right Admiral for you theme and don't use his ability that is good, odds are everything worked fine. If you pick the wrong Admiral for your theme and then don't use its ability then perhaps it is wasted points, but perhaps not for any other reason than the poor choice of Admiral.

I have played a couple of games with Ackbar now and he is crazy good. Especially against Imperial players. They are so used to charging straight ahead at the rebels and dictating who goes where. Do this against Ackbar and you get punished so incredibly hard. Also if you see a rebel list with Ackbar an MC80 and Advanced Gunnery NEVER TAKE IT. I don't care what list you have.

"It's a carefully calculated ruse!!!"

You can't have gunnery teams on an MC80 because it is broken. Don't give it to your opponent.

Just in case someone following this thread missed my companion thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/190739-analyzing-dodonna-group-project/

It's a group assessment of Dodonna

I agree with the "rarely" ever unscathed concept. I find that against higher skilled players things will get destroyed. Which is bad for me because I HATE losing ships!