In the wave 8 Guri discussion thread, it was posited that Guri is a poor candidate for Push the limit since the starviper only has access to green one banks and straights up to speed 3. However, this is the exact same as the T-70, and everyone has proclaimed the brilliance of Push the limit there.

So I ask, what is the difference?

BB-8.

Next question.

BB-8.

Next question.

Hang on, the thread I'm referencing has an action chain very similar to the BB-8 combo. The only true difference is the fragility of the cloaking device.

So I ask again, what is the difference. Why is one a near auto include, and the other not worth mentioning?

Durability and pilot skill. If you gave Guri another shield and ps 8 she would be a monster.

There are two factors I think:

1) T-70s can take the R2 Astromech, which takes them from 5 green maneuvers to 9

2) Poe with BB-8 and Push the Limit has insane action economy, given the formidable sequence of Reveal Maneuver-> Activate BB-8-> Activate PtL-> Perform Maneuver (if it's a green, clear stress)-> Still be able to take your normal action. With this combination, Poe can still boost to make up for the weak green dial, in addition to Focus/his ability for offensive/defensive purposes throughout the round and still end up unstressed. He's also got a much higher pilot skill and more durability than Guri (despite the lower agility- I'm factoring in his ability here).

EDIT: Saw the thread you mentioned- it's quite an intriguing combination, and one I'm personally excited for. However, the build mentioned there is 2 points more expensive than Poe (for a PS5 pilot no less) and much less reliable, given that if/when the cloaking device fizzles, that's 4 points down the drain and you're left without the essential Autothrusters.

Pilot skill, BB-8 combo potential as mentioned, but in general I also wouldn't put PTL on a T-70. The Poe build that probably has the most potential with R5-P9 gives him either Lone Wolf or Predator. BB-8 combos change that assesment a bit, but that creates a very different ship.

You guys are missing the point here. With a cloaking device, and stygium, Guri can do the same combo but better, as she isn't married to moving sideways. Stygium triggers off the decloak, followed by push, green maneuver clears the stress, and you can actually go one step further and get BETTER actin economy than Poe by boosting or rolling into range 1. That's 4 actions, no stress.

5 actions if you slap FCS on her.

With BB8, Poe and other Xwing pilots can reveal a green maneuver, trigger BB8 to barrel roll, then trigger PTL to do another action, get a stress token then immediately lose the stress token when you perform the green maneuver, then you get to do another action after you move. It gives you some insane combos, and since the T70 has access to boost and barrel roll (with BB8) it is maneuverable enough to not be to predictable with your green maneuvers.

Stygium takes away AT. Guri without AT has trouble closing into her range 1 comfort zone. She is just too fragile.

In the wave 8 Guri discussion thread, it was posited that Guri is a poor candidate for Push the limit since the starviper only has access to green one banks and straights up to speed 3. However, this is the exact same as the T-70, and everyone has proclaimed the brilliance of Push the limit there.

So I ask, what is the difference?

You'll also notice that no one is advocating PtL on the low PS T-70s; Guri, being PS 5, doesn't benefit nearly as much from Adv. Sensor + PtL shenanigans as Poe does with BB-8 + PtL. Furthermore, BB-8 doesn't take away the Perform Action step (which Adv. Sensor does), so PtL off of his free BR action nets action economy on par with Isard + PtL Decimators.

Finally, when flying Poe, it's essential to give him his Focus. He's too costly, and his pilot ability is too good, to not do so. A free pre-movement BR off of which you can PtL to nab that focus and negate the PtL cost (a stress) with the subsequent green maneuver strongly counters the possibility of losing his focus to blocking and/or obstacle overlap. Apart from a couple pilot abilities, that's the end of the ways your opponent can keep him from getting a focus. And since he'd otherwise always be focusing, PtL opens up his action bar more.

Guri will, when you can trigger her ability, get a focus for free. The opponent has a lot more to do with that than with Poe. And Guri with a focus is no more or less dangerous than any other 3-att 3-agi ship with a focus. Poe gets more use out of his focus than any other ship in the game.

BB-8.

Next question.

Hang on, the thread I'm referencing has an action chain very similar to the BB-8 combo. The only true difference is the fragility of the cloaking device.

So I ask again, what is the difference. Why is one a near auto include, and the other not worth mentioning?

I like the PtL/BB-8 combo on Poe Dameron (still waiting to see that PS7 pilot from the standalone expansion) but it isn't really near autoinclude; R5-P9 has plenty of merit too.

I saw the thread you're referencing but honestly you have four points invested in a PS5 pilot that can become useless the first time you use them. You might even have to decloak at the end of the first round in which you took a cloak action. After that, PtL on Guri isn't quite as good as it could be because of her middling PS. It's one thing to be able to Barrel Roll -> PtL Boost -> R1 start-of-combat Focus token but Guri only has that advantage over most generic pilots, and the Starviper dial doesn't allow her to shed stress nearly easily enough to make PtL supereffective. The reason it's so talked up on Poe is that it all happens pre-manoeuvre and won't disintegrate on you unless BB-8 sucks up a hit through an Integrated Astro mod.

It's a neat concept but to me doesn't really warrant more than the thought experiment or a couple friendly games. That's all.

I prefer the R5-P9 approach, but their cost is a huge factor here. Guri is 30 points, 5 HP, ps 5. Poe is 31 points, 6 HP, PS8. Not to mention Stygium takes away Autothrusters. Stygium gives one evade a turn, IF you constantly cloak and decloak, which reduces your attack output by 50%. AT will work far more often.

You're right, the greens on the dials are identical. I've tested the push/stygium combo on Phantoms before and it isn't hugely powerful, but that could be due to the fact that ACD is the obviously better choice there.

Again, I'm all about R5-P9 on Poe. BB8 is great, but on other pilots.

You guys are missing the point here. With a cloaking device, and stygium, Guri can do the same combo but better, as she isn't married to moving sideways. Stygium triggers off the decloak, followed by push, green maneuver clears the stress, and you can actually go one step further and get BETTER actin economy than Poe by boosting or rolling into range 1. That's 4 actions, no stress.

That's 38 points for a PS 5 pilot... Add in FCS and its 40. I rather just run Sensor Jammer & ATs, Xizor.

Actually Xizor with VI is a much better Starviper to throw the Cloaking device on.

You guys are missing the point here. With a cloaking device, and stygium, Guri can do the same combo but better, as she isn't married to moving sideways. Stygium triggers off the decloak, followed by push, green maneuver clears the stress, and you can actually go one step further and get BETTER actin economy than Poe by boosting or rolling into range 1. That's 4 actions, no stress.

that's not better

you can't attack on the turn you cloak

that's a pretty **** massive drawback before we even get into the fact that the dice can (and will) completely **** you out of four points

it's a clunker of a combo

As was already mentioned taking Autothrusters off to give guri a stygium that may only work once is probably bad idea. more over you only get the evade token if you are cloaking and decloaking; you only get to decloak and fire every other round . The cloak on guri isn't necessarily a bad idea I actually like the cloak for the turn you really need it and if you keep it all the better. If you put advanced sensors on guri to push I would say that is the best way to run push the limit on her. That being said I will take slightly more poor action economy to take the sensor jammer.

Agreed. The Starviper is best given boosts that don't require actions - that leaves it free to use its whole maneuver dial where the push the limit obssessives are stuck with just green maneuvers. Fine for an A-wing, Interceptor or TIE/fo, or someone with an astromech, but not if all you have are banks.

Things like sensor jammer, autothrusters, fire control system and Guri's free focus token suit it very nicely. She's one of the few pilots I'd consider packing advanced proton torpedos onto (the others being Rhymer and Dantels) because she's fast enough to get a shot and can support the action economy needed to make it count.

Theoretically she could even pack opportunist as well for a truly ridiculous shot, but that would still leave her needing to shed stress, which a viper's not great at.

In the wave 8 Guri discussion thread, it was posited that Guri is a poor candidate for Push the limit since the starviper only has access to green one banks and straights up to speed 3. However, this is the exact same as the T-70, and everyone has proclaimed the brilliance of Push the limit there.

So I ask, what is the difference?

The difference is people are wrong about PTL Guri.

you can guarantee Poe gets a focus which us multiplied by his pilot ability.

Guri is not a bad pilot though.

In the wave 8 Guri discussion thread, it was posited that Guri is a poor candidate for Push the limit since the starviper only has access to green one banks and straights up to speed 3. However, this is the exact same as the T-70, and everyone has proclaimed the brilliance of Push the limit there.

So I ask, what is the difference?

The difference is people are wrong about PTL Guri.

PTL vipers in general*

it's a B-wing without reds, treasure it and don't limit it to greens

In all honesty I do like AT/AS/PtL Guri just fine but she still needs the title and then I may as well throw on an Illicit....she tends to get a bit too expensive that way. I prefer Lone Wolf and Autothrusters and done. She has a habit of making her points back pretty solidly.

For me, I think, the PTL Guri build in the above mentioned thread is just too many points for a 25% chance of failure before it can be used. I'm all about gambling for big results, but 40 points is a bit much for me to hang on that.

In all honesty I do like AT/AS/PtL Guri just fine but she still needs the title and then I may as well throw on an Illicit....she tends to get a bit too expensive that way. I prefer Lone Wolf and Autothrusters and done. She has a habit of making her points back pretty solidly.

PTL isn't my favorite build for her, since she already has pretty solid action economy and Predator offers a similar benefit without stress. But there's nothing wrong with running PTL if that's what you like, and the BR/Boost combo works really well for her.

In all honesty I do like AT/AS/PtL Guri just fine but she still needs the title and then I may as well throw on an Illicit....she tends to get a bit too expensive that way. I prefer Lone Wolf and Autothrusters and done. She has a habit of making her points back pretty solidly.

PTL isn't my favorite build for her, since she already has pretty solid action economy and Predator offers a similar benefit without stress. But there's nothing wrong with running PTL if that's what you like, and the BR/Boost combo works really well for her.

Exactly. I think Guri is one of the strongest pilots in the game because so many people have so many different favourite builds for her. Although I suppose I mean strength of design as opposed to strength on the board.

In all honesty I do like AT/AS/PtL Guri just fine but she still needs the title and then I may as well throw on an Illicit....she tends to get a bit too expensive that way. I prefer Lone Wolf and Autothrusters and done. She has a habit of making her points back pretty solidly.

PTL isn't my favorite build for her, since she already has pretty solid action economy and Predator offers a similar benefit without stress. But there's nothing wrong with running PTL if that's what you like, and the BR/Boost combo works really well for her.

Exactly. I think Guri is one of the strongest pilots in the game because so many people have so many different favourite builds for her. Although I suppose I mean strength of design as opposed to strength on the board.

I really like this idea. I wish more ships had more "strength of design" as opposed to "strength on the board". If this was the case, more ships would have multiple " "optimized" builds instead of just one or two perfect builds that everyone takes whenever they take said ship.