To be fair, that's from an entirely different era of X-wing design philosophy, not far removed from that which gave us the TIE Advanced, Y-wings without elite talents, etc...
True. But it's not like Title upgrades didn't exist yet. One came with the Falcon.
Edited by DarthEnderX@Jeff Wilder: Okay, let's start with this. Whatever you're doing that formats your posts this way, start doing something else. It comes out as white text on a white background (which is why I didn't respond on my phone last night).
Sorry, but I have no idea what's causing that. I'm not messing with font or color or anything ... I'm just using <quote> and </quote>.
People inevitably make attribution errors, and as a result we shouldn't try to match effects up with causes ever...? I genuinely don't understand what you're saying.
Which is funny, because you perfectly illustrated it as the last line you wrote before you wrote the above: "Fixing the actual problems ought to come first, and then if there's still an issue, we can tweak things like the mechanics of boosting."
In other words, "Let's **** with MoV for no actually good reason. Then if people are still flying Large ships, we can see about doing something about Boost."
And what I'm saying is that people aren't still going to be flying Large ships -- not to the extent it's a problem -- but that has nothing to do with the MoV fix. But people will assume MoV "fixed" things (when actually stuff like TLTs "fixed" things), and Large Boost will never get fixed ... even though it's actually the primary problem that results in MoV-warping from Large ships.
Well, one of the things that happened was that Large BR was changed and it didn't actually help game balance.
... Wait. So now you're saying that Large ships wouldn't have been even worse if BR had not been nerfed for them?
Just to make sure, you're saying "Large BR was changed and it didn't actually help game balance." And you're gonna stick with that? Because if so, it would explain a lot.
That is, even if the two lists would be a 50/50 matchup in an untimed game, as soon as we apply a time limit the 20-point ships are at a disadvantage.
This is only true if the Large ship has a disproportionately effective way of avoiding being killed.
If the Large ship des not have a disproportionately effective way to avoid being killed, it will lose its fair share. Sometimes it will lose 0-100, sometimes 0-80, sometimes 0-60, sometimes 0-20. And sometimes it will win 100-0. Five games. Proportionate. Fair. You're taking a risk in locking your points up. Sometimes you'll get rewarded for it. Usually you won't, because lots of guns will kill you lots of times.
But if the Large ship does have a disproportionately effective way to avoid being killed -- Large-ship Boost! -- then it stops losing the matches it should lose, because it can stop all of those guns from getting to bear on it, and it can do it in a way that is disproportionately effective: it simply ranges away from them, so it's exchanging fire with one ship instead of with three or with five.
And that is a problem, but it's not a problem with the MoV scoring. It's a problem with the disproportionately effective reason that the scoring has swung in favor of Large ships: namely, Large-ship Boosting. The Large ship is not being killed as often as it should be. And it's not being killed as often as it should be for (primarily) one reason: Large-ship Boost.
I don't know how to make this simpler. Large-ship Boost makes it incredibly difficult to kill Large ships. If Large ships can't be killed, they win. And because they're Large ships, they win with big MoVs. That last statement is a side-effect ... it is not the cause. The cause is Large-ship Boost.
Fixing the side-effect without even attempting to fix the cause is just plain goofy and illogical. But that's exactly what's been done with the MoV change.
To be fair, that's from an entirely different era of X-wing design philosophy, not far removed from that which gave us the TIE Advanced, Y-wings without elite talents, etc...
True. But it's not like Title upgrades didn't exist yet. One came with the Falcon.
Thing is, if the stats were on the title, wouldn't that mean the Outer Rim Smuggler could also have the increased stats? (Having the title be "Han Solo, Lando Calrissian, Chewbacca only", seems a bit clutterly)
Thing is, if the stats were on the title, wouldn't that mean the Outer Rim Smuggler could also have the increased stats?
Yep.
Not really any different than a Spice Runner flying the Slave I. Or a Wild Space Fringer flying the Outrider.
The problem with the way those pilots are now, they get those extra stats because they are flying the Falcon. Which is a unique ship. But unlike a Unique Title card, nothing stops you from playing Han/Chewie/Lando at the same time, and effectively having multiple Falcons on the table at the same time.
Edited by DarthEnderXI will admit I have not read all the post in the 9 pages, but my thoughts on this is the I feel it should be the same for all ships, If the Issue truely is about tanking for a win. A B-Wing and Why wing have the same total haul and shield amount (8) as an IG-88 and you can field 2x as many, sure thier or other differences but you pay different points for that. The K-wing and Punsiher are acually higher with 9 hual and shirld points almost as high as a Shuttle/firespray/YT-2400's 10. I think the points you pay for the "FAT" ships actually even out, Two evenly Skilled players one with a swarm the other with a "Fat" build the advantage start heavily in the swarms favor, Teh Fat build has to rely on manovering, rocks and Dice to gain the advantage and win the game. A swarm can and have taken apart a Fat ship on more occations that i can remember. Any 2 ship build has to out fly a build that has numbers on it.
More and more I feel this rule has been put in place to benifit the beginning player and not the more experianced player. If you know going into the match what you have to do to win, Know where the battles are going to take place, and can think more than once dice roll ahead, The game was already naturally balanced. It is one of the most balanced games i have played. The Game designers have now ponished me for Flying my favorte ship the Falcon, Which is also the very first ship i bought. But under the new rules i am better off flying to T65 Rokie Pilots, than my favorite ship. Oh and I Use Chewebacca, Have only flown a Han maybe a handfull of times in the 2+ years i have played. 99% of the time Chewie was the first pilot I would pull out.
I could go on and on, But I am really hoping that X-wing does not Turn in to Startreh attack wing, Where the sledge hammer hs to come out cause of all the crying.
I will admit I have not read all the post in the 9 pages, but my thoughts on this is the I feel it should be the same for all ships, If the Issue truely is about tanking for a win. A B-Wing and Why wing have the same total haul and shield amount (8) as an IG-88 and you can field 2x as many, sure thier or other differences but you pay different points for that. The K-wing and Punsiher are acually higher with 9 hual and shirld points almost as high as a Shuttle/firespray/YT-2400's 10. I think the points you pay for the "FAT" ships actually even out, Two evenly Skilled players one with a swarm the other with a "Fat" build the advantage start heavily in the swarms favor, Teh Fat build has to rely on manovering, rocks and Dice to gain the advantage and win the game. A swarm can and have taken apart a Fat ship on more occations that i can remember. Any 2 ship build has to out fly a build that has numbers on it.
More and more I feel this rule has been put in place to benifit the beginning player and not the more experianced player. If you know going into the match what you have to do to win, Know where the battles are going to take place, and can think more than once dice roll ahead, The game was already naturally balanced. It is one of the most balanced games i have played. The Game designers have now ponished me for Flying my favorte ship the Falcon, Which is also the very first ship i bought. But under the new rules i am better off flying to T65 Rokie Pilots, than my favorite ship. Oh and I Use Chewebacca, Have only flown a Han maybe a handfull of times in the 2+ years i have played. 99% of the time Chewie was the first pilot I would pull out.
I could go on and on, But I am really hoping that X-wing does not Turn in to Startreh attack wing, Where the sledge hammer hs to come out cause of all the crying.
If the ship is good, it's going to be good, if it's bad, it's still going to be bad. I mean, I run a list that gives up MoV hard, almost as bad as an 8 tie swarm but it's just something you have to roll with. If you think this is going to make the fat pancakes go away, you're mistaken(it's probably the twin lasers that would do that).
If you're picking pilots based on their MoV, you're probably hamstringing your list. You've got to get to the MoV cut point/play games close for it to even matter.
Don't forget advanced homing missiles, a few crits early on can severely hamper a pancake.
Don't forget advanced homing missiles, a few crits early on can severely hamper a pancake.
Too gimmicky. I mean if you can put shots on them they go down like anything else, you don't really need advanced homing missiles for that.
Don't forget advanced homing missiles, a few crits early on can severely hamper a pancake.
Too gimmicky. I mean if you can put shots on them they go down like anything else, you don't really need advanced homing missiles for that.
Sure there's no guarantee but if you reduce agility to zero or they lose a red die that could make a heck of a difference to the game.
Might as well just roll red dice till you get a crit then
Speaking of, cluster missiles 
Might as well just roll red dice till you get a crit then
Speaking of, cluster missiles
Yeah but those pesky shields get in the way 
The Game designers have now ponished me for Flying my favorte ship the Falcon, Which is also the very first ship i bought. But under the new rules i am better off flying to T65 Rokie Pilots, than my favorite ship. Oh and I Use Chewebacca, Have only flown a Han maybe a handfull of times in the 2+ years i have played. 99% of the time Chewie was the first pilot I would pull out.
I could go on and on, But I am really hoping that X-wing does not Turn in to Startreh attack wing, Where the sledge hammer hs to come out cause of all the crying.
You're only better flying T-65s over Chewie if your wins were because of point fortressing.