Lets throw in 4bz. Two vs five ships. 13hp lost on Chewbo and 33hp lost on 4bz (2b-1hp each and 1z-1hp remain). This seems justified/warranted?

Fair point - you knock out 2 B-wings and have the other ships on the ropes, ready to fall if you just had one more round.

I can see where that would be frustrating.

Miranda is not exactly Heaver's Fat Han. 2/3rds the HP and caps at 2 damage mitigated a turn with significantly less mobility and a drop in offense if she's regenerating a shield(R2-D2 is also anti synergistic in a number of matches). Fat Miranda is obnoxious, certainly, but she's no Fat Han.

Edit: To elaborate: Much of PWTs ability to point fortress comes from their ability to Attack from any angle while moving at speeds rivalling Tie Interceptors and Jake Farrell. Miranda moves at B-wing speed unless she slams, which denies her the ability to Attack (And regenerate a shield).

She also has laughable offense compared to Han.

Miranda is not exactly Heaver's Fat Han. 2/3rds the HP and caps at 2 damage mitigated a turn with significantly less mobility and a drop in offense if she's regenerating a shield(R2-D2 is also anti synergistic in a number of matches). Fat Miranda is obnoxious, certainly, but she's no Fat Han.

Edit: To elaborate: Much of PWTs ability to point fortress comes from their ability to Attack from any angle while moving at speeds rivalling Tie Interceptors and Jake Farrell. Miranda moves at B-wing speed unless she slams, which denies her the ability to Attack (And regenerate a shield).

She also has laughable offense compared to Han.

Miranda is not exactly Heaver's Fat Han. 2/3rds the HP and caps at 2 damage mitigated a turn with significantly less mobility and a drop in offense if she's regenerating a shield(R2-D2 is also anti synergistic in a number of matches). Fat Miranda is obnoxious, certainly, but she's no Fat Han.

Edit: To elaborate: Much of PWTs ability to point fortress comes from their ability to Attack from any angle while moving at speeds rivalling Tie Interceptors and Jake Farrell. Miranda moves at B-wing speed unless she slams, which denies her the ability to Attack (And regenerate a shield).

She also has laughable offense compared to Han.

TLT with Focus token is superior to a three dice attack with (effectively) target lock (Han generally boosts or evades) based on Major Juggler's math. However, if Miranda is regenerating, Han does pull ahead. Although Gunner changes things a fair bit (And if Han doesn't have Gunner, he probably has R2-D2 and C-3P0)

She's not regenning (or dealing damage) if she's running.

That's what I said. :?

No it shouldn't, players who have played nothing but lists based around large ships for the past year must be punished.

I saw the new MOV rules in effect in a 21 person tourney over the weekend and I will say that it is absolutely perfect for the state of the game. The double IG list still won out, but not by running and boosting after destroying a ship or two, but by going 4-0. 2nd place was a shuttle and 3 ties list (also 4-0 but with a mod win), 3rd went to I decimator and Punisher (3-1). The thing that was most 'screwed' up was the bye, although it was a 'win' I lost the equivalent of 2 ships (which did not happen in my other wins - situational I know but still). The point is that large bases can still do very well in tourney's, it's just now the snapshot of the tourney shows that at times those big bases were not unscathed.

The difference between this tourney and the others (pre-MOV improvement) was that the top players had to work for their wins and didn't have false 100-0 wins on their record, but rather wins that showed they did take some damage along the way. Furthermore, the player(s) that managed to get both IG's down to 1 and 2 hit points each, was at least credited for his work with 50-100 loss, vs a 0-100 loss.

In practice the new MOV scoring is working just fine. It seems that if you win all of your games you will be at or near the top of ths standings where you belong, if you don't win out, you'll actaully have to fight for wins and not run for wins. Awarding 1/2 points to small base ships, just puts us back to where we were and solves nothing IMO.

So theoretically, in a match with chewie/leebo vs 4y TLT, Chewie could lose 7hp, Leebo 5hp (total 13hp) and the 4 y could lose 7 hp each (total 28hp) and the TLT's win? That's a match with a all turrets, 2 vs 4 ships. Also a potential of 5 rounds of shooting for Chewbo vs 2 rounds of shooting for TLT. This seems skewed.

Good. Anything that causes an NPE for Fat Turretwing fans is a good thing. Many it's time to not fly double Turretwing lists anymore and play a real list.

So theoretically, in a match with chewie/leebo vs 4y TLT, Chewie could lose 7hp, Leebo 5hp (total 13hp) and the 4 y could lose 7 hp each (total 28hp) and the TLT's win? That's a match with a all turrets, 2 vs 4 ships. Also a potential of 5 rounds of shooting for Chewbo vs 2 rounds of shooting for TLT. This seems skewed.

Good. Anything that causes an NPE for Fat Turretwing fans is a good thing. Many it's time to not fly double Turretwing lists anymore and play a real list.

So theoretically, in a match with chewie/leebo vs 4y TLT, Chewie could lose 7hp, Leebo 5hp (total 13hp) and the 4 y could lose 7 hp each (total 28hp) and the TLT's win? That's a match with a all turrets, 2 vs 4 ships. Also a potential of 5 rounds of shooting for Chewbo vs 2 rounds of shooting for TLT. This seems skewed.

Good. Anything that causes an NPE for Fat Turretwing fans is a good thing. Many it's time to not fly double Turretwing lists anymore and play a real list.

I think we all realised that something needed to be done about scoring with mov and phat turrets just like we all knew the phantom needed to be taken down a peg or two. It just that this new rule does hurt all large based ships and leaves the small elite ships un touched.

Who knows where the chips will fall but what I persona think is that some more tweaking needs to be done. Weather it's apploed to all ships or only if the game runs to time( my favourite as if you tabled your opponent in the time you clearly didn't do the run away game and then applied to all ships) I would also like to see a cap on max sheild regen or a tally effect that counts toward mov , and yes this is more complicated but the warhammer crowd have always had complicated scoring systems for the tournaments and they manage well enough. Let's not forget that people have come to x wing from warhammer because the company is run by ****** bags and not because of tournament scoring system. I'm sure if they can do more in depth scoring than xwing ( and let's be honest xwing is far simpler) I'm sure we can do it

this change is needed and long overdue

honestly, I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want this to apply to small ships too. They can't soak the same amount of points nor be even nearly as forgiving.

people like pointing out Corran Horn, who is always a bump away from ******, or maybe Miranda who is operating with less speed, health, punch, and points than any large base PWT. Small ships are simply, mechanically not in need of any adjustments

unless you want to tackle green dice, but that's another story

Slow play/stalling is completely enforceable. You just need to call a judge over.

How often have you called a judge over and had your opponent disqualified, or at least given more time to play the match out? In my experience that happens at best 1 time out of 20. Actually it has been exactly zero out of 20+. Your mileage may vary.

Regardless, slow play is fundamentally undefined by the rules and therefore is fundamentally not enforceable.

Slow play to abuse the scoring is still a symptom not the cause.

wait a tic

I thought "slow play" was less farting around with a PWT and more "let me set a four-minute dial"

as much as PWTs are the least interesting things in the game, I can't imagine penalizing someone for not running the clock when it's entirely in their advantage to do so. What's the alternative? joust ?

So theoretically, in a match with chewie/leebo vs 4y TLT, Chewie could lose 7hp, Leebo 5hp (total 13hp) and the 4 y could lose 7 hp each (total 28hp) and the TLT's win? That's a match with a all turrets, 2 vs 4 ships. Also a potential of 5 rounds of shooting for Chewbo vs 2 rounds of shooting for TLT. This seems skewed.

Good. Anything that causes an NPE for Fat Turretwing fans is a good thing. Many it's time to not fly double Turretwing lists anymore and play a real list.

Good God, I hope I never play you in real life, Goomba.

Yeah I have to agree with DR4CO, that's going a bit far.

I saw the new MOV rules in effect in a 21 person tourney over the weekend and I will say that it is absolutely perfect for the state of the game. The double IG list still won out, but not by running and boosting after destroying a ship or two, but by going 4-0. 2nd place was a shuttle and 3 ties list (also 4-0 but with a mod win), 3rd went to I decimator and Punisher (3-1). The thing that was most 'screwed' up was the bye, although it was a 'win' I lost the equivalent of 2 ships (which did not happen in my other wins - situational I know but still). The point is that large bases can still do very well in tourney's, it's just now the snapshot of the tourney shows that at times those big bases were not unscathed.

The difference between this tourney and the others (pre-MOV improvement) was that the top players had to work for their wins and didn't have false 100-0 wins on their record, but rather wins that showed they did take some damage along the way. Furthermore, the player(s) that managed to get both IG's down to 1 and 2 hit points each, was at least credited for his work with 50-100 loss, vs a 0-100 loss.

In practice the new MOV scoring is working just fine. It seems that if you win all of your games you will be at or near the top of ths standings where you belong, if you don't win out, you'll actaully have to fight for wins and not run for wins. Awarding 1/2 points to small base ships, just puts us back to where we were and solves nothing IMO.

This exactly. You should be rewarded for burning down half the HP of a powerful ship. Good post JESIV

I think we all realised that something needed to be done about scoring with mov and phat turrets just like we all knew the phantom needed to be taken down a peg or two. It just that this new rule does hurt all large based ships and leaves the small elite ships un touched.

Who knows where the chips will fall but what I persona think is that some more tweaking needs to be done. Weather it's apploed to all ships or only if the game runs to time( my favourite as if you tabled your opponent in the time you clearly didn't do the run away game and then applied to all ships) I would also like to see a cap on max sheild regen or a tally effect that counts toward mov , and yes this is more complicated but the warhammer crowd have always had complicated scoring systems for the tournaments and they manage well enough. Let's not forget that people have come to x wing from warhammer because the company is run by ****** bags and not because of tournament scoring system. I'm sure if they can do more in depth scoring than xwing ( and let's be honest xwing is far simpler) I'm sure we can do it

If a ship is good, it's still good, if it was bad, it's still bad. I don't think MOV changes that, because, remember it only matters between people with the same amount of wins. I still think you're gonna see turrets and fat ships because they're still good at winning games- you have to get to that 5-1 and 4-2 point for MoV to matter.

I'm not a fan of the new ruling. I honestly think it allows weaker players to win matches they shouldn't have won. I'm saying that as someone who has been running only small ships for quite awhile. Beating large ships is not some crazy anomaly that rarely happens. It can happen pretty consistently. At gencon I went 5-2 and played large based ships every round except 2 and barely didn't make the cut. If this scoring was in effect there would be no way Phildo would have made the cut and he went 0-2 and then had to win out without losing any ships and I'm pretty sure he only lost oicunn 1 time during the other 5 matches and that is pretty god **** impressive to do with a low ps decimator. Almost anybody with any list can get a decimator down to half health that is no accomplishment and should not award any points.

What I see out of this is that there were a lot of large based ships. Personally, I think something needs to be done to rebalance the number of fat turrets in competitive lists. I'm pretty sure we will see some half points for small based ships, but I feel they want the number of fat turrets in tournaments to go down. They are still competitive and will win events, but there will be some players who will go with small based ships now due to the ruling. This is a good thing in my opinion as I feel as if there are just too many fat turrets in competitive play. I'll be happy when fat turrets are only 25% of what you see at a tournament and only 25% of what wins.

I love how people see this change and react "Good, it's time to nerf Fat PWT's/Dash". Yeah, it sure as hell is - I've played Fat Falcon for some time to some success (Top 16 in the Polish Nationals) and I can certainly say that it was OP. But the TLTs are its bane much more than the new ruling - I have no idea why FFG decided to add the half point rule to it.

Additionally, while I agree that Fat Large should be nerfed somehow, I hate how FFG's going around about it. This change hurts Firesprays, which were already virtually non-existent at the top tables, it hurts Lambda shuttles (lol@ the doomshuttle that hands the opponent 12 points for using Vader 3 times). You don't even have to kill the doomshuttle now, it just hands you points via the Sith Lord's Force Choke RIP Darth Vader crew card, we hardly knew ye. Why is everyone hung up on the Fat PWT aspect of this? I don't think Lambdas, Firesprays and YV-666 were strong enough to be caught in this.

I don't think Firesprays and Lambdas are hurt all that much by the new ruling, so long as you're winning your match anyway. That's kind of the thing; it doesn't make a competitive list less competitive, it just rewards your opponents for landing damage. If you win, it really isn't a huge change.

Also, concerning the fact that TLTs deter PWTs more than the new ruling: maybe the tourney ruling was done with forethought. Ahead of, say, a new Large Rebel ship that stands to be worth 50+ points. Perhaps play testing helped drive the new rule alongside tourney result stats.

I feel like FFG does layered approach these days to issues. I think it's both TLT's and the new rulings that will ensure to put the nail in the coffin of the fat turret dominance. They really want to see things change.

So theoretically, in a match with chewie/leebo vs 4y TLT, Chewie could lose 7hp, Leebo 5hp (total 13hp) and the 4 y could lose 7 hp each (total 28hp) and the TLT's win? That's a match with a all turrets, 2 vs 4 ships. Also a potential of 5 rounds of shooting for Chewbo vs 2 rounds of shooting for TLT. This seems skewed.

Good. Anything that causes an NPE for Fat Turretwing fans is a good thing. Many it's time to not fly double Turretwing lists anymore and play a real list.

There are some men who can't be bargained or reasoned with. Some men just want to watch the PWTs burn...

I feel like FFG does layered approach these days to issues. I think it's both TLT's and the new rulings that will ensure to put the nail in the coffin of the fat turret dominance. They really want to see things change.

don't forget ordnance buffs

we're not seeing em yet, but the rise of viable cluster missile platforms such as N'dru and Redline, plus the upcoming buffs in Wave 8 promising even more high-damage 2-shot weapons promises to smack large base ships upside the head. Limited-shot, high damage weaponry are ideal against single, high value targets.

the irony is that one of the best ordnance platforms will be a large base turret (two if you count homing missile miranda)

So theoretically, in a match with chewie/leebo vs 4y TLT, Chewie could lose 7hp, Leebo 5hp (total 13hp) and the 4 y could lose 7 hp each (total 28hp) and the TLT's win? That's a match with a all turrets, 2 vs 4 ships. Also a potential of 5 rounds of shooting for Chewbo vs 2 rounds of shooting for TLT. This seems skewed.

Good. Anything that causes an NPE for Fat Turretwing fans is a good thing. Many it's time to not fly double Turretwing lists anymore and play a real list.

Lmao you sound like a child and a scrub.

Because "LMAO" and "scrub" lend a post such maturity...

Look, we know a lot of people feel strongly about this issue one way or another. But people are starting to behave like the U.S. Congress. It's embarrassing, people. I realize we get passionate about our tiny toy ships because we've invested so much time and money into the hobby, but still. Don't act like that pit filled to the brim with rabid badgers.

It's only fair, I've had 50% of my games against Fat Turretwing NPE lists for the past year.

Also, I understand that I'm being a petulant child about this, haha.

As far as actually playing against me and me being a pleasant opponent, I tend to play interesting lists when I'm not playing quad TLT and I'm usually friendly in games. One of my favorite opponents mains Chewy Corran.

So theoretically, in a match with chewie/leebo vs 4y TLT, Chewie could lose 7hp, Leebo 5hp (total 13hp) and the 4 y could lose 7 hp each (total 28hp) and the TLT's win? That's a match with a all turrets, 2 vs 4 ships. Also a potential of 5 rounds of shooting for Chewbo vs 2 rounds of shooting for TLT. This seems skewed.

Good. Anything that causes an NPE for Fat Turretwing fans is a good thing. Many it's time to not fly double Turretwing lists anymore and play a real list.

Lmao you sound like a child and a scrub.

Because "LMAO" and "scrub" lend a post such maturity...

Look, we know a lot of people feel strongly about this issue one way or another. But people are starting to behave like the U.S. Congress. It's embarrassing, people. I realize we get passionate about our tiny toy ships because we've invested so much time and money into the hobby, but still. Don't act like that pit filled to the brim with rabid badgers.

So theoretically, in a match with chewie/leebo vs 4y TLT, Chewie could lose 7hp, Leebo 5hp (total 13hp) and the 4 y could lose 7 hp each (total 28hp) and the TLT's win? That's a match with a all turrets, 2 vs 4 ships. Also a potential of 5 rounds of shooting for Chewbo vs 2 rounds of shooting for TLT. This seems skewed.

Good. Anything that causes an NPE for Fat Turretwing fans is a good thing. Many it's time to not fly double Turretwing lists anymore and play a real list.

Lmao you sound like a child and a scrub.

Because "LMAO" and "scrub" lend a post such maturity...

Look, we know a lot of people feel strongly about this issue one way or another. But people are starting to behave like the U.S. Congress. It's embarrassing, people. I realize we get passionate about our tiny toy ships because we've invested so much time and money into the hobby, but still. Don't act like that pit filled to the brim with rabid badgers.

I think "U.S congress" is actually the worst slur we've gotten in this thread, yet

this change is needed and long overdue

honestly, I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want this to apply to small ships too. They can't soak the same amount of points nor be even nearly as forgiving.

people like pointing out Corran Horn, who is always a bump away from ******, or maybe Miranda who is operating with less speed, health, punch, and points than any large base PWT. Small ships are simply, mechanically not in need of any adjustments

unless you want to tackle green dice, but that's another story

Slow play/stalling is completely enforceable. You just need to call a judge over.

How often have you called a judge over and had your opponent disqualified, or at least given more time to play the match out? In my experience that happens at best 1 time out of 20. Actually it has been exactly zero out of 20+. Your mileage may vary.

Regardless, slow play is fundamentally undefined by the rules and therefore is fundamentally not enforceable.

Slow play to abuse the scoring is still a symptom not the cause.

wait a tic

I thought "slow play" was less farting around with a PWT and more "let me set a four-minute dial"

as much as PWTs are the least interesting things in the game, I can't imagine penalizing someone for not running the clock when it's entirely in their advantage to do so. What's the alternative? joust ?

I was (trying) to refer specifically to taking a long time to place dials etc to burn out the clock, not merely running away.

In practice it is a very grey line and can be difficult to differentiate the two.