Now you've misunderstood mine -- with "this is what the setting ended up with" I didn't refer to the Imperium, but rather how the authors of the codices and other studio material described the nature of the battles of the 41st millennium .. anything from how strong fortress walls are, to what sort of weapons are used to defend a planet against invaders.

Although the value of Space Marines is ultimately tied to the Imperium as well; you cannot separate the two as if the Marines would not play a significant role in terms of how they are hyped by propaganda and revered by the populace, or that the remaining Loyalists could turn into an unwelcome threat if their relationship to the High Lords should sour, which ultimately affects political situations such as "do we actually want to keep them?".

It's not just a question of cost. The Sororitas are not cost-efficient either, yet nobody would dream about disbanding them because of the role they play in the Imperium. And they are more expensive to "make" than the Space Marines.

I don't see what anythong of what you said has to do with my position. I don't even interpret yours. I agree with all that you said at this level. As I said, I don't question the space marine's position in the Imperium. I question what is the correct level of overall strenght they represent since all of the factors that made them what they are. And at this level, it's just a question of interpretation.

Actually, I'm not sure it is still the case that Storm Troopers are fewer than Space Marines -- this used to be so until 6th edition, as before the Storm Troopers were just a single regiment with 10,000 troops, but the new Codex Militarum Tempestus lists several regiments (the Greek alphabet has 24 characters, and each character now seems to have several regiments assigned to it).

You're sure about that? My books are away from me (in the same box than with the rest of my 40k), but what I understood at that time it was that Storm Troopers acted in regiments of 10 000 men, which where dissipated between imperial guard regiments to lend support. I never thought at all that they were only 10 000 in the galaxy.

"At some point, every cadet is strapped down to an iron chair known as the Correction Throne. Needles are then inserted through the rear of the cadet's skull, and their heads are flooded with dirus, a neurochemical fluid that cleanses their synapses, wiping away old memories and paving the way for new information. It is an unfortunate, and little discussed fact that the Imperium possesses ever-dwindling stocks of dirus, and it is increasingly being diluted with more dubious substances."

-- 6E C:MT

Must admit I stopped following the background since the 5th edition and neversaw that info before. I trust you on the basis of your well found quotes. This actually gives them something interesting.

his is one of the main differences between 40k Storm Troopers and modern day special forces. They aren't just ordinary soldiers with great training, they're literally mindwiped living weapons whose entire existence revolves around duty and service, who have been condition since childhood into following orders no matter their nature, and who spend their entire lives either fighting or training

Well, Imperial Guard codex 4th edition had the doctrines rules, which had Grenadiers. Grenadiers permitted you to take units of storm troopers to represents the elite special forces of some regiments, that weren't from the Schola. So you've got soliders not mind-wiped by the schola thare are still as good.

By comparison, even contemporary special forces - who had ordinary childhoods, may have wives/husbands and children, and go to the bar to drink with their brothers-in-arms - are quite a bit less dedicated.

I've known a guy from Special Force. Agreed, he doesn't live in the constant warfare feel that soliders of the 41st millenium do, but they're still ****-well dedicated to the cause. I think there can be a difference indeed, but not that much.

And yeah, I would say that people nowadays are actually inferior to what they'd be in 40k -- not because they lack the potential, but because our modern lifestyle results in the average man and woman being rather pampered by luxury or neglect, ultimately lowering the number of potential recruits who might qualify for special forces

Agreed, there are differences between military cultures. But there are military cultures in other countries, and their forces doesn't necessarily fare well against "peaceful" culture's (like our own), even if they live in constant threath, military regimen and such. I don't think this has a lot of impact. It's just a question of approach.

Number of hours in a day training, your own morale about doing it, etc. Sure the Imperium is better equipped in that domain than our modern armies, but in the end, a man's potentiel is a man's potential, and I think speciale forces of both venue tend to take what's best and bring it to the maximum of said potential. But that's just my take on it, nothing scientific.

An army of kids subjected to stringent nutritional control and military drill is bound to make for excellent killers later on.

WWII Germany did this. But we won't ever see the real impact of it since we busted them too soon for it to be fully implanted. But I don't think this would have been such a great differences between 40k doing it, modern people doing it, and non-fascist special troops doing it.

In the end, your dedication is to your values. Imperial subjects are to the supremacy of mankind upon xenos, Marine Corps and Navy Seals are to the protection of their country and their way of living, in the end, if the cause talks to you, you'll defend it well.

I don't see what anythong of what you said has to do with my position. I don't even interpret yours. I agree with all that you said at this level. As I said, I don't question the space marine's position in the Imperium. I question what is the correct level of overall strenght they represent since all of the factors that made them what they are. And at this level, it's just a question of interpretation.

Well, you did say you thought they "wouldn't be worth the cost", and that you "don't think the Imperium would work that way if Space Marines were lesser than what DH describes because it would be cheaper to deploy regiment of storm trooper".

If we were to leave the setting (including the Marine's role for society, Imperial economy, and the lack of dirus) aside and focus just on the combat prowess of Space Marines, I'd agree that more Storm Troopers would be a better alternative. You'd still end up with situations where any little advantage helps, and where a smaller force of more elite troops would have won the battle where a larger force of lesser troops failed (otherwise the Space Marines themselves wouldn't bother with Terminator armour ), but these shouldn't be the norm.

So at this point, it would boil down to whether or not you are prepared to face the consequences of these lost battlest. Perhaps the larger number of victories from other battles can compensate? Hard to say.

You're sure about that? My books are away from me (in the same box than with the rest of my 40k), but what I understood at that time it was that Storm Troopers acted in regiments of 10 000 men, which where dissipated between imperial guard regiments to lend support. I never thought at all that they were only 10 000 in the galaxy.

Quite sure -- as I brought up the "there's fewer Storm Troopers than Space Marines" argument before to counter some fans whose argument basically boiled down to "fewer numbers must always be more elite".

Here's the quote:

"The regiment is unusually large, with as many as ten thousand men under arms at one time. However, it rarely fights in one place. Instead, individual companies or battalions of a thousand men at a time are sent to war zones to bolster the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard. In action, they provide a core of ultra-trained, well-equipped squads that can be spread amongst the other Imperial Guard regiments as needed."

-- 2E C:IG

I actually prefer this older fluff. In part because I dislike unnecessary changes, but also because I feel the inflated number takes away from their "eliteness" -- not in combat capability, but rarity.

Plus, I had that headcanon theory that, maybe, the Storm Trooper regiment is the reorganised remnant of ancient Terran ex-Imperial Army shock troops that accompanied the Legiones Astartes during the Great Crusade, and were later reshaped into a standing formation, with battalions attached directly to Segmentum Command to disperse all over the galaxy on an as-needed basis, and command being a vaunted but ultimately inconsequential desk job reserved for Terran nobility, with a fancy title like "Colonel of the Storm Trooper Regiment" who reports directly to the Lord Commander Militant of the Senatorum Imperialis.

Alas, I guess GW finally adjusted the ST's fluff to match with the more liberal rest of the setting, to allow people to paint their Storm Troopers in the colours they wanted, rather than feeling bound to a singular official pattern.

Must admit I stopped following the background since the 5th edition and neversaw that info before. I trust you on the basis of your well found quotes. This actually gives them something interesting.

Indeed, it's a new piece of background that expands the background of any Schola graduate with a rather interesting (and dark) aspect -- applying to Arbites, Commissars and Sororitas as well. The Schola Progenium sees a lot of detailed description in the new MT codex, way more than in the 2E C:SoB one, which so far was the go-to place for information on the Schola. I guess not all of the new stuff is bad; sometimes, they still have a couple gems to find.

Well, Imperial Guard codex 4th edition had the doctrines rules, which had Grenadiers. Grenadiers permitted you to take units of storm troopers to represents the elite special forces of some regiments, that weren't from the Schola. So you've got soliders not mind-wiped by the schola thare are still as good.

Yeah, but those were unable to deep-strike, and Kasrkin go through a rather rigorous training as well -- starting in childhood, similar to the Schola Progenium.

Personally, I'd make it depend on the planet and its culture; I'm sure some few of the Imperium's worlds can produce something that at least comes close (though they probably wouldn't be able to use the new Orders that 6E Storm Troopers got).

Agreed, there are differences between military cultures. But there are military cultures in other countries, and their forces doesn't necessarily fare well against "peaceful" culture's (like our own), even if they live in constant threath, military regimen and such. I don't think this has a lot of impact. It's just a question of approach.

Number of hours in a day training, your own morale about doing it, etc. Sure the Imperium is better equipped in that domain than our modern armies, but in the end, a man's potentiel is a man's potential, and I think speciale forces of both venue tend to take what's best and bring it to the maximum of said potential. But that's just my take on it, nothing scientific.

I'd say the reason those forces didn't fare well against "ours" is simply because of the technology gap. You can have the most dedicated troops, but when the enemy has satellite coverage and knows where you are before you're even aware of the threat, they can just shell you into oblivion without much in the way of return fire -- see the tank battles between the US and Iraqi troops during Desert Storm.

This has been true throughout history: the Mino regiment of African Dahomey regularly slaughtered their opposition of the neighbouring tribes, and even took on European troops. Then the French brought in machine guns, and they perished.

Meanwhile, the Storm Troopers of 40k couple fanatical devotion and inhumane training with some of the best wargear the Imperium has to offer. I've often said that guns in 40k are "equalisers" (give a Guardsman a plasma gun and they become dangerous even in a 1-on-1 against a Space Marine), and STs are a good example of advanced training and technology coming together.

I don't agree that modern day special forces are actually at the maximum of their mental and physical potential, but that's just because I think that someone who has been indoctrinated since childhood would make an even better living weapon. We've heard about various special forces who messed up simply because of being "too human" under the stress. Perhaps it's just a consequence of transitioning between two so very different worlds.

WWII Germany did this. But we won't ever see the real impact of it since we busted them too soon for it to be fully implanted. But I don't think this would have been such a great differences between 40k doing it, modern people doing it, and non-fascist special troops doing it.

If you mean the Napola academies rather than the more boyscout'ish Hitler Youth, yeah, I agree. I also agree that it doesn't necessarily depend on the culture which enacts the training -- however, the training itself most certainly shapes the soldier, and the training depends on what the culture is willing to enable. I think few if any modern western nations would allow children to be sent into boot camps where they'd regularly get injured in an attempt to mould them into indoctrinated little killers.

Reportedly, the number of Napola graduates entering the Waffen-SS was much higher than from the rest of the population, but sadly we don't know how they actually performed in combat compared to those soldiers recruited from a more common background.

So at this point, it would boil down to whether or not you are prepared to face the consequences of these lost battlest. Perhaps the larger number of victories from other battles can compensate? Hard to say.

Indeed. I think at the scale of the imperium, the number of victories from other battle would be of more importance, but on the other hand, there are those battles that you just can't permit yourself to lose, in favour to your argument.

I actually prefer this older fluff. In part because I dislike unnecessary changes, but also because I feel the inflated number takes away from their "eliteness" -- not in combat capability, but rarity.

Yep, but on the other hand, even having 28 regiments of 10 000 men doesn't make it very numerous with the scale of the Imperium. They are still not even a third of the Adeptus Astartes, which is very low in number.

Alas, I guess GW finally adjusted the ST's fluff to match with the more liberal rest of the setting, to allow people to paint their Storm Troopers in the colours they wanted, rather than feeling bound to a singular official pattern.

Plausible enough. Anyway, they couldn't really force players to paint them the way they said. They acted like "if you can't beat it, join it"

Personally, I'd make it depend on the planet and its culture; I'm sure some few of the Imperium's worlds can produce something that at least comes close (though they probably wouldn't be able to use the new Orders that 6E Storm Troopers got).

I agree, I don't see a beginning industrial world forming elite shocktroops that don't even know a **** thing about modern warfare doing good against modern elite troops. But on many worlds (Cadia has indeed its kasrkins, but they certainly aren't the exception), there should be troops like this.

As for the deep strike, I see it more as being linked to the combined arms concept: the infantry regiment disposing of elite soldiers is still not equipped with the vehicles necessary to drop troops from the air.

I don't agree that modern day special forces are actually at the maximum of their mental and physical potential, but that's just because I think that someone who has been indoctrinated since childhood would make an even better living weapon. We've heard about various special forces who messed up simply because of being "too human" under the stress. Perhaps it's just a consequence of transitioning between two so very different worlds.

I also agree, but I think it's not a generality, but chances are that you will get more mistakes at this level. But you've also got more than your share of psychopath and fanatics that doesn't care.

I knew a sergeant from the Canadian 22nd Royal Regiment that confessed to me once when he was drunk, that when he was in afghanistan, he killed a lot of people. When I asked him if he told me this because he was shaken by this, he told me "Not at all. Honeslty kids with guns are just that; people with guns. Either they shoot you, or you shoot them. My choice was easily made. And I made it a lot of time"

Maybe he was saying BS, but I don't think he was in any state to lie to me at this moment. And the guy doesn't seem to be a sociopath, just a soldier endoctrinated not to think but to act when in mission. And we don't speak at all about special forces (even if the 22nd Regiment is known to be one of the best of the Canadian army).

Reportedly, the number of Napola graduates entering the Waffen-SS was much higher than from the rest of the population, but sadly we don't know how they actually performed in combat compared to those soldiers recruited from a more common background.

Sounds like a good subject for a university thesis!

As for the deep strike, I see it more as being linked to the combined arms concept: the infantry regiment disposing of elite soldiers is still not equipped with the vehicles necessary to drop troops from the air.

Yeah, quite likely. Vaklyries can temporarily be attached to a Guard regiment (and some few even have them quasi-permanently, if only because nobody pulled them apart yet), but only the Storm Trooper regiment/s gets its own air taxis by default.

I also agree, but I think it's not a generality, but chances are that you will get more mistakes at this level. But you've also got more than your share of psychopath and fanatics that doesn't care.

Oh, yeah, I wouldn't want to generalise on that front. Just that the more individualism you have, the more likely it gets that someone's discipline will get overridden by emotions, be it the "need to prove something" in front of your squad (a very popular problem in the military ), hate and anger at a comrade's death, sexual arousal, etc. And then there are the crass contrasts between the battlefield and the civilian world many of these soldiers rotate in and out of when they're on leave. Vietnam, PTSD, and so on.

I knew a sergeant from the Canadian 22nd Royal Regiment that confessed to me once when he was drunk, that when he was in afghanistan, he killed a lot of people. When I asked him if he told me this because he was shaken by this, he told me "Not at all. Honeslty kids with guns are just that; people with guns. Either they shoot you, or you shoot them. My choice was easily made. And I made it a lot of time"

Maybe he was saying BS, but I don't think he was in any state to lie to me at this moment. And the guy doesn't seem to be a sociopath, just a soldier endoctrinated not to think but to act when in mission.

I think at some point, killing becomes second nature. Perhaps that state of mind already qualifies as sociopathic, and perhaps that is why he was drunk in the first place -- or why that topic apparently came to his mind when he was drunk, as otherwise the thought wouldn't occur to him or it is repressed by the mental shield he has built up.

A lot of veterans returning from wars require extensive psychological counsel, and some never really settle back into civilian life. Some even grab a gun and go kill random people, although these are, fortunately, rare outliers.

even if the 22nd Regiment is known to be one of the best of the Canadian army

Of course, the same used to be said about the Canadian Airborne Rgt. before the Somalia Affair ... :/

Although from what I've read, that unit should have never been sent there in the first place. Its specops section seemed to have suffered such intense disciplinary problems that I'm at a loss as to how such a formation was allowed to persist, not to mention sent on a peacekeeping mission.

That being said, its failings should not taint the name of other regiments. I bring it up more as another example for dispelling the myth of flawless discipline in special forces in general, rather than a comparison to the 22nd.

I think at some point, killing becomes second nature. Perhaps that state of mind already qualifies as sociopathic, and perhaps that is why he was drunk in the first place -- or why that topic apparently came to his mind when he was drunk, as otherwise the thought wouldn't occur to him or it is repressed by the mental shield he has built up.

The fact that he got drunk was no surprise, it was at the end of a medieval banquet (reenactment activity) and the end of the activity had been well served in alcohol. I called him because he was walking and speaking with people, showing his new warhammer (he was in the fighting team), so I spoke to him and eventually took his weapon because, being drunk, he was not safe for no one.

But yeah, the fact that he thought about speaking of this so easily is certainly of concern.

Of course, the same used to be said about the Canadian Airborne Rgt. before the Somalia Affair ... :/

You seem well informed. I'll take a look at this affair.

For fun, are you a fan of military history ?

The fact that he got drunk was no surprise, it was at the end of a medieval banquet (reenactment activity) and the end of the activity had been well served in alcohol.

Heh, alright -- hot mead is hard to resist in such an environment!

For fun, are you a fan of military history ?

I'm a fan of history in general -- but yeah, that is one of the areas I'm particularly interested in. I'm not exactly sure how it started, I think I must've picked it up from my dad, with whom I remember watching various war movies. Even when I was still a child, I already started reading books about WW2, and then just branched off from there. It certainly helped that there was a company producing well-written and illustrated pocket books that made the material easy to digest, though. An ideal start, you might say.

But I wouldn't call myself an expert or something .. for that, my reading has been far too "unfocused". I've read a lot, but I've chosen a wild variety of topics purely out of curiosity, rather than trying to attain a scholarly understanding of any particular subject.

Actually, there were not many good weapons against plate armour. Even crossbow weren't that good and deflected more often than not. The rare very good weapons against plate armour where warhammer and other kind of maces. But these were lacking handling, reach, and were easy to handle for an armoured knight.

Hook them with a halberd or similar polearm, get them on the floor, immobilise them and then stick them in the neck with a knife. Ok, yes, that isn't an easy proposition, especially seeing as the man-at-arms is going to be trained to avoid exactly this, but there were ways for less well equipped soldiers to take on a knight, as long they had the advantage of numbers. Good armour certainly made them much more survivable, but by no means invulnerable.

Warp travel isn't faster for Space Marines, for what I know. And a trained imperial guard regiment, already assembled (not a founding one), would not take two months to assemble at all. Unless you consider IG to be inferior to soldiers of the second world war, mustering troop for another operation wasn't that long.

Yeah, Space Marines are faster on the battlefield (faster vehiciles, more tactical flexibility because they operate in small numbers, etc.), but Storm Troopers and Elysian drop troops would also be.

And the increased sub-light speed isn't nothing. Depending on what fluff you look at much of the actual travel time is actually the travel from planet to warp jump points outside system (which takes weeks), and then back in again. The warp jumps themselves don't actually take that long (a few days from the ship's perspective, maybe a few more or a week or two from realspace perspective). But I will agree this is questionable, as some stuff seems to have them jumping within system, or in system flights taking much less time... all a matter of which canon you take to be the real one I guess.

Also, on arrival, the Imperial Guard have then got to get themselves down onto the planet. Space Marines have ships specially designed to drop them as quickly as possible from orbit, either by drop pod or Thunderhawk, right into the battle. Once the Imperial Guard arrive it will probably be days before they can go on true offensive operations. The Space Marines just need a little intelligence and an appropriate pass near the planet.

Hook them with a halberd or similar polearm, get them on the floor, immobilise them and then stick them in the neck with a knife. Ok, yes, that isn't an easy proposition, especially seeing as the man-at-arms is going to be trained to avoid exactly this, but there were ways for less well equipped soldiers to take on a knight, as long they had the advantage of numbers. Good armour certainly made them much more survivable, but by no means invulnerable.

Indeed. I didn't speak about it being invulnerable. I speak about it being not penetrable by regular weapons. But sure, a good soldiers will learn how to aim at weaknesses and such. The rest is in the hand of the knight to be good enough to avoid being in a position of vulnerability.

Even when I was still a child, I already started reading books about WW2, and then just branched off from there. It certainly helped that there was a company producing well-written and illustrated pocket books that made the material easy to digest, though. An ideal start, you might say.

Remembers to me the hours I passed at the library doing the same. I stopped when I became a teenage, so nowadays, I do not remeber much.

And the increased sub-light speed isn't nothing. Depending on what fluff you look at much of the actual travel time is actually the travel from planet to warp jump points outside system (which takes weeks), and then back in again. The warp jumps themselves don't actually take that long (a few days from the ship's perspective, maybe a few more or a week or two from realspace perspective). But I will agree this is questionable, as some stuff seems to have them jumping within system, or in system flights taking much less time... all a matter of which canon you take to be the real one I guess.

Yeah, because in some books, we speak about hours, when in others, we speak about days or even weeks.

Marines have a longer shelf life. Assuming they are not killed in action, a Stormtrooper will be combat effective for 10-20 years? While a Space Marine, again assuming they are not killed, would be combat effective for 200+ years. Blood Angels have an even longer shelf life, but they tend to have other "issues", which is why they are not the go to design.

From my point of view spacemarines are like knights in the medieval times: good for show but totally overrated on the great scheme of things.

Training a spacemarine is an nightmare: you need to find a compatible human that has the mental fortitude and the right body/health to survive the process, then you have to train it and equip it with weapons and armors that are actually relics (assuming you have enough geneseed to begin with).

Training any kind of other soldier is naturally easier and cheaper, now assuming the fact that "no matter how strong you are a horde will trumple you anyway" and considering that the cheapest and most common resource in the imperium are humans seems a logical choice to focus on cannon fodder and not on elite troops. For eldars is exactly the oppsite, they do not have enough bodies so they have to increase the skills and resources at disposal of their troops.

To make a parallel on real world history in WW2 german troops had a better training and better equipment than russians, after the first shock russian zerg won as the higher resources needed to keep german warmachine up and running were not easily found and production started to fall behind the war effort needs.

The factors to have a "winning war machine" are essentialy 3: logistic, technology and quantity. The balance between logistic and tech gives you the ability to improve your troops reducing the quantity you can field, better is your technological and logistic level less troops you need, but the only reason you have to improve your army beyond a certain point instead of making it bigger is to risk less lives, if life doesn't mean anything you will want an army that has just the minimum technological/skill level needed and the largest number of soldiers possible. Losing an elite soldier means losing a lot more resources and potential than losing a lowly soldier, while you can replace a lowly soldier easly and quickly you cannot replace an elite soldier as easily (same thing goes for veichles).

Romans knew this and infact the first rows of every centuria were made of rookies while the last rows were made of veterans, rookies were the ones soaking the furor of the enemy and sustaining the greatest impacts, this way veterans could fight risking less casualties and using their superior expertise against a tired enemy. Losing a common legonary wasn't a big deal, losing a veteran with 3 or even more years of battles on his shoulder was a tragedy.

The imperium has a terrible logistic (travel time and transportation) so would seem a good idea to have a super elite small army, but technology too isn't a strenght of the imperium leaving this choice out of the realm of possibility, the only option is to field cheap expendable troops in huge quantities even if the logistical level isn't capable of sustaining them.

When spacemarines were created the balance was totally different: technology was easier to get and logistic wasn't a real problem (the empire was smaller and the majority of wars were fought on the attacking side), there were less humans to send to die as cannon fodder and so on... At that time they made a lot of sense considering their morale (being able to fight against monsters never seen before) and the resources the imperium had. The reason i see spacemarines still out there is that they are the vestiges of a different era (not unlike samurai during ww2), they are like knightly oreders today, they still exists and have privileges out of tradition not because they are needed or even usefull, naturally spacemarines can be usefull but they do not win the big wars (at least in my vision), they win battles but the war is won by Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard, ofc imperial propaganda will say that Spacemarines won the day just like in medieval times songs were sung for knights and kings winning battles not for the masses of conscripts and serfs doing the big part.

The most usefull part of spacemarines are their ships, if we see at how many spacemarines are out there and how many ships they have proportionally they have a lot more ships than the imperial navy, if a chapter is able to bring a couple of battleships to war they can easily be something like 20% of the total force of a sector fleet making a difference!

The only exception imho are grey knights because they are the only one suited to fight against daemons and sending millions of "vanilla humans" against daemons is a good way to lose them to chaos.

Erm... Just my two cents is as long as you keep it ruffly in the lore, do what you want, I have Radios and Televisions in my Only war games, I just 40k it. So not every one has these things , but the 40k version of the middle class do, and it is super censored and full of propaganda and religious mobo jumbo and it's not a radio it's a Vox set . At the end of the day, ignore the lore nazis and have fun, that's what these games are for. To have fun. Of course if you go well out of the bounds of 40k it goes to say why bother with the setting, but minor things for day to day life just inject a healthy amount of grim dark and bolt shells into it and people should be happy.

Who is to say this world does not have a Hot dog stand?! the hot dog is most likely made from some "meat" that you do not ask where it came from, and it has been passed down for generations, from father to son for the past 100, but to say something is not there because it's not in a book is Idiotic. " Ives never heard about a toilet being used in any of the books thus war-hammer has no toilets!"

Also General rule of thumb for any Warhammer player if Dan Abnet writes it, its lore and is not to be questioned, and he has written about the Civilian life to different extents about different worlds, including tv, tanks that are not standard patterns, day to day lifes. Sandy Mitchel does to about Ciaphas cain. You read a few of those books you have a general idea of how life is. Again It's your game, and every world in the Imperium is different with it's own customs army's , food , culture you name it.

At the end of the day, ignore the lore nazis and have fun, that's what these games are for. To have fun.

You sure you don't wanna rephrase something?

At the end of the day, ignore the lore nazis and have fun, that's what these games are for. To have fun.

Also General rule of thumb for any Warhammer player if Dan Abnet writes it, its lore and is not to be questioned

You sure you don't wanna rephrase something?

Maybe But Dan Abnet is a god , you cnt argue with that.. It's heresy.Plus he just adds in alot of common sense that other 40k authors gloss over. Though not perfect.

Also General rule of thumb for any Warhammer player if Dan Abnet writes it, its lore and is not to be questioned

You sure you don't wanna rephrase something?

At least Abnett is the only BL author who knows how to put words into sentences . IMHO, of course.

At least Abnett is the only BL author who knows how to put words into sentences. IMHO, of course.

He also seems to be the only one who writes over-emotional, cursing servitors, tho.

He also seems to be the only one who writes over-emotional, cursing servitors, tho.

Well, Abnettverse... and this servitor is not my biggest complaint... But this is about "what he writes" - a nd I talked about " how he writes ".

That's true. As much as I like to criticise various author's penchant to deviate from the setting's original background, Abnett is a skilled writer, and he has some rather cool ideas every now and then.

He also seems to be the only one who writes over-emotional, cursing servitors, tho

I would like to know in which books, because there isn't many stuff I've not read of Abnett and this passed way under my radar.

Otherwise, to commissarwilliams:

Who is to say this world does not have a Hot dog stand?! the hot dog is most likely made from some "meat" that you do not ask where it came from, and it has been passed down for generations, from father to son for the past 100, but to say something is not there because it's not in a book is Idiotic. " Ives never heard about a toilet being used in any of the books thus war-hammer has no toilets!"

Agreed

Maybe But Dan Abnet is a god , you cnt argue with that.. It's heresy.Plus he just adds in alot of common sense that other 40k authors gloss over. Though not perfect.

Abnett is my favourite writer...but don't you think arguments are better than something that you think to be very good is certainly something other people can't argue with?

I would like to know in which books, because there isn't many stuff I've not read of Abnett and this passed way under my radar.

You asked me that on page 1, and I linked a quote .

Indeed, sorry for this.

Honestly, there is one place he says a "pilot servitor" and the rest he says pilot. To me, it seems more likley that it is a writing mistake than anything else. The kind of, he wanted to write about a servitor, and then decided the guy would be a real pilot, and the word servitor was forgotten there.

When I don't reread many times my texts, I find these mistakes, and many books have those too.

Otherwise, it is servitor as in the context of servant, and not braindead machine.

He calls him a servitor on multiple occasions, and the character specifically points out how he is "hardwired to drive underboats". Yes, perhaps the author still meant it simply as "servant" rather than "servitor", but if so, he should have used that word instead of another that meant something else and very specific in this setting.

Honestly, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... there is a reason it's called the Abnettverse . No reason to assume a mistake when the author has a reputation of altering some details to suit his own ideas, especially in a franchise that is kind of notorious for authors doing this all the time.

I assume this simply comes with the position of writing for Black Library. Dan Abnett is one of GW's most long-standing and influential authors, and when the writers are actively encouraged to come up with their own versions of the setting (just as the players are), it is only natural that the more you write, the more contradictions would arise. Minor ones, usually, as Black Library still enforces some sort of uniformity, but contradictions nonetheless.

It's just part of the IP. Just like Dark Heresy and the other RPGs do not gel 100% with codex fluff either. I really had a problem with this at first, but by now I've arrived at the "acceptance" stage and just pick what I like, which is apparently the intended way to deal with this setting.

Things can go wrong when making a servitor. Maybe the lobotomists drill didn't go in deep enough or the machine spirit went ornery and now you got servitor with tourette's syndrome. (Wonderfull!)

That too, although personally I would presume that such defects would be sorted out before they leave the, uh, assembly plant. Then again, never say never -- it's a big galaxy.

But this reminds me of another thread that was a rather interesting journey into the various interpretations and possibilities in regards to how servitors actually "work".

I think most Admech don't give a hoot about servtor quircks aslong as they can perform their primary function at top capacity.

Admech 41: " Hey 808, can you have a look at this servitor, it keeps cursing at random intervals. I think the lobotomy didn't take.."

Admech 808: "The lobotomy was completed at 99.8% success rate. It's the machine spirit: It's angry, and why shouldn't it be? We're putting sacred tech in the unwashed bodies of scum and heretics! What haved they done to deserve such boon? Put some more blessed ungents on it, it will be fine."

Admech 41: " It's still bugging me, I'm gonna cauterise it's vocal cords, remove the lower jawbone and sew it's lips shut."

Admech 808: "No time! Our production quota is slipping by 0.2% because of your fidgeting! Come and help me with the next one!"

Ah, but cursing denotes agitation -- a condition of the feeble human mind where cold logic is replaced by *shudder* emotional response and base instinct, increasing the capacity for error.

I get what you're saying, though. In the end, as with most things 40k, it comes down to personal preferences.. it's just not something I'd see working out in my version of the setting, where the AdMech would be too hardcore to let something like that slip through. Unless it was some sort of intentional sabotage, I suppose!