I think your players need to get laid...

GM: "Jeez, guys! Lay off the torture for a while will you? It's getting boring and making me uncomfortable."

Tom: "Sez the guy who has the book of Vile Darkness for D&D."

GM: "That's because y'all wanted to play anti-paladins! Seriously you guys need to get laid!"

Bruce: "Yeah you're right, any SM dungeons or dominas around here?"

GM: "Oh FFS!"

I'd actually be a lot happier not doing it at all. The other day they went into detail about cutting off a dudes nipples and I genuinely got creeped out but just don't want to say anything. Taking away their details might make them leave. This being my only available group puts me at a disadvantage if we disagree on things :/

...Wow.

First of all, you're the GM. I tend to think of Star Wars as a 12 rating, so I don't use real swear words or show explicit sexytimes in my EotE game anyway because it doesn't seem right; I elide right over it. Someone pulling that nonsense would get a pointed telling-off.

The second thing is that in real life, unlike in 24 , torture doesn't work. In the real world, torture just encourages people to tell you what they think you want in return for stopping.

So I'd start throwing in people who are innocent and lead them to do horrible things to people who may be bad people but then turn out not to be. With bonus points for leaving grieving wives and children behind and with poeple looking to do horrible things to them in return. See how they like torture then.

The mission from GTAV (I won't link it given the content) is a great example of what I'm on about and if a player kept on like Trevor (doing it for the torture boner), I'd remind them that this is Star Wars , not Saw . Solo wouldn't torture anyone, and even if he did, it would all be off-screen. Like the scenes of Han being tortured in Cloud City.

I'd actually be a lot happier not doing it at all. The other day they went into detail about cutting off a dudes nipples and I genuinely got creeped out but just don't want to say anything. Taking away their details might make them leave. This being my only available group puts me at a disadvantage if we disagree on things :/

What the ****?

Dude, send these immature twats packing and find a new group.

Are there legitimate solutions to the problem? Sure, and they have been suggested in the thread if you are hard set on playing with these assholes, but no game is better than a **** one if you ask me. It's more their loss than yours.

Also, this. If you can't get a group locally, fire up Skype (other video call services are available) and do it online. The great thing about the internet is that we don't have to put up with local tools.

To answer the original question: Any torture!?

As everyone else has said, talk to the players.

If they are not willing to budge on the issue AND you still want to run the game, then tell them you are implementing Morality for all characters AND giving them a 20 point Criminal obligation plus an additional 10 point Obligation bump for every person they torture thereafter. If they persist they will soon drop massively on the the Morality scale affecting their game AND gain so much Obligation they will not be able to spend XP.

Sounds like they rather be villains.

Although I agree with the many suggestions to talk to the players, one thing I'm curious about is why are the players doing it? The answer to that leads to different conversations.

For example, if they're doing it "in character" to prove how tough and horrible their characters are, that's one thing. If they're doing it because they're used to playing something more unsavory rather than Star Wars, that's a different conversation. If they genuinely LIKE this on a regular basis, the conversation should be "Um, get a new GM."

As a few folks have pointed out, this is Star Wars. Star Wars comes with a certain feel to it, and brutal, graphic torture ain't it. Even Star Wars' more adult cousin, Firefly, doesn't depict graphic scenes of torture -- and most of what we do see is inflicted on the heroes.

If these guys genuinely enjoy this stuff and this is really what they're looking for in a game, they maybe shouldn't be playing Star Wars. I mean, sure, you can bend the frame of reference to meet the needs of your group, but there reaches a point at which the bending breaks something, and cutting a dude's nipples off seems to be it.

On the other hand, though, maybe this is only a temporary urge that can be sated. For many years, I primarily GM'd superhero games, and I would notice that periodically the players would get fed up by being forced to play by the rules all the time. So, we'd periodically take a break from the main game and I'd run a short (1-2 session) game where they got to play villains or mercenaries. And they were HORRIBLE. One time, they destroyed the world (that was after blowing up a busload of nuns and beheading a dog!) But they'd get it out of their systems, then go back to being upstanding heroes for a year or two. It was kind of like the movie THE PURGE!

First, if you have any F&D PCs in your party they are scr*wed (unless they are happy to go Dark Side). Allowing, benefiting from, and worse committing torture, is a serious amount of Conflict.

Second, one of the most difficult things about running games like EotE, FireFly, and Shadowrun is a lack of understanding the difference between Heroes doing criminal things to achieve a greater goal and being an actual Criminal. One side are the characters we see in films and TV like Star Wars (Han & Chewy), FireFly, Guardians of the Galaxy, even the Riddick films. They are bada$$es, generally selfish, and have no problem killing when it must be done but they are still essentially good. Criminals on the other hand are F'n CRIMINALS, they don't kill they murder, they don't interrogate they torture, they use their martial abilities to not only defeat their foes but to brutalize them, they prey on the weak and defenceless, they're bullies and thugs.

For example, if they're doing it "in character" to prove how tough and horrible their characters are, that's one thing. If they're doing it because they're used to playing something more unsavory rather than Star Wars, that's a different conversation. If they genuinely LIKE this on a regular basis, the conversation should be "Um, get a new GM."

As a few folks have pointed out, this is Star Wars. Star Wars comes with a certain feel to it, and brutal, graphic torture ain't it. Even Star Wars' more adult cousin, Firefly, doesn't depict graphic scenes of torture -- and most of what we do see is inflicted on the heroes.

If these guys genuinely enjoy this stuff and this is really what they're looking for in a game, they maybe shouldn't be playing Star Wars. I mean, sure, you can bend the frame of reference to meet the needs of your group, but there reaches a point at which the bending breaks something, and cutting a dude's nipples off seems to be it.

Agreed, I've always tried to make it clear that in EotE at the point the Player's PCs begin no matter what their back story may be they have now entered a new stage in their lives, they are now Heroes in the Star Wars universe. The paradigm has shifted for them. They don't have to be saints, they don't have to run into burning buildings to save puppies, they don't even have to help others, but if they are going to play like Criminals, they can play in another group.

I'd actually be a lot happier not doing it at all. The other day they went into detail about cutting off a dudes nipples and I genuinely got creeped out but just don't want to say anything. Taking away their details might make them leave. This being my only available group puts me at a disadvantage if we disagree on things :/

This is the point at which I'd probably try to have an honest chat with the players.

Personally, I prefer to keep closer to the range of stuff you might actually see in a Star Wars movie or TV show. People get their arms cut off in combat, and people are tortured every now and then, but generally 'off camera'. They showed Han Solo strapped to that electrical thing and then closed the door. They showed the ball droid with the syringe floating toward Leia and then closed the door.

If that's how you feel, I'd talk to the players about it.

Now, the other part about torture is that it generally doesn't actually work. It always works on shows like 24 but if you have your players' victims tell them ANYTHING to get the torture to stop. So the PCs spend time and resources following up leads which are phony and unreliable.

That's if they're torturing for information. If they're torturing for FUN, then ... back to having a chat with the players.

I have always disliked the mantra that torture produces false information. Firstly, it's not always true. Torture frequently produces false information, that's not the same thing. People keep holding up this example of someone who doesn't know and just makes up anything in order to stop the pain. But often enough they do know and / or you have easy means of confirming if they're telling the truth or not. Certainly it is unreliable as a means of information gathering - that is beyond dispute. But really it's just playing into the hands of torture advocates who could and would very easily turn round and say "but if there's a 40% chance of finding out where the bomb is, that's still worthwhile". Opponents of torture seize on its unreliability because they think it lets them shoot down their opponents' arguments. It's a "but it doesn't even work" card they are addicted to playing. But I think that's dangerous because all it's really doing is accepting their opponents' terms that it's about whether it works or not. And that's NOT why we oppose it. We aren't rejecting torture because we think it has too low a success rate. We are rejecting it because it is wrong.

There is no reason to accept the torture proponent's own values in order to argue with them. It's a delicious temptation to do so for someone who opposes torture but it's a trap. Torture is wrong because inflicting prolonged suffering on another person is wrong. Of course we get people then proposing the "24 hours to find the bomb" scenarios to justify their case. Something that is usually every bit as contrived as the idea that torture can never yield true information. Could the '24 hour bomb' scenario happen? Sure. Has it? Never to my knowledge. Torture is used routinely in many despotic regimes in order to force confessions, to make people turn in their friends or give evidence against someone they don't wish to or to betray their country or fellow soldiers. I do not believe torture is justified. I don't think abducting any of the people in Guantanamo and near drowning them in the hopes they might have information on their friends or give up suitable locations to bomb was justified. I don't think routine torture of people - including pregnant women - by police in Mexico, is justified. Punishment usually comes after the crime, not as a means to determine guilt.

I oppose torture because it is used on guilty and innocent alike without due process. I oppose it because it is barbaric to inflict such suffering. I oppose it because it is used to take away choice and turn people into informants on their friends, family members and fellow soldiers. I oppose it because I will not inflict pain on someone over and over as a more convenient alternative when other ways to get what I want are too long or difficult for me to bother with. I oppose it because every time I see it, it is a tool for those with power to maintain control over those without.

I refuse to oppose it on the grounds that it isn't efficient enough. The moment I do someone will come up with an argument how it is. And that's not why I detest torture so I'm not going to give them that chance. I understand why so many people grab onto the unreliability of torture to make their case - it's very tempting to think you can just pull the rug out from underneath your opponent's feet. But it's accepting their terms and it can and will come back to bite us if we do that. I don't believe I've ever seen a non-hypothetical justification for torture that satisfies me. I doubt I ever will.

I would not enjoy having my players use it as fun thing to role-play.

Send in the droids, or use aliens that don't feel pain.

Reduce the chances the party have for torture.

If it persists I'd kill a pc, have whoever is being tortured crack a cyanide capsule and breath the gas on the nearest pc (dune style) killing them both.

Are your players really young and immature little boys and girls who sorely need some action or extremely old and bitter war verterans with issues, who have seen way too much action?....

Send in the droids, or use aliens that don't feel pain.

Reduce the chances the party have for torture.

If it persists I'd kill a pc, have whoever is being tortured crack a cyanide capsule and breath the gas on the nearest pc (dune style) killing them both.

Or they simply pass out from the pain.

No one has said it Only Produces False results.

But the fact that the frequently produces False results makes All Results Suspect.

Data also suggest that Torture produces more false results and True results...

So it makes the Use of Torture unreliable.

Now of course, we are talking about Physical Torture.

there are other Interrogation methods, that could fall under Mental or Psychological "Torture", though others might call it manipulation, that have been found to provide better results.

Consolidating what I've read above mixed with some of my own thoughts:

• Spell it out in game terms what torture does. First, make it a secret GM roll so the PCs don't know if the tortured NPC gave up false information or not. Explain the way to get information is through Charm or Coercion. Torture of course only works with Coercion. Torture gives a Bonus die per "level of nastiness", but each level of torture also gives 1? 2? automatic Disadvantage to the roll? Failure means he didn't talk. But, the GM can use Disadvantage in varying amounts to give false information or kill the tortured. Or something like this. Point out the advantages of using torture are at least muted by the disadvantages.
• OBLIGATION from torture. Bounty hunters, lawmen, and friends/family of the tortured come to kill PCs, imprison for a session or two, and/or take their stuff.
• Perhaps a revenge-seeker tortures a captured PC and gives him a permanent mental or physical injury: 1 Setback to any Intellect-based actions due to poor concentration, or 1 Strain applied from time to time by the GM due to flashbacks (anytime you see a knife!), or a lame hand (1 setback) due to missing fingers, etc.

Give them real penalties in-game to the torture use and they will hopefully move on to something more efficient. Or, they are just sickos and sorry you need to get a new group.

Opponents of torture seize on its unreliability because they think it lets them shoot down their opponents' arguments. It's a "but it doesn't even work" card they are addicted to playing. But I think that's dangerous because all it's really doing is accepting their opponents' terms that it's about whether it works or not. And that's NOT why we oppose it. We aren't rejecting torture because we think it has too low a success rate. We are rejecting it because it is wrong.

Of course I 100% agree, although I could get into a discussion about the usefulness (or lack thereof) of unreliable data, but you are arguing about why actual real torture is wrong and abhorrent. It is. We know this. I can't imagine many people owning up to thinking otherwise. But this isn't a forum about the ethics of military intelligence; this discussion is not about real torture, it's about some immature gamers who are using torture in their game when they would probably never condone it in real life and if they were better at roleplaying their characters would probably not be doing it. These are their same sort of players who think it's ok for a LG Paladin to murder some guy because he has a cool sword the player wants.

Forget about the torture aspect, the fact is that the players are doing something that the GM doesn't want them to do. @Metsys509 has already told us that he doesn't want to leave the group and find new players, and would rather avoid telling them to stop directly. So the remaining option is to change their behaviour indirectly. A lot of people are talking about the aggressive approach and "punishing" them with various attacks and so forth, but even if we didn't already know that anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering, conflict is actually a main part of the entertainment of the game we're playing and would almost be another kind of reward. Instead I advocate a more passive approach of behaviour modification (yes, it's like training a puppy, sad really) by removing the benefits and thus they get no fun or benefits from it. In this case the problem behaviour is torture, and the way to remove the benefit is to simply give no useful information, and the explaination is the very real "because torture victims (often) just say whatever you want to hear and it's impossible to know what information is useful and true and what isn't.

Opponents of torture seize on its unreliability because they think it lets them shoot down their opponents' arguments. It's a "but it doesn't even work" card they are addicted to playing. But I think that's dangerous because all it's really doing is accepting their opponents' terms that it's about whether it works or not. And that's NOT why we oppose it. We aren't rejecting torture because we think it has too low a success rate. We are rejecting it because it is wrong.

In this case the problem behaviour is torture, and the way to remove the benefit is to simply give no useful information, and the explaination is the very real "because torture victims (often) just say whatever you want to hear and it's impossible to know what information is useful and true and what isn't.

Well, unless your interrogator has Sense with the Control upgrade that lets them read surface thoughts...

To quote a character from a Spy Show: "The fact is, torture is for thugs and sadists. Its like grocery shopping with a flamethrower; it doesn't work and it makes a mess." If the group keeps this up as a method of play, then start throwing them all kinds of red herrings and false leads. And if they still can't figure it out, then just get another group.

My experience is that almost everyone is against torture, though there's a lot of disagreement about what constitutes torture. (This is true with many things, the disagreement is in the definition.)

It sounds to me like it's gotten to the point where it's no longer fun for you. I would echo the advice of those who have said to talk to your players. Remind them that their supposed to be heroes and as such, act heroically. When they act as they do it makes you uncomfortable. If they're too unreasonable to heed what you have to say, then you're probably better off not gaming with them. Of course, it's always possible that if you quit the group, that will be a wake up call and they'll behave better, but I wouldn't count on it.

Opponents of torture seize on its unreliability because they think it lets them shoot down their opponents' arguments. It's a "but it doesn't even work" card they are addicted to playing. But I think that's dangerous because all it's really doing is accepting their opponents' terms that it's about whether it works or not. And that's NOT why we oppose it. We aren't rejecting torture because we think it has too low a success rate. We are rejecting it because it is wrong.

In this case the problem behaviour is torture, and the way to remove the benefit is to simply give no useful information, and the explaination is the very real "because torture victims (often) just say whatever you want to hear and it's impossible to know what information is useful and true and what isn't.

Well, unless your interrogator has Sense with the Control upgrade that lets them read surface thoughts...

Sure, but then why do you need torture? In most media I've read/seen (comics and the like) surface thought reading telepaths can ask someone a question, and that will prompt their subject to think of the answer even if they don't say it, unless the subject knows you have a telepath and are actively trying to think of other things.

For example.. hmmm... ok, in the Marvel universe Shield Director Maria Hill does it to Spiderman in the wake of M Day to find out about it. She sits him in a room and asks him a bunch of questions which he refuses to answer but unbeknownst to him in the next room there are a bunch of low grade telepaths pulling his surface thoughts off.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I spoke to my players and they agreed to tone it down. From now on when they do torture they're gonna just roll the dice and then we skip to the end. No more uncomfortable details or role playing to bog down the session.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I spoke to my players and they agreed to tone it down. From now on when they do torture they're gonna just roll the dice and then we skip to the end. No more uncomfortable details or role playing to bog down the session.

Sounds like a good result. You must be glad you asked them.

"I oppose torture because it is used on guilty and innocent alike without due process. I oppose it because it is barbaric to inflict such suffering. I oppose it because it is used to take away choice and turn people into informants on their friends, family members and fellow soldiers. I oppose it because I will not inflict pain on someone over and over as a more convenient alternative when other ways to get what I want are too long or difficult for me to bother with. I oppose it because every time I see it, it is a tool for those with power to maintain control over those without."

Can I be your sidekick.

Seriously though, That is the best statement I have ever heard in my 40 plus years on this planet. Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity.

My experience is that almost everyone is against torture, though there's a lot of disagreement about what constitutes torture.

Tru that. I think any use of fear or pain in interrogation is dancing with the torture devil. However I am in the minority these days which I accept.

From now on when they do torture they're gonna just roll the dice and then we skip to the end.

Not sure that you've solved the real problem here but if it keeps you from sitting alone and playing the latest shoot them all and take their loot video game then it's a win.

I think if they still insist that they are torturing their characters need to be punished for it. Actions have consequences and that is what role playing is all about. Ignoring that makes it a shoot and loot video game.