So I've been fiddling around with the list-builder and am starting to doubt that I'll have much use for the VSDs in future. Building around a Vader ISDII with 2 Raiders for anti-squadron support and to help pin down more mobile ships I'm finding that an upgraded VSD will come in close to a naked ISD but always be inferior in most ways. Consider the two below. I can see it being used as a cheaper fighter carrier, but what other uses will people more experienced than me have for them?

The vsd is far more efficient than the isd

In a straight dice off, x points of vsds should easily trump x points of isd

Think of them as slow lumps of hull and shields. Give them an upgrade (like tractor beams eh?) And just toss em in

The heavily upgraded vsd probably lost its place because the isd is a far more stable and maneuverable platform, but being significantly cheaper and having REALLY big targets to chase around will give the VSD all the reason it needs to exist

Definetly running a Vader isd with two tractor beam vsds as escorts

Vic I with ACM = measly 80 points.

Vic II with Gunnery teams = 92 points.

So for a cheap, tanky ship the Vic is great. Just don't expect it to be fast or agile.

Though the ISD actually can move faster, correct? Any sense on how much more slowly it turns? I was thinking the added hull and dice all-around would make the ISD better at tanking, but I've not gotten all that many games in.

There might be some use for a VSD-I as a dedicated carrier. Corruptor with hangar ticks in at 83 pts and is a fairly good plattform to fling bombers at people. However playing around with the fleet generator I can see your point, kitting out a VSD-II to reach the ISDs firepower (let alone survivability) is depressing at best. If you are looking for raw firepower from a sturdy plattform there is little need for VSDs Im afraid..

The vsd puts put more firepower per point spent than the ISD

You need to upgrade the ISD for offensive output, not the VSD

As funny as it seems, the ISD is actually a precision instrument while the vsd is more of a hammer. Putting a ton of points in one power activation requires a good degree of finesse to get good results out of

Otherwise, the isd can either get exposed and focused down or stuck away from the fight

A vsd can do the same, but it's obviously far less of a loss either way

But the isd is only one ship, with all the limitations that entails. Two shots, ok shields and only 11 hull.

Though the ISD actually can move faster, correct? Any sense on how much more slowly it turns? I was thinking the added hull and dice all-around would make the ISD better at tanking, but I've not gotten all that many games in.

The ISD turns better, even at full speed.

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I think this will make it the "center" piece for a fleet, but the VSDs should still have a place.

Though the ISD actually can move faster, correct? Any sense on how much more slowly it turns? I was thinking the added hull and dice all-around would make the ISD better at tanking, but I've not gotten all that many games in.

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Aka assault frigate chart

Easier to remember that way

Though the ISD actually can move faster, correct? Any sense on how much more slowly it turns? I was thinking the added hull and dice all-around would make the ISD better at tanking, but I've not gotten all that many games in.

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Aka assault frigate chart

Easier to remember that way

Well, easier for Rebel scum, maybe.

Another way to look at it: 45 degree turns at speed 2 (and 3) without navigating

It's less efficient than the vsd but more easily able to bring its arc to bear (if you don't get its fat ass caught on other ships ofc)

It further seperates the ISD as a precision instrument (because it makes itself easier to apply) to the VSD's hammer (better cost:stat ratio, a lot more stiff)

Which is why you might lose your vsd 2 dominators (though the vsd 1 is only 85 for more punch than the isd 1) and maybe even your warlords (though they get gunnery, h9, and warlord before you get a naked isd)

The hyper upgraded big gun is ISD turf, as is antiship carrier. A lot of people screw this up, but if you want to support bombers you do so by getting a bigger gun; so that you throw out the max dice per a single activation

Between cheri and relentless, the isd can make a foreboding squadron ship

The VSD, meanwhile, makes an ideal platform for anti-squadron carrier (controllers, hangar; no need to waste the isd's activation plinking at fighters)

And it makes the ideal spam/escort ship due to its better point:stat ratio. With Vader in tow, they cab even find a niche as a decent long range ship (four reds with rerolls)

Tractor beams will probably be most at home on them as well, as they can work through navigates when used in bulk and because large ships dont really need to be pinned down like small ships or assault frigates

I don't think we'll see much in the way of VSD-2s anymore (if you did at all, beyond dominator) but the VSD-1 isn't going anywhere

Right now I like the VSD 2 with overload pulse, followed by avenger.

Thanks for the info. I didn't get to see the ISD in action since people at mine were tired, and I've been thinking in terms of blue dice since getting beaten up with some overload pulses. A VSDI that runs a bit ahead of the ISD and throws black dice while getting in the way could be pretty good though. Since my second list is probably throwing too much into upgrades, how does the first one look? Potentially viable? I was also thinking of escorting a kitted out ISDII with a number of raider IIs using overload pulses, but they'll probably just be space dust too soon.

I wouldn't dismiss VSDs easily. For instance a couple of them can flank an ISD-II and advance a wall of firepower at your opponent, and at blue range that means it's much easier to engage instead of waiting to be effective until your enemy is almost passing you. Overload pulses and other blue-critical effects also of course trigger easily out of blue dice.

The increase in points means you can comfortably upgrade the center and escorts. So where a squeezed VSD + 2xGSD worked in Wave 1, now you can upgrade them to an ISD + 2x VSD. There should be some points left also, for upgrades and/or a fighter screen.

In the end, VSDs are cruisers to your ISD Battleships. If you need cheaper staying power at all use a VSD. I don't think they're going anywhere.

Big question, Tractor on your ISD or VSD? I dream of tractoring the MC80 "Engine" of a Rebel train and watching the wreck.

Big question, Tractor on your ISD or VSD? I dream of tractoring the MC80 "Engine" of a Rebel train and watching the wreck.

it's got 2 speed; can undo your tractor beam with a single navigate and isn't terribly speedy to begin ith

not really a great use of tractor beam

the VSD is a more efficient platform but, lacking that, the ISD is fine because it still hits all other ship types

Big question, Tractor on your ISD or VSD? I dream of tractoring the MC80 "Engine" of a Rebel train and watching the wreck.

it's got 2 speed; can undo your tractor beam with a single navigate and isn't terribly speedy to begin ith

not really a great use of tractor beam

the VSD is a more efficient platform but, lacking that, the ISD is fine because it still hits all other ship types

Efficency? Well, it might not be the smart play, but the LOLz if you ever pulled it off.

Big question, Tractor on your ISD or VSD? I dream of tractoring the MC80 "Engine" of a Rebel train and watching the wreck.

it's got 2 speed; can undo your tractor beam with a single navigate and isn't terribly speedy to begin ith

not really a great use of tractor beam

the VSD is a more efficient platform but, lacking that, the ISD is fine because it still hits all other ship types

Efficency? Well, it might not be the smart play, but the LOLz if you ever pulled it off.

but pull what off, exactly?

Tractor Beams are weird because they won't drop you lower than Speed 1, which means VSDs and Mon Cals are basically immune if they use a navigate command

this holds true for any ship really (Reduce their speed by 1, they nav to crank up by 1) but if you stack tractor beams, you can drop GSDs from 3 to 1 or Raiders from 4 to 2/1 and only Tarkin or Admiral "You have failed me for the last time" can really save them there

Basically, I'm predicting that Tractor beams will be more effective when you have more of them on the table

because the only large ships are the Mon Cal (slowwwwww, or immune to tractor beams anyway with Engine Techs) and the IDS (big fat bastard you wants to come at you, bro, anyway), you don't need an ISD to use it effectively because the VSD will affect every speedy ship in the game from AFmk2s down to CR90s

so the cheaper, medium sized VSD is the perfect imperial carrier for it

the ISD can take it just fine, but you may want to throw some extras on VSD-1s to get the most out of it

Big question, Tractor on your ISD or VSD? I dream of tractoring the MC80 "Engine" of a Rebel train and watching the wreck.

it's got 2 speed; can undo your tractor beam with a single navigate and isn't terribly speedy to begin ith

not really a great use of tractor beam

the VSD is a more efficient platform but, lacking that, the ISD is fine because it still hits all other ship types

Efficency? Well, it might not be the smart play, but the LOLz if you ever pulled it off.

but pull what off, exactly?

Tractor Beams are weird because they won't drop you lower than Speed 1, which means VSDs and Mon Cals are basically immune if they use a navigate command

this holds true for any ship really (Reduce their speed by 1, they nav to crank up by 1) but if you stack tractor beams, you can drop GSDs from 3 to 1 or Raiders from 4 to 2/1 and only Tarkin or Admiral "You have failed me for the last time" can really save them there

Basically, I'm predicting that Tractor beams will be more effective when you have more of them on the table

because the only large ships are the Mon Cal (slowwwwww, or immune to tractor beams anyway with Engine Techs) and the IDS (big fat bastard you wants to come at you, bro, anyway), you don't need an ISD to use it effectively because the VSD will affect every speedy ship in the game from AFmk2s down to CR90s

so the cheaper, medium sized VSD is the perfect imperial carrier for it

the ISD can take it just fine, but you may want to throw some extras on VSD-1s to get the most out of it

Did your mother ever let you have fun?

K, imagine your opponent has his fleet following his MC80, all at speed 3, except for the MC80. Maybe it is being handed tokens by a CR 90, maybe it's spamming manuver to fuel the engine techs. Anywho a Raider messes with that and your ISD slowes the MC80 to 1. Then you get to sit back and giggle as you watch his whole line try to avoid each other. Not an efficent use of points, but it was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the tractor and how slow the MC80 is. Will I ever pull it off, probably not, but still worth trying.

The Victory Star Destroyer with fewer upgrades will find a home in many of my builds. I no longer have to rely on it and upgrade it to be my carrier.

The VSD will be a great point sink to escort the ISD. I'd say the ISD is the perfect base for a carrier without sacrificing potential output. The VSD is begging to be stacked with upgrades to make it silly.

The Victory Star Destroyer with fewer upgrades will find a home in many of my builds. I no longer have to rely on it and upgrade it to be my carrier.

Same here. A pretty bare-bones VSD seems like a great flank guardian for an ISD. You'll want it to be somewhat behind the ISD to catch sneaky Rebels. Furthermore, you'll want more activations and simply doubling down on ISDs deprives you of activations pretty strongly.

The vsd puts put more firepower per point spent than the ISD

You need to upgrade the ISD for offensive output, not the VSD

Could you elaborate on that please? If you calculate bow firepower the VSD II pays 14,1pts per die, the ISD II pays 12. Calculating all-around firepower (14 dice on a VSD, 21 dice on an ISD) its 6 pts per die on the VSD against 5,7 pts per die on the ISD. Braking it down on ranges is not going to cut it as the relation of long/medium firepower on both ships is equal/bow or very similar (all around). Not mentioning that your ISD platform carrying that firepower is actually more durable and more agile.

ISD II pays 15pts per bow dice, not 12 (8 dice, 120pts). Think your numbers are off a little there chap.

The vsd puts put more firepower per point spent than the ISD

You need to upgrade the ISD for offensive output, not the VSD

Could you elaborate on that please? If you calculate bow firepower the VSD II pays 14,1pts per die, the ISD II pays 12. Calculating all-around firepower (14 dice on a VSD, 21 dice on an ISD) its 6 pts per die on the VSD against 5,7 pts per die on the ISD. Braking it down on ranges is not going to cut it as the relation of long/medium firepower on both ships is equal/bow or very similar (all around). Not mentioning that your ISD platform carrying that firepower is actually more durable and more agile.

VSD II = 85 pts, 6 front dice = 14 pts/dice

ISD II = 120 pts, 8 front dice = 15 pts/dice