Signatures are so small here:

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3rd edition got me back into RPGs after 15 years of hiatus - just because of the innovative new mechanics relate to dice and cards.

The last game before 3rd ed happened to be 2nd ed.

Why sometimes the cards can be a bit limiting for thinking of options for players, they should not. This is for GM to emphasize.

Editing of the products has been not satisfactory: errors, unclear rules (remember the base difficulty missing for spellcasting!) and varying semantics ("+1 critical", "one critical" etc)

While I've enjoyed the new approach and all the great (content-wise) expansions I was a little surprised to see this Guides/Vaults strategy to get the best of two worlds. Now reading the forums of numerous people asking what should I buy related to the game, I'm afraid it may actually work against the popularity, unity and continuity of the game.

I came into 3ed relatively late. Though I was aware of the previous editions, I was never submerged into the subcultures surrounding them - so I had no bias against 3ed. At the time, I was simply dabbling in an RP game to purchase. I already knew people who had the various 40k systems, and DnD is naturally everywhere, so it didn't seem sensical to purchase into those. Thus, I turned to WFRP 3ed.

This, ofcourse, means I came to this board after the storm of negativity.

I've seen a *lot* of criticism thrown against the game, quite aggressively. However... I've rarely seen actual constructed criticism (any I've seen, has been here). The majority of criticism I see these days... is that it's simply different, and people use its unique components as a spring board for deploration. I still see people casually mention how it's a board game, which baffles me, since they clearly know very little regarding it, and are simply using what they can to attack a different product.

I've seen people say it's not as dark and gritty... which I also found odd, because my perception has been that that is something that the GM helps establish.

I've also seen a lot of the online community (particularly /tg/, which is *quite* venomous towards 3ed), display mass displeasure regarding how relatively hard it is to play online. Considering that it seems a very large percentage of people in these online communities primarially play their systems online in this way, I suppose it leads to a distorted image of the dissatisfaction.

And, in general... I've mostly just seen people who are simply uncomfortable trying something *different*. On one hand, you have people who are unwilling to go through the process of learning a system again, prefering to slide between familiar "classic" systems with ease, forgetting what they had to learn when they started RP, and rather seeing the learning process as evidence of overcomplication and mess.

Players who are unwilling to leave their "DnD safety zone". Others also seem to perceive WFRP (3ed specifically, since it's the most recent and publicized iteration) as a cash in, due to the association with the Warhammer brand - putting out of mind that WFRP is one of the more seasoned systems. I suppose this could be due to the fact that "it's not DnD", combined with the fact that it's based on a franchise that's not commonly linked with roleplaying (despite the fact that Warhammer's birth was through a custom roleplaying suppliment).

I had one associate grow defensive when I told her how I personally preferred WFRP 3ed's dice system to the more "traditional" dice system, to which she replied "you only like it, because you want to like it" - relating to my enjoyment of the Warhammer franchise in general (which, I've noticed, seems to have void my opinions on many matters...). She's the type to get aggressive and defensive when people like things that "compete" with what she likes. (She was playing a WoD vampire system at the time, after having moved from DnD to "try something different", ironically). Unfortunately, there seem to be quite a few people like her.

It's frustrating because, every person I've had to actually try the game, seasoned and newbie roleplayers alike, have loved it.

My only personal criticisms for the game would be the space needed to run it, since cards and sheets really eat up table room, and the fact that browsing through action cards at character creation is really intimidating and overhwelming for players, who end up choosing abilities they don't fully understand, and tend to take time on their turns reading everything they have. Though, I've since written up a PDF document listing every single action in the game (up to Signs of Faith), giving explanations, and summaries as to their effects and use. I've found players are far more understanding of the abilities they are choosing, when they read them from such a document, so that's helped overcome that criticism. Finding a place to play is still tricky, though...

Real criticism should be targeted to the fact that the same content is sold separately in three different formats: guides, cards (vaults) and pdfs. While PDF is clearly optional the guides and vaults are supplementary to each other, even to the level that Creature Vault is not 100% stand alone without Creature Guide.

Come on - even music and video industry is not charging you separately for CD/DVD + download these days.

It should be fair to players: Buy "Signs of Faith", get Guide, Cards and access to PDF.

The problem is that they then have to build that PDF charge into the sale price of the physical components, and they have to make it high enough to offset all of the people who will just pirate the PDF, meaning that they would price out those of us who might want the physical components and not the PDF.

GravitysAngel said:

There's an error in this line of thought. You don't discourage piracy by raising prices. You discourage it by lowering them.

In any case, I do see a lot of constructive criticism for WFRP3. My personal impression that while there are some really interesting ideas behind the system, the execution leaves a lot to be desired. I see people on various boards trying to figure out how to fix the parts that are broken. That's pretty constructive, if you ask me.

What I don't understand are people who don't like WFRP3 at all, yet they come here to a WFRP3 forum and an enormous amount of energy in bitching about it. What do they get out of that? If they don't like it, why don't they go play something they do like, and invest their energy in a forum about that? The only explanation I can think of is that they feel the need to justify their dislike to themselves, which means they're not truly convinced that they're correct in their opinion. Then again, some people just aren't happy if they don't have something to be unhappy about.

GravitysAngel said:

What a total absurd notion that pdf's lose physical sales, D&D no longer releases any pdf's anymore YET there is a quality pirate release of every single bit of content put out since the ban, free and easy to get.. If companies where really serious about courting their customer base and building sales they would price things fairly (When was the last time anyone paid $20 for a new CD release..lol) Business need to face the fact that they have completely lost the piracy wars and start to face reality, instead of trying to jack the customer base for every possible dollar they think can get and perhaps people would not feel so entitled to flip the company off and just bootleg their stuff anyway... perhaps they can try to do what the record and movie industry's have done and try to mass sue people or go aftet some isp's.. lol all the good it did those industries.. There really is no better P.R then treating your fan base well and not gouging prices on things it has the ip for.

Heretek said:

Exactly! Generally speaking (not directly to FFG), if you see your customers more than a way of making money and build a two-way relationship of listening to your customers and seeking ways of providing them with more value, you gain loyalty that no piracy will eat away. You don't steal from your friends, right?

In short term thinking you seek the ways to maximize revenue per content. In long term, you seek the way to build a growing loyal customer base. You need to choose which one you will optimize against.

Apple has showed us that operating on new level of content prices can leverage the power of masses as new business strategy. While RGPs have near that level of mass appeal you can still try to position differently on the price range. While splitting contents to several releases (core + expansion1 + expansion2 ..) is quite alright as your customers get to choose what kind of experience they wish to have, using different kind of formats of analog and digital distribution should work in favor of the customers.

Also, all 2nd contents could have been re-licensed and updated to 3rd rules rather easily. This would have given an abundant resource base early on and also transition of 2nd players to 3rd without the gripe we've seen emerge on the forum.

stanmons said:

That is a misconception and wrong. The updates for 2nd edition stuff would have been a lot of work and the license is already with FFG.

stanmons said:

I'm quite confident that the gripe would have occurred exactly the same, and it would have been worse. Without evolutionary game innovations, it would be a stagnant old thang' and the exact same number of grognards would have left in a huff Sure, we all wish it were an ideal situation, but there is no such thing.

No, I believe that changing the game system was the right move (although it is far from a perfect system..just as 2e was far from a perfect system).

We still don't have an elf product! Thanks to the 2e fans at StS for getting started on one though!

Look to the Liber Fanatica for innovations at this point for 3e as well.

jh

I just got into the 3e WFRPG system. I have to say, I don't find that the system "leaves a lot to be desired." Of course it is not perfect. No RPG system ever will be (the player base for RPG's wants to many different things for any game to successfully appeal to all of its fans in all of its aspects). But I have to say, all in all, I think the rules for this 3e variant of the game are pretty solid... but I am pretty new to the edition, so maybe I just have not had time to stumble upon the system's faults.

My 2 cents:

For the past decade "change management" has been a major component of my career, and it's always the same. Those who've been around the longest and are most invested in a system have extreme difficulty changing to a new way of thinking. In fact the most senior of these people not only have problems changing they actively seek to undermine change and convince others not to change. The newer the person the easier the transition, and those hired during or just after the change adapt the quickest. In fact new people tend to be more proficient and rise to a higher degree of mastery than the old people ever will. At work we just look forward to the "old school" retiring so they stop posioning the well.

I talk to other gamers outside of my group all the time. I write for a couple RPG blogs, attend numerous conventions every year, and participate in RPG MeetUp groups. When I talk to gamers about a new edition however, I no longer talk to gamers who played the previous edition. It's always the same; either the new edition sucks and the publisher ruined everything, or the new edition is the greatest thing ever because the publisher finally got it right. I talk to those who are playing the game for the first time. They tend to be the most objective, their opinion isn't clouded by nostalgia or their pride in "mastery" of the old rules, nor are they bitter about a system and wanting change to happen their way.

For me, I like WFRP 3rd. I only had a passing exposeur to 1st and 2nd and wasn't impressed. But over the past decade my gaming style has changed in certain ways that made the transition to WFRP 3rd Edition easier. My group began using poker chips and other markers to track things like ammo and wounds. We started using dry-erase boards and more abstract range and movement styles. We moved away from writing everything on paper and more to "visual" aides that made things quicker and easier to track as well as keeping the players more focused on the game and away from their character sheet. I don't know how I would've felt about 3rd edition 10 years ago, but by 2009 my group and I were ready to embrace the paradigm that FFG introduced. In fact I find my frustration in games like Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader growing because of the number-cruntching and rules structure.

Anyway these are just my thoughts and observations. If you don't like the game, don't play. But please don't burden the rest of us with your insecurities by perpetually needing to convince us that we're wrong and you're right. I don't care what game you play and how you feel about it, likewise unless you're sitting at my table I don't expect you to care about how I play or what I like.

Relax, enjoy your game of choice and those you share the table with. Because that is what we all have in common; the love of the game.

Emirikol said:

Just speaking for myself, I'm a WFRP fan not a 2e fan. I just use the 2e system to play WFRP because IMO it's the lesser of three evils.

Herr Arnulfe said:

whatever...you are a complete 2nd edition fanboy and arch-troll.

I've played all 3 versions of warhammer all the way back into the marvelous 80s. I've GMed may way through the Enemy Within Campaign (2 years of game time), all the way trough the D&D like Doomstones' campaign. All what the 1st edition had to offered we played. The same with Black Library's 2nd edition, all except The Thousand Thrones.

And that is a lot of game time. My point is that we have all growed since the time we first tried rpgs. What interested us THEN would probably NOT interest us now. Back in the days, any half-baked module or lousy written rpg book would send us enthusiasticaly into a make-belief world, battling dragons, demons and the undead, as mighty knights or wizards. (I fondly remember a time when Elf was a class just as the fighter was).

As we grow older and get new experiences and perspectives so do our interest in the rpg shifts. We no longer just want the action of a thrilling adventure, we want substance as well, to immerse, to feel, to get motivated, just like an actor . the GM cannot any longer just rattle his rpg bones and make magic, he needs to add flesh to the bones as well.

As we get older, we strive to keep in touch with our inner immagination, by mastering our rpg hobby, we still experience enjoyable gaming sessions.But at times we can't get rid of the sensation of becoming jaded as the wonderful memories of past rpg experiences cannot fully be repeated in these days. In a way we have outgrown them.

But in our search to re-connect with the youthful days of lazy summers and endless nights of playing rpgs, we raise our expectations. We buy tons of rpg products only to get a glimmer of the lost days of thrilling adventure and comradeship.

A rpg can never take you back to these days, nor can it meet those expectations either. But Warhammer 3rd edition have come closer than any other game I know of.

It's with dawning realization I know that the haydays of rpg is past me, I will probably play rpgs for decades to come, but most of the magic is lost, of the simple fact that I have grown up. And that can be hard to grasp and come to terms with for anybody.

Still there is wonders in the rpg that keeps drawing me back. fantastic stories to be told and shared and enjoyed. And for me warhammer 3rd edition offers me the greatest tool of immaginative power to weave and create stories that will immerse the players into a fantastic world. For me it works...still.

To all that cannot find joy in wfrp 3e, continue your search for the lazy summers and endless nights. It can be found. Don't let the dissapointment weight too heavily on you. It's out there...somewhere.

good gaming.
ps: sorry for my melancholy.

Bindlespin said:

That was kind of rude and unprovoked. Obviously you haven't read about my various grievances with the 2e system. I added the smiley because I don't consider any of the rulesets to be actually "evil"; it was a figure of speech. My ideal WFRP ruleset doesn't actually exist (hopefully one day it will). But even if it did exist, I wouldn't get bent out of shape and resort to personal attacks when people criticized it, like you do.

The 2e system is modern-ish enough that you can find players for it without much difficulty, and it's easy to houserule. Aside from that, it's not even really close to being my ideal WFRP system. Definitely not a v2 fanboy.

@ Mal Reynolds;

Wonderfully said. It's like old TV shows. There are many shows from the early '80's that I remember as being "awesome". But if I watch them now I just can't believe how lame and cheesy they are. Sometimes memories are best kept as memories.

Mal Reynolds said:

Well said.

double post

For me, I have to struggle to not enjoy the WFRP 3e experience. After in and out of things like DnD 3.0 and whatever for the last few years, and all the D20 madness that ensued, I have really taken to the new "system" so to speak that 3e offers.

Mal Reynolds said:

Personally, I find myself becoming a better, more imaginative gamer the older I get. If only I had the perspective and knowledge that I do now when I ran the Enemy Within. The golden years are right here and now IMO, and the best is still yet to come.

Same here.

We had fantastic times 20 years ago, but I wouldn't want to go back. Our gaming is really better now than before.

RPGs mature with us and that makes them lifelong gaming companions.

Getting older is harder on the schedules, but widens the scope of what we are able to include in our games thematically by a long shot.

Playing women NPCs, seduction scenes, or things relating to children, siblings, social role in a community, all these things I stayed clear of when I was 17.

Also my historical knowledge and GMing skills are much better today.

So no nostalgia here. But then again, I play with the same players... top notch players...

I've been playing RPGs for over 20 years, all kinds of systems. WFRP v3 is by far the most interresting and fun system I have played. Usually the system felt like a heavy stone we had to drag along. V3 feels a lot more dynamic and it's just wonderful having players draw a physical disease, give them a physical wound etc. All those tokens add to the game.

If you don't like all the tokens, then play V2 or something else. If you think it's too expensive... tough luck. It's the most innovative and awesome system I have seen. Our group had a break for about 5 years and I never thought we would start playing again (wife, kids and such things happened to us along the way). WFRP v3 got us back. We were just sucked in by the whole system and how it plays... how the rules can be really organic and not feel misplaced. I doubt we would ever have started playing again it it hadn't been for WFRP v3.

That said there are other things to think of. V3 is the RPG of the future. I'm sorry but the days of dusty sheets, boring rules and looking through books to find rules are over. V3 has a bit of the MMO approach to it with rechargable skills. I think the role players of the future want more systems like this.

The world is still the same, so you could easily use the new supplements with the old rules if you wish. I can't see any reason to complain. Finally a gaming company breaks out from the box... good work FFG.

As we get older, we strive to keep in touch with our inner immagination, by mastering our rpg hobby, we still experience enjoyable gaming sessions.But at times we can't get rid of the sensation of becoming jaded as the wonderful memories of past rpg experiences cannot fully be repeated in these days. In a way we have outgrown them.

That's a myth. Some of the best litterature was written by old men. There is no psychological proof as to the disappearence of imagination. It's just a fact that many adults don't really need to use imagination in their daily life. But people who do use it will make it stronger and more refined with age. I have gotten better, more imaginative and certainly more detailed in my imagination than ever. Kids have imagination yes, but it's unpredictable illogical and not really suited for a great game master.

Gallows said:

I wouldn't go as far as "reading is dead", but I do agree that videogames have created a demand for RPG rules formats that cater to non-lexical didacts.