As mentioned, most rules issues in our area were just players being human. We did have someone who would measure, put a finger down, then measure again, not my favorite, and IMO breaking the spirit of the one tool rule. Or stopping movement of fighters to measure their engagement range.

Edit: He'll probably be mad if he sees this. but hey...

One of the biggest issues I saw. Was measuring with the movement tool. You can't pre measure with that until the determine course step. People were checking where they could go before even deciding which ship to activate.

Im pretty sure I remember seeing either in the RRG or FAQ that you can use the tools to look at range/movement any time as long as you dont slot it into the base. Can you point out where explicitly it says you cant？

You should re-read the RRG section on Pre-measuring. It states the range ruler is an anytime thing, the maneuver tool is given a specific phase for use.

It says it can be placed and maneuvered freely during the determine course step. It does not say anything preventing you from holding it in the air over the table and eyeballing it at other times. I tend to read proscriptive rules as non-exclusive. Unless it says "only, cant, dont, or never" then to me it is not prohibiting other uses but just explicitly saying "yes you can use it in this way during that phase". Im not averse to going with your reading, but at my event everyone broke that rule multiple times and the TO encouraged it. Maybe its just the nature of a casual atmosphere but thats my understanding O.o

Eyeballing it at other ones is pre measuring. It specifically dictates what you can do as pre measuring. "Lack of exclusion does not impose inclusion". Seriously. Because the rules do bro say I CANT stack my ships. Nor does it say I can't add shields. Or bump my ship.... Etc etc. the rule is very clear and specific. At least in a tournament. Now if in friendly game. Or all agree before hand. Like with command tokens not being next to ship, then it's whatevs.

Eyeballing it at other ones is pre measuring. It specifically dictates what you can do as pre measuring. "Lack of exclusion does not impose inclusion". Seriously. Because the rules do bro say I CANT stack my ships. Nor does it say I can't add shields. Or bump my ship.... Etc etc. the rule is very clear and specific. At least in a tournament. Now if in friendly game. Or all agree before hand. Like with command tokens not being next to ship, then it's whatevs.

I hear you, Im not opposed to that being the way the rules are read in a tournament, or any other setting. Im simply saying at the event I went to not one person questioned it, so I came home with that understanding. It would be difficult to argue that only one reading is accurate because it doesnt explicitly say that. I hear that is the way the rules are read in other tournaments though, so barring explicit confirmation from FFG I will pass that info on to my TO All in all, I was actually really pleasantly surprised with how many of the players both knew the rules (except for that one apparently lol), and were able to point out each others mistakes, missing a ship dial reveal, etc...without any bad blood A great tournament!

One of the biggest issues I saw. Was measuring with the movement tool. You can't pre measure with that until the determine course step. People were checking where they could go before even deciding which ship to activate.

Im pretty sure I remember seeing either in the RRG or FAQ that you can use the tools to look at range/movement any time as long as you dont slot it into the base. Can you point out where explicitly it says you cant？

You should re-read the RRG section on Pre-measuring. It states the range ruler is an anytime thing, the maneuver tool is given a specific phase for use.

It says it can be placed and maneuvered freely during the determine course step. It does not say anything preventing you from holding it in the air over the table and eyeballing it at other times. I tend to read proscriptive rules as non-exclusive. Unless it says "only, cant, dont, or never" then to me it is not prohibiting other uses but just explicitly saying "yes you can use it in this way during that phase". Im not averse to going with your reading, but at my event everyone broke that rule multiple times and the TO encouraged it. Maybe its just the nature of a casual atmosphere but thats my understanding O.o

Extending this reasoning to other areas would I be able to; add dice without any effect allowing it, arbitrarily regain shields, or out right just pick up and move a ship randomly? Because you won't find anything in the rules prohibiting any number of clearly absurd examples such as those, because rules don't work in that manner.

"The rules don't say I can't do it" is going to be always an untenable position when it comes to the rules of any game.

That the TO encouraged it doesn't say anything then that TO wasn't concerned with upholding the rules of the game. As is already filtering through on the forums this wasn't the only, or even most egregious case.

I had a couple come up. If Tycho is in the middle of a Rhymer ball with TIE Advanced escorts, he can still attack Rhymer and ignore the escort rule right?

Also if Salvation gets 2 Crits on a roll, they count as 2 damage each instead of one. Do those crits also count as a faceup damage if they get through shields?

Each critical hit on the dice will count as two damage points, but as normal with attacking, you can only ever choose and resolve one critical effect per attack, no matter how many critical hits you roll in your dice pool.

Tycho does not ignore the escort trait.

In my experience, I even helped my opponents not mess up even when it benefited them exclusively. Yeah, there were prizes, but I'd rather win via fair fight. I'll sleep better at night knowing I helped make a better player and didn't let them make obvious mistakes that could have changed the game.

The biggest issue was reverting actions, or doing things off order.

If you have a squad command, and you attack before moving squads, for the love of god accept what you did was a mistake and move on. Don't put your opponent in a position where he has to be the ******* and say you can't do that. No matter how insignificant the situation may be, when you're playing a tournament where there is a serious prize, accept your mistake and move on. Especially since the tournament rules don't allow any excuses for mistakes like that.

This happened in the final of the tourney. It just made things a bit icy, when the person who made the mistake kept trying to argue that he can revert.

One of the biggest issues I saw. Was measuring with the movement tool. You can't pre measure with that until the determine course step. People were checking where they could go before even deciding which ship to activate.

I had a couple come up. If Tycho is in the middle of a Rhymer ball with TIE Advanced escorts, he can still attack Rhymer and ignore the escort rule right?

Also if Salvation gets 2 Crits on a roll, they count as 2 damage each instead of one. Do those crits also count as a faceup damage if they get through shields?

Yes. Every crit is 2 damage.

One of the biggest issues I saw. Was measuring with the movement tool. You can't pre measure with that until the determine course step. People were checking where they could go before even deciding which ship to activate.

Im pretty sure I remember seeing either in the RRG or FAQ that you can use the tools to look at range/movement any time as long as you dont slot it into the base. Can you point out where explicitly it says you cant？

You should re-read the RRG section on Pre-measuring. It states the range ruler is an anytime thing, the maneuver tool is given a specific phase for use.

I have been doing it wrong the entire time. . . Huh. . . Won't do that again

One of the biggest issues I saw. Was measuring with the movement tool. You can't pre measure with that until the determine course step. People were checking where they could go before even deciding which ship to activate.

Im pretty sure I remember seeing either in the RRG or FAQ that you can use the tools to look at range/movement any time as long as you dont slot it into the base. Can you point out where explicitly it says you cant？

You should re-read the RRG section on Pre-measuring. It states the range ruler is an anytime thing, the maneuver tool is given a specific phase for use.

It says it can be placed and maneuvered freely during the determine course step. It does not say anything preventing you from holding it in the air over the table and eyeballing it at other times. I tend to read proscriptive rules as non-exclusive. Unless it says "only, cant, dont, or never" then to me it is not prohibiting other uses but just explicitly saying "yes you can use it in this way during that phase". Im not averse to going with your reading, but at my event everyone broke that rule multiple times and the TO encouraged it. Maybe its just the nature of a casual atmosphere but thats my understanding O.o

The rules are never going to be able to tell you the 1000s of possible things they don't permit in any given situation. That is not how rules for this, or any game, function. Rules provide you with what you can do, which in this case use the maneuver template during the "Determine Course" step, not with all the stuff you can not do on the subject.

Extending this reasoning to other areas would I be able to; add dice without any effect allowing it, arbitrarily regain shields, or out right just pick up and move a ship randomly? Because you won't find anything in the rules prohibiting any number of clearly absurd examples such as those, because rules don't work in that manner.

"The rules don't say I can't do it" is going to be always an untenable position when it comes to the rules of any game.

That the TO encouraged it doesn't say anything then that TO wasn't concerned with upholding the rules of the game. As is already filtering through on the forums this wasn't the only, or even most egregious case.

Eyeballing it at other ones is pre measuring. It specifically dictates what you can do as pre measuring. "Lack of exclusion does not impose inclusion". Seriously. Because the rules do bro say I CANT stack my ships. Nor does it say I can't add shields. Or bump my ship.... Etc etc. the rule is very clear and specific. At least in a tournament. Now if in friendly game. Or all agree before hand. Like with command tokens not being next to ship, then it's whatevs.

What's the deal with the adding die from conc Fire? Technically you have to wait? Or do you look at the roll before deciding to use??

The big thing is the "attack pool" is determined from armament and upgrades to armamament. But it isn't really the "attack pool" until you've rolled the dice. Then you can "add a die already in your attack pool." It cleans a lot of things up particularly for players having trouble with having to decide to use their Concentrate Fire Dial and Concnetrate Fire Token at the same time.

It is really to your advantage to do it "properly" although for just casual playing throwing all the dice at once is easier but it cleans things up when you have a lot of dice addition, subtraction, and re-rolling.

What's the deal with the adding die from conc Fire? Technically you have to wait? Or do you look at the roll before deciding to use??

The big thing is the "attack pool" is determined from armament and upgrades to armamament. But it isn't really the "attack pool" until you've rolled the dice. Then you can "add a die already in your attack pool." It cleans a lot of things up particularly for players having trouble with having to decide to use their Concentrate Fire Dial and Concnetrate Fire Token at the same time.

It is really to your advantage to do it "properly" although for just casual playing throwing all the dice at once is easier but it cleans things up when you have a lot of dice addition, subtraction, and re-rolling.

Oh hey, I added the die from the CF command and I got some blanks, let's use the token as well (wrong, not allowed).

There are a lot of modifications and such in this game. Doing it right prevents confusion from your opponents and keeps everything orderly.

EDIT: misread your context, you were agreeing with me.

Oh gods adding dice on the initial roll.

Also I had to answer a lot of questions as to when things happened during the ship activation - i.e. I just shot twice and started measuring a movement, can I bank the navigate token now?

I think with the relative inexperience of all those involved the whole thing went pretty smoothly.

I had "Are Squadron attacks obstructed by Obstacles" come up at least once in two different Sullust events.

I had "Are Squadron attacks obstructed by Obstacles" come up at least once in two different Sullust events.

One of the biggest issues I saw. Was measuring with the movement tool. You can't pre measure with that until the determine course step. People were checking where they could go before even deciding which ship to activate.

Wait. . . What? Where you see that rule? I have not seem that rule? I am always using that thing to premeasure my opponents and my own ships!

In the RRG under Pre-Measuring. I think Page 6. It is the second of two bullet points, the first states you can use the range ruler at anytime, the second states you can use the maneuver template during the "Determine Course" step.

One of the biggest issues I saw. Was measuring with the movement tool. You can't pre measure with that until the determine course step. People were checking where they could go before even deciding which ship to activate.

Wait. . . What? Where you see that rule? I have not seem that rule? I am always using that thing to premeasure my opponents and my own ships!

In the RRG under Pre-Measuring. I think Page 6. It is the second of two bullet points, the first states you can use the range ruler at anytime, the second states you can use the maneuver template during the "Determine Course" step.

Read my later posts.

I now have. And are you really going with the line of thought that in an individual ships "Determine Course" step that both players would then be free to use the maneuver template for any of their ships?

Because if so I am going to point out a few things.

First the "Determine Course" step is always individual to the activating ship, it isn't a general step. Secondly the rules on pre-measuring state that the maneuver template can be used in that step "to assist in determine a course". A non-activating ship would not be determine it's course at this point (as that is a defined game step/term under Ships Movement). And lastly, the general absurdity and pointlessness of the rules if read in the manner you seem to be suggesting. If interpreted in the manner you are suggesting the limit on timing of use of the maneuver template serves absolutely zero purpose what so ever.

Your takes on this games rules are trending into very odd places

What's the deal with the adding die from conc Fire? Technically you have to wait? Or do you look at the roll before deciding to use??

The big thing is the "attack pool" is determined from armament and upgrades to armamament. But it isn't really the "attack pool" until you've rolled the dice. Then you can "add a die already in your attack pool." It cleans a lot of things up particularly for players having trouble with having to decide to use their Concentrate Fire Dial and Concnetrate Fire Token at the same time.

It is really to your advantage to do it "properly" although for just casual playing throwing all the dice at once is easier but it cleans things up when you have a lot of dice addition, subtraction, and re-rolling.

Yes because when you roll, maybe you wanted to try for an extra accuracy but did not think about it so you just added an extra red die.

Oh hey, I added the die from the CF command and I got some blanks, let's use the token as well (wrong, not allowed).

There are a lot of modifications and such in this game. Doing it right prevents confusion from your opponents and keeps everything orderly.

EDIT: misread your context, you were agreeing with me.

Yes. I was agreeing with you.

I now have. And are you really going with the line of thought that in an individual ships "Determine Course" step that both players would then be free to use the maneuver template for any of their ships?

Because if so I am going to point out a few things.

First the "Determine Course" step is always individual to the activating ship, it isn't a general step. Secondly the rules on pre-measuring state that the maneuver template can be used in that step "to assist in determine a course". A non-activating ship would not be determine it's course at this point (as that is a defined game step/term under Ships Movement). And lastly, the general absurdity and pointlessness of the rules if read in the manner you seem to be suggesting. If interpreted I'm the manner you are suggesting the limit on timing of use of the maneuver template serves absolutely zero purpose what so ever.

Your takes on this games rules are proving to be consistently off.

What ever ATF, I dont care what you think of my interpretation of the rules. You are going off what you read as the intent and I am using mine. So go ask FFG and prove me wrong.

It makes perfect sense so that one can not run into their own ships.

As per Ship Movement

"The maneuver tool can be placed on the play area and manipulated freely during the 'Determine Course' step."

Having read that. I can use the tool freely in that step. It is not locked down to that ship and I can even plan out possible future moves.

Worth asking FFG on that, but fwiw I'm in Scotties camp. Your interpretation smacks very strongly of rules lawyering here. One for the FAQ methinks!

And again that step is individual to a ship. No other ship is involved in any any other ships "Determine Course" step. There is no reason to take a rule that is specific to a timing of an individual ship and generilize it to ships not currently within that timing step themselves. Especially when doing so renders the entire rule in question superflous.

If the purpose was as you said, to keep a player from running into thier own ships (by being able to coordinate all movements simulanteously), then the rule would be identical to the rules in regards pre-measuring with a range ruler. But they aren't.

But hey if you want to take a stand on a rule that you didn't even know existed (despite obvious placement in the RRG and repeatedly being asked and answered on these boards) until this morning be my guest. I'm sure I am not going to be the only poster to tell you you are grasping at straws.