Hey guys.

I'm at this point where after 10 games one of my PC's has got a force sensitive trait and bought his first force power: Move.

Until now I've ignored force in my games because there was no force user or NPC that would use it. So I've read the rules, as I've got all 3 core books I've read all of them. It seemed easy but then I went on the forums here to see what's other people idea on some classic powers like force push and pull or lighting. And that's where I saw that almost every post has different interpretation of rules!

I guess my question is how many force pips do I need force certain force results. The below examples show where I'm lost :

Scenario 1: Character has force rating 2 ( max 4 pips if he's lucky right ? ). Has the force move basic power, upgrades: strength at 2 and range 1. control 1. If he wants to use this power to hurl a bigger rock ( size 2 ) at someone at short range he spends : 1 pip for basic power, 1 pip for control and 1 for strength for a total of 3 pips? Is that the correct math? Also can he, assuming he got 4 white pips on the force roll, activate strength twice for a even bigger rock? ( size 4? )

Scenario 2 : Same character but with force influence now instead of move, wants to pull the 'this are not the droids you're looking for' -> does he need to activate the basic power AND control for the cost of 2 pips and then make the opposed skill rolls or just 1 force pip for the control ? <- I saw someone on the forum here saying it's the second option which totally confused me as I was under the impression that we always activate the base power for 1 pip then activate the rest of upgrades?

Help me forums, you're my only hope!

Art

Scenario 1:

A Sil2 rock costs 2 pips at short range: 1 for the basic power, and 1 for Strength. The control upgrade does not require an extra pip to trigger. Yes, he can spend another pip on Strength (3 total), and throw a Sil4 rock. This still requires a Discipline check: the difficulty for a Sil2 rock is PP, and the difficulty for a Sil4 rock is PPPP.

I'll let somebody else answer Influence, as I'm AFB...

For your Influence question. The Basic Power only allows the PC to spend a LS/DS Force Point to inflict 1 Strain. The Control Upgrade allows the PC to instead spend the Force Point on having the Target adopt an emotional state or believe something untrue. It's doesn't cost 2 FP unless you want to do Strain damage as well.

For your Influence question. The Basic Power only allows the PC to spend a LS/DS Force Point to inflict 1 Strain. The Control Upgrade allows the PC to instead spend the Force Point on having the Target adopt an emotional state or believe something untrue. It's doesn't cost 2 FP unless you want to do Strain damage as well.

Ok so... in scenario 1 I'm paying 1 force pip for the basic power because I'm actually upgrading this basic power where in scenario 2 I'm completely bypassing the basic power straight to control hence the 1 pip correct?

I could swear that somewhere in the core books ( or forums ) there was a rule where we always activate ( pay 1 pip first ) for the basic -> then pay for relevant upgrades?

If an upgrade costs pips, it's specified. Note that for Move, Strength is specified, whereas Control is not.

In the case of Move, everything is an upgrade of the basic power. The two Control traits change the way the basic power works rather than replacing it, so you need to activate the basic power every time.

In the case of Influence, the two Control traits are completely separate functions that you are using instead of the basic power. They're effectively basic powers in their own right that you have to buy your way to and that use the same upgrade set.

Ok so... in scenario 1 I'm paying 1 force pip for the basic power because I'm actually upgrading this basic power where in scenario 2 I'm completely bypassing the basic power straight to control hence the 1 pip correct?

I could swear that somewhere in the core books ( or forums ) there was a rule where we always activate ( pay 1 pip first ) for the basic -> then pay for relevant upgrades?

In the case of Influence, the two Control traits are completely separate functions that you are using instead of the basic power. They're effectively basic powers in their own right that you have to buy your way to and that use the same upgrade set.

Yes, this is correct. When you buy further upgrades they will apply to either use (Strain or the number of people effected, range, and duration of effect) and cost additional pips as noted.

Thanks guys! This really helped :-)

Yeah, Control upgrades specifically give you new (expanded or completely alternate) ways to use the base power. You don't have to pay for them on top of the base power. For Move, imagine that it says "When you use the power to move something, you can *also* rip it free from someone's grip or any moorings," for example. For Influence, the mind trick is "You can *instead* use this power to make someone believe something, in place of just causing Strain."

The part with Range, Strength, and Magnitude upgrades that was most confusing to me was this:

1) One pip activates *all* the upgrades of a particular type that you have. So if you have two Strength upgrades on Move, one pip spent on Strength gets you all the way to Silhouette 2.

2) But in addition, you can spend multiple pips to activate your upgrade(s) multiple times, unless they say you can't. If you only have one Strength upgrade but you get extra pips, you can spend two pips on Strength (effectively paying to "power" your one rank twice) and still move that Silhouette 2 object. If you have the two Strength upgrades mentioned above, you can do the same thing, so for two pips you go to Silhouette 4 (two ranks, activated twice).

Yeah, Control upgrades specifically give you new (expanded or completely alternate) ways to use the base power. You don't have to pay for them on top of the base power. For Move, imagine that it says "When you use the power to move something, you can *also* rip it free from someone's grip or any moorings," for example. For Influence, the mind trick is "You can *instead* use this power to make someone believe something, in place of just causing Strain."

The part with Range, Strength, and Magnitude upgrades that was most confusing to me was this:

1) One pip activates *all* the upgrades of a particular type that you have. So if you have two Strength upgrades on Move, one pip spent on Strength gets you all the way to Silhouette 2.

2) But in addition, you can spend multiple pips to activate your upgrade(s) multiple times, unless they say you can't. If you only have one Strength upgrade but you get extra pips, you can spend two pips on Strength (effectively paying to "power" your one rank twice) and still move that Silhouette 2 object. If you have the two Strength upgrades mentioned above, you can do the same thing, so for two pips you go to Silhouette 4 (two ranks, activated twice).

Exactly! I seriously think that the wording could be a bit better in the books! I had exactly the same issues with understanding this hah. Seems a maxed out force move user can throw sil 16 items wtf like

Exactly! I seriously think that the wording could be a bit better in the books!

Yes, very much yes... The system is pretty good with it's problems mostly resulting from less than clear presentation of the RAW. It's a common problem with RPGs, a lot of different writers some with great ideas and others with a solid understanding of English grammar, rarely both If only they had the production time to really clean up the RAW so it's crystal clear...

Hmmm... I'm new, so I'm also trying to understand this.

Influence.

The basic power is "you may cause Strain damage if you want to. It costs 1 Force Pip for each Strain you want to cause."

The 10 point Control is a secondary use of Influence that says, "you can force a target to feel some emotion or believe some fib. It costs Force pips and requires a Discipline vs. Discipline check."

The 15 point Control is yet another use of Influence that says, "spend Force pips to get extra Successes and/or Advantages when making Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation checks."

So in essence, Influence is three different powers rolled up into one chart. Can I combine them? Can I spend a bunch of Force pips to cause Strain while making a stormtrooper feel fear as I buy some extra Successes while using Coercion on him?

Hmmm... I'm new, so I'm also trying to understand this.

Influence.

The basic power is "you may cause Strain damage if you want to. It costs 1 Force Pip for each Strain you want to cause."

The 10 point Control is a secondary use of Influence that says, "you can force a target to feel some emotion or believe some fib. It costs Force pips and requires a Discipline vs. Discipline check."

The 15 point Control is yet another use of Influence that says, "spend Force pips to get extra Successes and/or Advantages when making Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation checks."

So in essence, Influence is three different powers rolled up into one chart. Can I combine them? Can I spend a bunch of Force pips to cause Strain while making a stormtrooper feel fear as I buy some extra Successes while using Coercion on him?

Yes. It seems you can pick one of the control effects or use all of them if you have the force pips available.

And Enhance is four powers in one, with any one of them usable at any time. (Providing, obviously, each block has been purchased with the XPs.)

1. Basic power is Enhance Athletics (with further options being Coordination, Resilience, Piloting (Planetary), Brawling, Piloting (Space))

2. Force Leap

3. Ongoing increase Brawn

4. Ongoing increase Agility

Is that correct? If so, then by George (Lucas), I think I've got it!

Also, is a Force power check an Incidental, a Maneuver, or an Action? I'm reading, but I'm not seeing that answer. Unless I'm just not seeing it.

Same question with committing Force dice. Is it an Incidental, a Maneuver, or an Action to commit a die and cast the power?

Edit: I think I found the answer. Pp. 282 of Force and Destiny. "In any case, unless the power's desciption specifically states otherwise, using the power requires one action in structured time."

Yeah, exactly - it's an action. Some powers if upgraded can be triggered as a manoeuvre or incidental - but you can see that in the description.

And yeah you got enhance correct. It looks like you have to spend 1 pip per 1 desired control effect.