OK.

So in my next session, I hope to be running some more space combat as my group flee some pirates.

Previously, space combat has been rather deadly, and one of my players has declared "The system is GREAT, but Space Combat is the weakest bit.. its possibly broken"

To which i've said "Its probably got more to do with how im running it"

And thus to my point.

My players have only ever had a YT-1300. And their tactic is "Run as fast as we can" rather than "turn and fight"

So all our combats have really been a chase, and I have not used "The Chase" rules on page 241. Which I possibly should have done. I also didnt notice the rules for piloting difficulty, which might come into play, as the planet they are fleeing is in an asteroid field.

Said player previously, has displayed shock and disbelief at the rules for determining difficulty for the pilot... Half Sil/Current Speed. Would mean my players are rolling 1 Purple and 2 Red. Which he feels is far far too harsh.

Now... one thing I feel I have gotten wrong in this, is the NPCs being able to hit the forward def zone of the ship, even though narrativly, they are behind the ship... which I am going to change, unless the attackers can get in front of the PCs (in which case, its fair game).

I know this system is meant to be abstract, pliable, and flexible, but I feel we keep running into issues. So advice would be very welcome.

(If they were flying Fighters, and turning/dogfighting/fur ball, it would less of an issue.

Equally, the PCs CANNOT GtA, as the ship is not fast enough, meaning any attackers who DO GtA, get a huge advantage, since the PCs cannot cancel it. But still.. if the attackers are behind the PCs, how would they be hitting the fore of the ship?

So... suggestions?

Said player previously, has displayed shock and disbelief at the rules for determining difficulty for the pilot... Half Sil/Current Speed. Would mean my players are rolling 1 Purple and 2 Red. Which he feels is far far too harsh.

Having just recently run my first real space combat, that was an eye-opener for me too. But failure is not damage, it just means they don't get to where they wanted to go...basically their Fly maneuver is cancelled, and their speed is reduced by 1. I would impose Threat as system Strain, and Despair as "hull damage = net failures" or even a critical hit.

Now... one thing I feel I have gotten wrong in this, is the NPCs being able to hit the forward def zone of the ship, even though narrativly, they are behind the ship... which I am going to change, unless the attackers can get in front of the PCs (in which case, its fair game).

I wouldn't do that. The dodging and weaving in space combat means you don't get to pick your attack zone unless you get a GTA. The point of a GTA is that you are able to anticipate your opponent's moves. Remember a round is up to a minute long, and in that time the pilot who is narratively "behind" but has a GTA could cut off a turn and hit the nose if they like. For that matter, they might not be "behind", they might have anticipated the PC's turn around some debris, taken a different route, and are now coming in from the front.

Suggestions:

1. reduce the number of enemies to a manageable level

2. decide the level of terrain is sparser than the rules suggest and reduce/downgrade the difficulty of getting from A to B. If you want them to succeed, make the difficulty roll 1 die less than their pool size, but keep at least 1 red.

3. never spend your advantages on Linked for minions, it's too easy to 2-shot a YT-1300 that way. Use it instead to give the NPC pilots a boost die on their next GTA roll.

4. No more than 2 minions per group. YGG is a solid chance to hit. Rough math-ish: if you have 2 minion groups of 2 fighters, with YGG they will hit 3 of 4-5 shots, and that's still only about 3 turns of shooting without Linked. Jamming and other hacking can help the PCs, if you have a techie on board.

Then talk to the group about the future of space combat. If the group wants to survive space combat they need:

1. upgraded engines so they can GTA

2. upgraded targeting array for improved Gunnery

3. somebody with Improved Inspiring Rhetoric, or at least good Leadership for Fire Discipline.

4. a good Computers expert to hack and jam and sense the enemy

5. a good Mechanic to recover system Strain.

6. Twin Heavy Laser Cannons to reach Short range.

It's worth perusing the alternative actions, there is a lot there to work with and the difficulties are mostly PP.

the planet they are fleeing is in an asteroid field.

Said player previously, has displayed shock and disbelief at the rules for determining difficulty for the pilot... Half Sil/Current Speed. Would mean my players are rolling 1 Purple and 2 Red. Which he feels is far far too harsh.

They're flying full speed through an asteroid field... That shouldn't be easy (at least in Star Wars; See ESB)

Cheers whafrog.

They already have an Advanced Targetting Array, with a Mod, granting them 2 upgrades to all attacks..... since only ONE member of the group has any Gunnery, they need it.

I was going to throw a couple of Cloakshapes and a Skipray at them, as they flee.... I just need to work out how to 'tell the story' as the space combat has eluded me thus far.

The difficulty of flying that ship in such a way is because it is not a starfighter.

The Falcon was a highly customized YT-1300, with a Pilot who had served in the Imperial Navy. Not that all Imperial pilots are awesome-sauce, but Han certainly was.

He is able to do some things that starfighters cannot because of those modifications and his inherent skill.

Space combat in this game can be epic and cinematic, but sometimes you need to rely on the dice results to make it epic and cinematic. Instead of attempting this hardcore maneuver that will get you around the asteroid, pause long enough to drop behind your pursuer in the cover of the dark side of it, and give you the shot you were looking for, instead just aim for success and use your Advantage to narrate in how beast you are at flying! Han Solo ain't got #### on you!

Combating starfighters in a light freighter isn't about running away and staying one step ahead. Your tables freighter has turret mounted weapons. The pilot should spend more time passing boosts to the gunners or throwing setback on the enemy, and using those rolls to narrate his epic skills. A Leadership check to offer boosts to the gunners isn't just giving a heroic speech. It could be some action on the pilots part that inspires the rest of the crew to rise to the occasion. Avoiding a narrow shot, winning a game of chicken, so long as you can make the argument for that particular skill check, anything is possible.

Encourage your nerds to think outside the box. Make them argue for the skill they want to roll, suggest something a little off the wall.... Spend a session getting them to explore skills they wouldn't have otherwise ever have thought could be used like that.

How good a pilot is the pilot? Skill, Agility, and Talents?

The group have one member with 1 rank in Piloting and he has 5 Ag.

They have one member with 1 rank in Gunnery.

Trying to get my group thinking "outside the box" is tricky, becuase they have been conditioned in previous games to "just roll the dice, grind for xp, and loot"

My new player says he is going to "show them what imagination is for" (Presuming they dont end up leaving him on the planet (See another thread)

Trying to get my group thinking "outside the box" is tricky, becuase they have been conditioned in previous games to "just roll the dice, grind for xp, and loot"

I can understand that.

I have played with a few D&D converts. I made quite a bit of headway with them when I started awarding extra experience for 'good roleplaying'. A couple of them had a 'dafuq' moment when they got the base session exp and nothing else, but they started thinking about their rolls a lot more.

Use that exp greed to condition them.

Yeah, I started giving single XP points for giving me creative ways of HOW their Adv was being spent to grant said result, rather than "I hit the bad guy, my mate gets a blue" to "My shot sends sparks into the guys face, forcing him to turn and present a better target to my mate"

The group have one member with 1 rank in Piloting and he has 5 Ag.

They have one member with 1 rank in Gunnery.

Trying to get my group thinking "outside the box" is tricky, becuase they have been conditioned in previous games to "just roll the dice, grind for xp, and loot"

My new player says he is going to "show them what imagination is for" (Presuming they dont end up leaving him on the planet (See another thread)

Talents? Career/Spec?

Yeah, I started giving single XP points for giving me creative ways of HOW their Adv was being spent to grant said result, rather than "I hit the bad guy, my mate gets a blue" to "My shot sends sparks into the guys face, forcing him to turn and present a better target to my mate"

Diversify a bit. Along with encouraging odd skill check choices (remember to make them argue for it) get them to play the character, not the game.

For me, narrating the dice roll was only a part of it. Conversations in character garnered extra experience, good arguments for weird checks the same, and, of course, narrating the roll.

Note how Jango is behind Obi-Wan from around 1:50 in this video, and yet he hits him in the front of the ship?

Because they're both dodging and weaving in the asteroid field.

https://youtu.be/3ME5jhsgmB4?t=1m49s

Well without knowing actual PC build, the check is an opposed check, so maybe they just don't have a lot of experience with those kinds of dice pools. If they were doing an opposed social check with a Rival that had a 3 stat and 2 skill pertinent to the check, it's the exact same base Difficulty, so it's not like it's wildly off base for a possible opposed Difficulty. If they're looking at it like a standard roll, then they're already not comparing apples to apples in assessing it. In particular if they are thinking combat, it isn't a typical roll, it's like attacking a Nemesis at medium range with a pistol that has 6 soak and 3 ranks of Adversary, or, it's not supposed to be easy.

Chase rules are a good addition, and I agree the facing issue buggers people. As soon as you use a word like 'facing' or phrase like 'firing arc' in a game, people immediately start thinking tactical simulator, and this game just aint that.

The group have one member with 1 rank in Piloting and he has 5 Ag.

They have one member with 1 rank in Gunnery.

Trying to get my group thinking "outside the box" is tricky, becuase they have been conditioned in previous games to "just roll the dice, grind for xp, and loot"

My new player says he is going to "show them what imagination is for" (Presuming they dont end up leaving him on the planet (See another thread)

Talents? Career/Spec?

Smugglar, Scoundrel. No talents Pilioting related.

In fact the player has 110xp (out of 190 total) UNSPENT. I have no idea why, unless he is waiting to see where he needs it.

You should go listen to the List strikes back episode of the order 66 podcast as well as the one on space combat.

an important thing is to not have the scenario happen in empty space.

You should go listen to the List strikes back episode of the order 66 podcast as well as the one on space combat.

an important thing is to not have the scenario happen in empty space.

Thats why I added an asteroid field around the planet!

I also have a continual ongoing argument with one player about quite how far away from a planet you need to be before you can jump to hyperspace, and where/when you can plot the jump itself. (He could probably argue you can program it on the surface, and as soon as you are in orbit.. POP!.. gone.)

Sure, you could plot your course on the ground and pop into hyperspace once you reach space. It takes the space shuttle 8.5 minutes to reach low earth orbit, so it would not be unreasonable that the trip to deep space, where it would be safe to enter hyperspace, would take 10 rounds in a speed 5-6 fighter, 12-16 rounds in a speed 3-4 freighter, or half an hour in a lumbering hulk. Let him do it that way, and then if the pilot fails one of those two red/one purple difficulty pilot checks, it means the opposition forced them to veer away from their exit vector and they made no progress that round.

Ten rounds is a long, long combat, though, so be sure to leave some time for the ebemy ships to have to close the distance and your PCs to be able to plan and prepare.

The group have one member with 1 rank in Piloting and he has 5 Ag.

They have one member with 1 rank in Gunnery.

Trying to get my group thinking "outside the box" is tricky, becuase they have been conditioned in previous games to "just roll the dice, grind for xp, and loot"

My new player says he is going to "show them what imagination is for" (Presuming they dont end up leaving him on the planet (See another thread)

Talents? Career/Spec?

Smugglar, Scoundrel. No talents Pilioting related.

In fact the player has 110xp (out of 190 total) UNSPENT. I have no idea why, unless he is waiting to see where he needs it.

"Well, there's your problem"

110xp is a whole lot of talents and skill ranks they should be using. Not much costs more than 25xp in the game, so why hold on. Encourage him to spend it, then use that to inform you in what direction he wants the campaign to go.

Yeah. Ive said this to him.

He is an odd guy, very quite, doesnt really say very much.

I think he is waiting to see where he NEEDS to spend it.... but im not sure.

I cannot force him to spend it. He's hobbling himself... so.. *shrug*

You should go listen to the List strikes back episode of the order 66 podcast as well as the one on space combat.

an important thing is to not have the scenario happen in empty space.

Thats why I added an asteroid field around the planet!

I also have a continual ongoing argument with one player about quite how far away from a planet you need to be before you can jump to hyperspace, and where/when you can plot the jump itself. (He could probably argue you can program it on the surface, and as soon as you are in orbit.. POP!.. gone.)

I can tell you how to deal with that issue. Tell him much like google maps you can not get a route till you have a starting point and your ship needs to be at a valid starting point before it can calculate a route.

It sounds as though the group doesn't particularly WANT to engage in space combat scenarios, in which case throwing space combat scenarios at them isn't going to pay off for anyone. They might be happier with something that involves environmental/ambient hazards that aren't just about shooting and dodging - ask them about that first - but otherwise you're probably best off to stick to other aspects of the game that they do like.

It sounds as though the group doesn't particularly WANT to engage in space combat scenarios, in which case throwing space combat scenarios at them isn't going to pay off for anyone. They might be happier with something that involves environmental/ambient hazards that aren't just about shooting and dodging - ask them about that first - but otherwise you're probably best off to stick to other aspects of the game that they do like.

Its not that they dont want to engage in space combat.

Its the the primary driving player (Who would not consider himself a rules lawyer, but IS someone who works out all the probabilities), feels the Space Combat system is abit 'broken', and that they have pretty much zero chance in their YT-1300 against anything in the galaxy.

He also has his own ideas that despite my best efforts, I cannot shake loose... like being able to jump to hyperspace as soon as they are outside the atmosphere.

Granted, the way I have run previous space combat (and thats not alot), its been abit of a beating for them, and they have been forced to spend alot of cash putting the ship back together (despite the fact they dont NEED to - he presumes they MUST and then gets irked when they only have 5k in credits, instead of the 10k they did have before they HAD to fix the ship).

Its the the primary driving player (Who would not consider himself a rules lawyer, but IS someone who works out all the probabilities), feels the Space Combat system is abit 'broken', and that they have pretty much zero chance in their YT-1300 against anything in the galaxy.

If he’s going to hold onto over 100XP and not spend it, then yeah — they’re going to have a really hard time with him as their pilot.

At that point, I believe that he is not only hurting himself, but he’s also hurting the party, and you, and the game as a whole.

He also has his own ideas that despite my best efforts, I cannot shake loose... like being able to jump to hyperspace as soon as they are outside the atmosphere.

IMO there are a few variables here.

When making the Astrogation check, there is the issue of how fresh your data is regarding the jump you’re proposing to take. As that data ages, you start suffering more and more setback to the roll, and/or difficulty upgrades. So, you don’t want to pre-calculate that kind of thing too early, otherwise you’re just setting yourself up for failure. However, you could rule that re-calculating a jump with fresh information that had been previously calculated could result in a boost to the roll, and/or a reduction in the amount of time it takes to run the calculation again.

Then there’s the issue of actually making the jump itself when you are too close to the gravity well of a planet or other object in space. The sooner you try to make the jump, the more setback you suffer — and/or difficulty upgrades.

But once you explain the basic process to them and you tell them what the difficulty and setback would be, I would be inclined to let them do the roll and narrate for you what that roll means, regardless of success or failure, advantage or threat. If there is something that makes much more sense for your story, you could propose a modification to their narration, but I’d still let them own that part of the process.

The key is to get them to trust that you and they are there to help cooperatively tell an interesting story, and you’re not just out to “get them” any time that you can.

Once they learn that they don’t have to fear “The Big Bad GM”, then maybe they can feel more comfortable and less uptight about forcing a jump ASAP in all possible situations.

Granted, the way I have run previous space combat (and thats not alot), its been abit of a beating for them, and they have been forced to spend alot of cash putting the ship back together (despite the fact they dont NEED to - he presumes they MUST and then gets irked when they only have 5k in credits, instead of the 10k they did have before they HAD to fix the ship).

Again, it sounds to me like there is a bit of a trust issue here.

It seems to me that they need to unlearn their old ways, and they may need help from you to do that.

The group have one member with 1 rank in Piloting and he has 5 Ag.

They have one member with 1 rank in Gunnery.

Trying to get my group thinking "outside the box" is tricky, becuase they have been conditioned in previous games to "just roll the dice, grind for xp, and loot"

My new player says he is going to "show them what imagination is for" (Presuming they dont end up leaving him on the planet (See another thread)

Talents? Career/Spec?

Smugglar, Scoundrel. No talents Pilioting related.

In fact the player has 110xp (out of 190 total) UNSPENT. I have no idea why, unless he is waiting to see where he needs it.

So he could spend 70 of that, flip a DP, and laugh at the asteroids?

Your rules lawyer is right in so much, when people don't spend their xp to advance their skills they don't have a chance. The expectation to do well, or not do poorly, when they don't exert any effort to do well, leaves me somewhat in disagreement with his 'the game is broken' perspective.

Perhaps push the story in a direction where getting the ship fixed is much easier/cheaper. Something like access to a large scrapyard or an old clone wars battlefield giving the party an easier time of repairing the ship. If it's easy to fix they will be more willing to put it in danger. Another way may to deal with it is making ships very easy to come by. Perhaps working for a Smuggling Gang may require that they swap ships regularly,

Point the pilot in the direction of the Rigger specialisation, it's thematically fitting for either R2D2 or Chewie, he may find it interesting.