Firespray = Tie Bomber x2 so changes are easy.

Differences:

Speed 3 vs 4

Anti squadron 3 blue vs 2 black*

Anti ship 2 blue vs 2 black*

Ability rogue vs heavy

Hull 6 vs 10*

*remember there are two tie bombers

What do you think?

Firespray = Tie Bomber x2 so changes are easy.

Differences:

Speed 3 vs 4

Anti squadron 3 blue vs 2 black*

Anti ship 2 blue vs 2 black*

Ability rogue vs heavy

Hull 6 vs 10*

*remember there are two tie bombers

What do you think?

hmm. Here's the problem:

black > blue.

I think black = blue x 1.5 at least....

That means a loss on anti-ship... But this isn't a bomber sooo. to be expected?

Anti ship, bleh.

The firepsray generic looks like more of a anit-squadron than an anti ship piece.

Meh. All in all, not that exciting.

hmm. Here's the problem:

black > blue.

I think black = blue x 1.5 at least....

That means a loss on anti-ship... But this isn't a bomber sooo. to be expected?

Anti ship, bleh.

The firepsray generic looks like more of a anit-squadron than an anti ship piece.

Meh. All in all, not that exciting.

Firespray is bomber so...

hmm. Here's the problem:

black > blue.

I think black = blue x 1.5 at least....

That means a loss on anti-ship... But this isn't a bomber sooo. to be expected?

Anti ship, bleh.

The firepsray generic looks like more of a anit-squadron than an anti ship piece.

Meh. All in all, not that exciting.

Your calculation is a bit off, a black die is 1 average damage where a blue is 0.75 (with bomber, which firesprays do have).. but there are more differences. Rolling two blues together might help against shield-heavies, as rolling one acc might help to avoid that the damage is redirected. On the other hand, spreading damage over a lot of small attacks helps to mitigate defense tokens alltogether, as nobody likes to waste a token to avoid damage from a single die. Its death by a thousand paper cuts.

Still, I see some uses for firesprays as the empire lacks a versatile gunship/bomber that may operate - and survive - on its own. TIE bombers need support, they need carriers, they are a great tool but only in interaction with other parts of the imperial navy. But fling out 2-3 firesprays, may be with a short boost from corruptor, and they can handle themselves pretty well out there, without having to command them around every turn.

Two blues with bomber at medium range against evade, Mothma or foresight offer some advantages, not crazy but...

Against Mothma you will be sure he can't cancel the two dice.

Against Foresight you can play with exhausted/ready evade token. This is very situational I know.

The only black have the problem that it could be canceled or rerolled to a blank so you loose all. Two blue dice give you 1 damage unless you roll two accuracy.

It is not the power of the dark side but is interesting I think.

So the bombing dice aren't quite as good because they mitigate defense tokens less - but there are fewer chances of extreme results (one blank, one hit+crit being Mon Mothma'd into nothing, for example, I've seen that result plenty out of bombers.)

The fact that with 2 bomber blues, no side of the die is wasted (except 2 accs,a 1/16 chance, same as two black blanks) helps mitigate the fact that the blue dice are otherwise a little worse.

And anti-squadron is significantly better. Accuracies have a use much of the time, so both dice have a 75% chance of a useful roll, but going against counter the Firespray gets 3 blue in exchange for 2 blue, rather than the ridiculous 2 black in exchange for 4 blue.

If you are OK with your bombers being very slightly less efficient as bombers, but less prone to squadron lockdown, and less dependant on squadron commands, then Firesprays are good.

All in all, I'd say they are well balanced.

I think the damage inflicted will probably be a wash. Odds that the firespray will roll two damage are the same or better than for a bomber (75% on two dice, vs. 25% on two dice), as are the odds of no damae (25% on two dice for both). The bombers top out at more damage potential (four total damage if both bombers land hit-crits), and have the potential to spread their damage out better than the Firesprays due to their multiple activations (thus making it less likely that defense tokens will be spent). But Firesprays seem to offer more consistent damage, albeit in fewer concentrated bursts. I'm not a mathematician, though, so this is just my general impression.

I agree with Lyraeus (and DerErlkoenig beat me to it) that the main advantage of the Firespray is its multipurpose usefulness--specifically anti-squadron capabilities and the rogue keyword. Unless you ignore fighter squadrons (something that will be far more dangerous with some of the new Rogues, like Nym, who toasted an ISD yesterday at our Sullust match by stripping its brace in round 3), you have to invest in at least a couple of anti-squadron fighters to keep your bombers safe (TAs with escort) and/or lock down other enemy bombers (TIE Fighters, interceptors, or anti-squadron villains), depending on your playstyle and strategy. Firesprays aren't heavy and have three anti-squadron. Both are superior upgrades to even two TIE bombers when it comes to locking down enemy bombers/fighters (Bombers, alone, are completely useless), and actually fighting said fighters. Three blue dice vs. two black dice have the same average damage output against squadrons (1.5 damage), but the three blues top out far higher per attack (3 damage vs. 1 damage), and to get to two damage, both bombers need to attack, which can expose them to up to four counter dice (before Howlrunner/ Dengar/ etc. become involved).

Rogue speaks for itself. The ability to respond to enemy ships or squadrons as-needed, without needing a squadron command, is exceptionally useful.

With that in mind, it seems the ideal bombing complement would be a combination of both. To cite just one example, Rhymer, Boba, two Firesprays, four TIE Bombers, and Dengar come in at exactly 134 points (or 33%, rounded up one). That's one excellent anti-squadron bomber (Boba), two very good anti-squadron bombers (Firesprays), one ok anti-squadron bomber (Rhymer), and four meh anti-squadron bombers (generic bombers), all of whom get counter 1 if within distance 2 of Dengar, and can reap the benefit of Intel if within distance 1 of Dengar. Between them, that's six black and six blue bomber dice against ships (plus Dengar's bomber-free black), at medium range with Rhymer. Add three Rogues and Boba's special ability, coupled with his blue-black bomber payload (1.5 damage average, tops out at 3 damage), and that's a potent anti-ship Rhymer ball that has significant flexibility against other squadrons.

I think the damage inflicted will probably be a wash. Odds that the firespray will roll two damage are the same or better than for a bomber (75% on two dice, vs. 25% on two dice), as are the odds of no damae (25% on two dice for both). The bombers top out at more damage potential (four total damage if both bombers land hit-crits), and have the potential to spread their damage out better than the Firesprays due to their multiple activations (thus making it less likely that defense tokens will be spent). But Firesprays seem to offer more consistent damage, albeit in fewer concentrated bursts. I'm not a mathematician, though, so this is just my general impression.

I agree with Lyraeus (and DerErlkoenig beat me to it) that the main advantage of the Firespray is its multipurpose usefulness--specifically anti-squadron capabilities and the rogue keyword. Unless you ignore fighter squadrons (something that will be far more dangerous with some of the new Rogues, like Nym, who toasted an ISD yesterday at our Sullust match by stripping its brace in round 3), you have to invest in at least a couple of anti-squadron fighters to keep your bombers safe (TAs with escort) and/or lock down other enemy bombers (TIE Fighters, interceptors, or anti-squadron villains), depending on your playstyle and strategy. Firesprays aren't heavy and have three anti-squadron. Both are superior upgrades to even two TIE bombers when it comes to locking down enemy bombers/fighters (Bombers, alone, are completely useless), and actually fighting said fighters. Three blue dice vs. two black dice have the same average damage output against squadrons (1.5 damage), but the three blues top out far higher per attack (3 damage vs. 1 damage), and to get to two damage, both bombers need to attack, which can expose them to up to four counter dice (before Howlrunner/ Dengar/ etc. become involved).

Rogue speaks for itself. The ability to respond to enemy ships or squadrons as-needed, without needing a squadron command, is exceptionally useful.

With that in mind, it seems the ideal bombing complement would be a combination of both. To cite just one example, Rhymer, Boba, two Firesprays, four TIE Bombers, and Dengar come in at exactly 134 points (or 33%, rounded up one). That's one excellent anti-squadron bomber (Boba), two very good anti-squadron bombers (Firesprays), one ok anti-squadron bomber (Rhymer), and four meh anti-squadron bombers (generic bombers), all of whom get counter 1 if within distance 2 of Dengar, and can reap the benefit of Intel if within distance 1 of Dengar. Between them, that's six black and six blue bomber dice against ships (plus Dengar's bomber-free black), at medium range with Rhymer. Add three Rogues and Boba's special ability, coupled with his blue-black bomber payload (1.5 damage average, tops out at 3 damage), and that's a potent anti-ship Rhymer ball that has significant flexibility against other squadrons.

I can't disagree. You explain it very well. IMO they are very balanced (logic if we think the same cost) but the disadvantages are compensated.

Rhymer and rogue offset the speed.

The consistent damage offset the potential damage.

But i will add something more... The manageability. A standard rhymer ball of rhymer and 3/4 bombers must be include 5-12 points on upgrades in order to be controlled. If we agree about the balance between 2 bombers and 1 firespray we find that you can get the "same" power in the same points without buying hangars. It is another non-crazy difference but it makes me think. Rhymer 2 firespray and a bomber cost as Rhymer and 5 bombers but you only need one carrier.

I think the damage inflicted will probably be a wash. Odds that the firespray will roll two damage are the same or better than for a bomber (75% on two dice, vs. 25% on two dice), as are the odds of no damae (25% on two dice for both). The bombers top out at more damage potential (four total damage if both bombers land hit-crits), and have the potential to spread their damage out better than the Firesprays due to their multiple activations (thus making it less likely that defense tokens will be spent). But Firesprays seem to offer more consistent damage, albeit in fewer concentrated bursts. I'm not a mathematician, though, so this is just my general impression.

I agree with Lyraeus (and DerErlkoenig beat me to it) that the main advantage of the Firespray is its multipurpose usefulness--specifically anti-squadron capabilities and the rogue keyword. Unless you ignore fighter squadrons (something that will be far more dangerous with some of the new Rogues, like Nym, who toasted an ISD yesterday at our Sullust match by stripping its brace in round 3), you have to invest in at least a couple of anti-squadron fighters to keep your bombers safe (TAs with escort) and/or lock down other enemy bombers (TIE Fighters, interceptors, or anti-squadron villains), depending on your playstyle and strategy. Firesprays aren't heavy and have three anti-squadron. Both are superior upgrades to even two TIE bombers when it comes to locking down enemy bombers/fighters (Bombers, alone, are completely useless), and actually fighting said fighters. Three blue dice vs. two black dice have the same average damage output against squadrons (1.5 damage), but the three blues top out far higher per attack (3 damage vs. 1 damage), and to get to two damage, both bombers need to attack, which can expose them to up to four counter dice (before Howlrunner/ Dengar/ etc. become involved).

Rogue speaks for itself. The ability to respond to enemy ships or squadrons as-needed, without needing a squadron command, is exceptionally useful.

With that in mind, it seems the ideal bombing complement would be a combination of both. To cite just one example, Rhymer, Boba, two Firesprays, four TIE Bombers, and Dengar come in at exactly 134 points (or 33%, rounded up one). That's one excellent anti-squadron bomber (Boba), two very good anti-squadron bombers (Firesprays), one ok anti-squadron bomber (Rhymer), and four meh anti-squadron bombers (generic bombers), all of whom get counter 1 if within distance 2 of Dengar, and can reap the benefit of Intel if within distance 1 of Dengar. Between them, that's six black and six blue bomber dice against ships (plus Dengar's bomber-free black), at medium range with Rhymer. Add three Rogues and Boba's special ability, coupled with his blue-black bomber payload (1.5 damage average, tops out at 3 damage), and that's a potent anti-ship Rhymer ball that has significant flexibility against other squadrons.

I can't disagree. You explain it very well. IMO they are very balanced (logic if we think the same cost) but the disadvantages are compensated.

Rhymer and rogue offset the speed.

The consistent damage offset the potential damage.

But i will add something more... The manageability. A standard rhymer ball of rhymer and 3/4 bombers must be include 5-12 points on upgrades in order to be controlled. If we agree about the balance between 2 bombers and 1 firespray we find that you can get the "same" power in the same points without buying hangars. It is another non-crazy difference but it makes me think. Rhymer 2 firespray and a bomber cost as Rhymer and 5 bombers but you only need one carrier.

Another advantage will be the placing. You can only space a finite number of models close enough to rhymer to make him work, so more firepower per model would assist in maximizing the rhymerball. Though I doubt that any player would buy in on firesprays that much.

Bombers are more efficient but more specialized (hilariously **** anti squadron, heavy; need commands)

Sprays are indeed imperial Bs. Sadly, they lack Yavaris for ISD levels of dice but instead they get more speed and rogue

For being less efficient, they are far more flexible

Honestly, not sure I'd even run rhymer with them as I would bombers. Rogue seems enough as is.

Bombers are more efficient but more specialized (hilariously **** anti squadron, heavy; need commands)

Sprays are indeed imperial Bs. Sadly, they lack Yavaris for ISD levels of dice but instead they get more speed and rogue

For being less efficient, they are far more flexible

Honestly, not sure I'd even run rhymer with them as I would bombers. Rogue seems enough as is.

I'm inclined to agree with this, at least if your goal is to maximize damage output. If the goal is area control, then Rhymer is probably still of some use with Firesprays, even though they have Rogue.

Lack of the Yavaris ability is unfortunate for the empire, but there are lots of other areas where the empire has the edge (guaranteed crits with Screed, the dual purpose Raider, far better anti-fighter synergy on squadron aces, Rhymer's ability, and of course Demolisher), so it balances out in the end, I think.

For sure it'll balance out, it's just a matter of expectation

Sprays won't fart out ISD levels of dice; you have double arc GSDs for that (or just...isds?)

Their application will have to be more nuanced than just "space mines of doom"

They trade apocalyptic levels of dice for sheer flexibility

For sure it'll balance out, it's just a matter of expectation

Sprays won't fart out ISD levels of dice; you have double arc GSDs for that (or just...isds?)

Their application will have to be more nuanced than just "space mines of doom"

They trade apocalyptic levels of dice for sheer flexibility

While I think 4-7 Firesprays could serve as respectable space mines of doom (if you can afford the buy-in costs for models... ouch), I agree that they're probably not being used optimally in that roll. You want these things moving rogue, like a cloud of death.

Coincidentally, 7 Firesprays cost exactly the same points as 9 B-wings (126). In a straight-up fight, who has the advantage, do you think? Average damage output in a round, assuming everyone shoots (and no Yavaris, of course, since that imbalances everything), is 13.5 damage on the Firesprays (or 2 Firesprays), vs. 10.5 damage on the B's (or 2 B-wings). Odds would seem to favor the Firesprays getting the first strike, due to their (admittedly slight) speed advantage, and Rogue keyword (unless there are 2-3 carriers getting the B's into position). I will definitely need to try this sometime...

new Rhymer ball for me will be Rhymer, Howlrunner, 13 TIEs.... Eat 1 Black and 14 blue dice a turn..... Prolly has points to spare to add some interceptors. Seriously blue dice are just as good for blinking shields open for your salvos to cause some serious mayhem.

Thats 136 points though, for about 8 damage per turn on average. Is that really worth it given the extra lethality of Wave 2? (plus, you cant have 136 points of fighters, so you need to drop a TIE squadron).

8 damage seems a lot, but given that with stuff like Ackbar, Vader, Turbolaser Reroutes, APTs and so on you can cause that with ships for less points, often at longer range....i dunno.

Not to mention that he'll be only needing to kill about 270 points of ships, while you need to kill 400. I remain unconvinced, especially after playing with the new stuff Saturday. Ships just cause HUGE damage now.

Thats 136 points though, for about 8 damage per turn on average. Is that really worth it given the extra lethality of Wave 2? (plus, you cant have 136 points of fighters, so you need to drop a TIE squadron).

8 damage seems a lot, but given that with stuff like Ackbar, Vader, Turbolaser Reroutes, APTs and so on you can cause that with ships for less points, often at longer range....i dunno.

Not to mention that he'll be only needing to kill about 270 points of ships, while you need to kill 400. I remain unconvinced, especially after playing with the new stuff Saturday. Ships just cause HUGE damage now.

I think it's a risk taking max points of squadrons, but on the other hand - small ships just evaporate under fire from an Akbar broadside or Vader ISD. At least with squadrons you get the sandpaper effect of many unopposed 1-2 die rolls while defense tokens are saved, or wasting tokens them before the big volleys.

new Rhymer ball for me will be Rhymer, Howlrunner, 13 TIEs.... Eat 1 Black and 14 blue dice a turn..... Prolly has points to spare to add some interceptors. Seriously blue dice are just as good for blinking shields open for your salvos to cause some serious mayhem.

Can you put that many in distance 1 of Rhymer ?

For the Rhymer Ball, I am going to assume:

• It is intended to be activated with squadron commands (thus, we shall ignore Rogue for any ships in the primary blob).
• In the new post-Rogues & Villains meta, it will need at least some degree of anti-squadron or you will get mulched by rogues rolling up on unprotected TIE Bombers.
• You have a ship with a squadron value of roughly 4.

To that end, for the primary ball, I think the correct build may be Rhymer + Interceptors or Advanced, so that you can't get jumped by Rogues... and then, beyond that, a few Firesprays who can roll up with Rogue in their own turn and leech off Rhymer's ability once they get there.

If its over points its because i didn't fact check it.

Things the Rhymer ball does:

Forces your opponents squadrons out of paragon (maybe not a huge deal anymore but with reekan it will still be very good)

8 damage seems great to drop front and a side shield to 0 giving your opponent only one redirect target from a ship to ship salvo (the main strength)

Some of the new Rogues and Villains will work really well for Rhymer so I know I will be looking at it. If the wave2 ships decimate light craft as fast as you say then instead of taking 100pts worth of light ships i will take rhymer and friends. He always does so much work for me, or simply enables my ships to kill due to shield pegging. if people start redirecting squadron shots (either their shields are gone, or will be gone) its also very good for me. We shall see I still haven't processed all the new information yet and will need to play a lot of games with wave2 to figure it all out.

For me the issue is, who is going to spend 15 dollars a piece on a Firespray to build a Rhymer ball level force with them.

Comes the rogue expansion pack with just one of each squadrons or with two like the imperial and rebel ones?

1 ship per type in the expansion IIRC

For me the issue is, who is going to spend 15 dollars a piece on a Firespray to build a Rhymer ball level force with them.

This will be the primary limiting factor, I think. It will be interesting to see if individual excess R&V squadrons get sold off (and if so, at what mark-up).

That said, while there will be some fringe lists (16 TIEs, seven Firesprays, etc), I expect most squadron complements will tend towards more balance. Leaving Nym + B-wings or a Firespray-enhanced Rhymerball unmolested will be painful. Token fighter screens will be useless against bombing forces packing Intel. More expensive (and valuable) heroes will still need escorts.

Mithel + Intel... It us stupidly letal I think. Against tie fighters of course.