... although if you manage to pull off an Akbar Slash, hang onto your Wookie

oh that won't ever happen

the first thing your opponent will do when you try to set up a slash is dive into the mon cal's front arc

no, with Akbar you gotta think Old School naval warfare

it's all about that perpendicularity!

Edit: probably not on a Vsd unless it was broadside.

One thing I will say is that I'm not sold on the internal balance of some of the commanders so far. External (Rebel vs. Imperial) I think is fine, but internally, I think there are definitely "better" choices for the points than others, and the dispersion of values is probably larger for commanders than most types of cards.

For instance, I'm struggling to build a fleet for Wave 2 where Ackbar is not the best choice for Rebels in all cases. I can come up with some niche fleets where I can argue for other commanders (MM for an all/mostly CR90 fleet, Riekaan for an all-shrimp fleet), but even then, I feel like you are deliberately avoiding the best option with your build.

Similarly for Imperials, Vader and Screed are very strong compared to many of the others.

Is anyone else having this sense?

for rebels I wouldn't say it's a problem. Yes ackbar is crazy good... But he is almost double the cost of dodonna and almost 30% higher then the next closest. So I do not think there is an issue here. If you want the best you are going to pay a premium. Otherwise you can save a lot

Ak

at his price, Akbar is someone you build around

Related to this, running Akbar means ships like CR-90s and Neb-bs are harder to mix into your fleet. Running Dodonna doesn't automatically remove a few ships from serious consideration.

ships and squadrons, really

at 38 points + the expenses of the ships that most synergize with him (cheapest being 69 points), taking Akbar is basically declaring "I will gun you down with broadsides." The option to double-arc will always be there, but remember you've paid 38 points for this fishy friend and forgone other benefits you could have gotten otherwise.

everything else under Akbar is purely support, as even 400 points isn't enough to fit in enough ships for activations + enough squadrons to effectively threaten enemy ships.

Akbar is build defining, but we must remember that he needs certain ships; not that certain ships need him

Wave 1 was doing just fine without him. Even the AFmk2, which is an amazing platform for Akbar, can work just dandy without him (especially when facilitating squadrons, or as Paragon)

the Mon Cal doesn't even work that spectacularly with Akbar i.t.o point efficiency; honestly you get better returns from the Afmk2 or the Scout Shrimp with their all-important Gunnery Teams (It's really Home One in conjunction with other broadsides where it gets silly).

In addition, the Mon Cal can operate as effective carrier (which Akbar won't help at all with, but someone like Garm well could) especially bearing Defiance (which, note, has no "once per round" limit...it's like hyper Paragon ). With things like Silly Bombers now in the game, this is a huge thing to consider.

the Scout Shrimp is a fantastic option with Akbar (5 red dice from CF, 3 black dice at the ready for any foolish enough to approach; access to Gunnery Team) but what about without him? MM can turn it into an ungodly defensive terror; TLRs can already have it hitting hard at range without the need for a hefty commander investment. Hell, Garm can give it the flexibility to exploit it's speed 1-4 chart.

not to mention there's the yet unexplored potential of Riekan

Ak

at his price, Akbar is someone you build around

Related to this, running Akbar means ships like CR-90s and Neb-bs are harder to mix into your fleet. Running Dodonna doesn't automatically remove a few ships from serious consideration.

I'd think it would make cr90s pretty easy to add.

Slap an enhanced armament on one and you are throwing 5 red dice out of the side every turn you use a cf. for 54 points in a speed 4 ship that can get behind ships, that's pretty nice.

Hmmmm Akbar on a bunch of CR90 A's with turbolaser reroutes. . . . Hmmmm actually. Slaved Turrets. . . . Yes. . . . So much fun there

Ak

at his price, Akbar is someone you build around

Related to this, running Akbar means ships like CR-90s and Neb-bs are harder to mix into your fleet. Running Dodonna doesn't automatically remove a few ships from serious consideration.

I could not disagree more.

First: Ackbar makes the strongest ships in the rebel fleet (AFII, MC30, MC80) significantly better. Some basic math:

In a 4 ship fleet, Ackbar + Gun Teams means an allocated cost of 16.5 points per ship to generate four additional red dice per turn per turn. In a 5 ship fleet, Ackbar + Gun Teams means an allocated cost of 14.6 points per ship to generate four additional red dice per ship per turn. That's insanity. It's far better than anything else in the game in terms of cost per damage.

For a 1:1 comparison, enhanced armaments + gun teams are 17 points per ship to generate two additional red dice per turn! Ackbar is literally twice as good as the already best loadout for the average AFII.

Similarly, with corvettes, Ackbar can change the side arc to 3 red / 1 blue, superior to the wide front arc of 2 red / 1 blue. Double arc shots with CR90s are best, but if you put slaved turrets on an Ackbar corvette because you intend to scuttle sideways and stay at range, you are rocking a 50 point ship with 4 red / 1 blue as your attack out the side. Thus, even there, his impact on your ship is noticeable.

Second: you have to evaluate Ackbar based on incremental cost. You are REQUIRED to take a commander; we can't have a debate about "$!%! that stupid fish guy, he always walks into traps, just take a CR90B", as you have to downgrade from Ackbar to, at the cheapest, 20 points of Dodonna.

Thus, when evaluating commanders, you might as well assume you are building Dodonna + 280 points or Dodonna + 380 points and then Ackbar is an 18 point upgrade that gives you buckets of dice everywhere. Again, he's insane. Your average evade token will eliminate 1 damage at long range, and MM brings this into medium range. However, Ackbar means your average long-range side shot adds 1.5 expected damage before mitigation, and with gun teams you can do this more than once!

Third: building around Ackbar definitely makes him more effective, but that is true of almost every commander. Taking Garm in a corvette swarm is just as stupid as taking Ackbar with nothing but Nebulon B's. My point, however, is this: Ackbar is really, really good. The cumulative advantage for building around Ackbar is FAR greater than virtually any other rebel commander. This is why I am saying he is great.

Fourth: I see a lot of arguments around here of "if this, if that, or if you do this, this is better than that in this specific situation" etc. etc. etc., and a lot of this is just back-rationalization to make arguments for things that are, on average, just bad. There is no situation in which, given that you can design your own fleet, if your goal is to win that you would take Dodonna over Ackbar. None. Ackbar dominates the decision space, from a game theory perspective, as the advantage he can bring with other ships when coordinated across a fleet make him far, far better.

EDIT: Guys, Dodonna is your classic "win more" card. If you are already at the point where you are dealing severe crits to an enemy ship, you are probably going to kill it anyways. I think people over-value his ability, but how much incremental additional damage does Dodonna actually account for in a game vs. just throwing 4 more red dice per ship per turn with Ackbar? It's not close. If we get way more things that allow you to do crits to ships that are undamaged (Luke and Dodonna's pride) and you can build an entire fleet where everything has this attribute, then we can talk, but right now, he's in the "half the time his ability triggers you already killed the other ship" camp.

This is my point about commander balancing. I see obvious and very powerful Ackbar strategies, and I doubt any of the other rebel admirals will come close in terms of total sustained advantage (caveat: if Riekaan actually allows ship necromancy, I may change my opinion on him).

I don't think anyone here if saying he is not good. Also don't forget how good Dodonna it's with Luke and APTs

Hmmmm Akbar on a bunch of CR90 A's with turbolaser reroutes. . . . Hmmmm actually. Slaved Turrets. . . . Yes. . . . So much fun there

for reference, CR-90 with Slaved turret (or EA) broadside (from its thinner side arcs) under Akbar is four reds

same as a CF naked Neb out of the front

gets a blue at medium range, though

Yeah - I think the CR90a with slaved turrets turns it into an interesting proposition, also the CR90b, add overload pulse and combined with accuracy guaranteeing from Home One, you can nullify you opponents defence tokens and follow up the attack with your big guns MC80/AFIIb.

Hmmmm Akbar on a bunch of CR90 A's with turbolaser reroutes. . . . Hmmmm actually. Slaved Turrets. . . . Yes. . . . So much fun there

for reference, CR-90 with Slaved turret (or EA) broadside (from its thinner side arcs) under Akbar is four reds

same as a CF naked Neb out of the front

gets a blue at medium range, though

Yes but Speed 4 to skirt the whole time, has 2 evades and a redirect and is 4 red and 2 blue with a CF dial ^_~

I could not disagree more.

First: Ackbar makes the strongest ships in the rebel fleet (AFII, MC30, MC80) significantly better. Some basic math:

In a 4 ship fleet, Ackbar + Gun Teams means an allocated cost of 16.5 points per ship to generate four additional red dice per turn per turn. In a 5 ship fleet, Ackbar + Gun Teams means an allocated cost of 14.6 points per ship to generate four additional red dice per ship per turn. That's insanity. It's far better than anything else in the game in terms of cost per damage.

For a 1:1 comparison, enhanced armaments + gun teams are 17 points per ship to generate two additional red dice per turn! Ackbar is literally twice as good as the already best loadout for the average AFII.

Similarly, with corvettes, Ackbar can change the side arc to 3 red / 1 blue, superior to the wide front arc of 2 red / 1 blue. Double arc shots with CR90s are best, but if you put slaved turrets on an Ackbar corvette because you intend to scuttle sideways and stay at range, you are rocking a 50 point ship with 4 red / 1 blue as your attack out the side. Thus, even there, his impact on your ship is noticeable.

Second: you have to evaluate Ackbar based on incremental cost. You are REQUIRED to take a commander; we can't have a debate about "$!%! that stupid fish guy, he always walks into traps, just take a CR90B", as you have to downgrade from Ackbar to, at the cheapest, 20 points of Dodonna.

Thus, when evaluating commanders, you might as well assume you are building Dodonna + 280 points or Dodonna + 380 points and then Ackbar is an 18 point upgrade that gives you buckets of dice everywhere. Again, he's insane. Your average evade token will eliminate 1 damage at long range, and MM brings this into medium range. However, Ackbar means your average long-range side shot adds 1.5 expected damage before mitigation, and with gun teams you can do this more than once!

Third: building around Ackbar definitely makes him more effective, but that is true of almost every commander. Taking Garm in a corvette swarm is just as stupid as taking Ackbar with nothing but Nebulon B's. My point, however, is this: Ackbar is really, really good. The cumulative advantage for building around Ackbar is FAR greater than virtually any other rebel commander. This is why I am saying he is great.

Fourth: I see a lot of arguments around here of "if this, if that, or if you do this, this is better than that in this specific situation" etc. etc. etc., and a lot of this is just back-rationalization to make arguments for things that are, on average, just bad. There is no situation in which, given that you can design your own fleet, if your goal is to win that you would take Dodonna over Ackbar. None. Ackbar dominates the decision space, from a game theory perspective, as the advantage he can bring with other ships when coordinated across a fleet make him far, far better.

EDIT: Guys, Dodonna is your classic "win more" card. If you are already at the point where you are dealing severe crits to an enemy ship, you are probably going to kill it anyways. I think people over-value his ability, but how much incremental additional damage does Dodonna actually account for in a game vs. just throwing 4 more red dice per ship per turn with Ackbar? It's not close. If we get way more things that allow you to do crits to ships that are undamaged (Luke and Dodonna's pride) and you can build an entire fleet where everything has this attribute, then we can talk, but right now, he's in the "half the time his ability triggers you already killed the other ship" camp.

This is my point about commander balancing. I see obvious and very powerful Ackbar strategies, and I doubt any of the other rebel admirals will come close in terms of total sustained advantage (caveat: if Riekaan actually allows ship necromancy, I may change my opinion on him).

On your first point:

The AFM2b base ship with no mods, shooting out of 2 arcs with a CF command generates 6 red dice and 1 blue. This generates an average of 5.25 damage per turn. Dividing point cost it generates 0.073 damage per cost. So now we will start to upgrade it and see what it does to our average cost. For purposes of Akbar, I will assume he "costs" 4 points for the AFM2. I derive this number by taking the difference between Dodonna and Akbar, then divide by four as this ship will take up roughly a 4th of your ships. If you demand 5 ships, it would change the number to 3 and not radically change these results.

All points are computed at medium range with a CF command factored in.

0.073 AFM2b base, 2 shots

0.069 AFM2b Akbar, one shot only no Gunnery Team

0.085 AFM2b NO Akbar, 2 shots with Gunnery Team

0.117 AFM2b Akbar and Gunnery Team - 2 shots

0.063 AFM2b Akbar and Gunnery Team - Only 1 shot

For reference, the CR-90b is the most point efficient medium range vessel with base stats generating 0.115. B-wings generate 0.125. Yavaris (one shot) plus two double tapped B-wings 0.118

So right off the bat, the 0.117 is not necessarily ground breaking. Its GOOD, great even. Just not out of this world. Of course the difference between front arc vs side arc makes this more important. Second, getting the second shot with Gunnery Team is VERY important for the efficiency of the ship. If the team does not get used, say for example there's just a single ISD chasing, then the efficiency over an AFM2b base is minimal (0.052 to 0.063) and the plain ISD2 is shooting at 0.059. Furthermore, if the AFM2 is being boxed by GSDs (you better believe the enemy is going to do their best to get in your front arc) the base AFM2 is at 0.073. If the Akbar/GT ship chooses to only fire at one target out the side they are at 0.063 efficiency, or LESS efficient than no upgrades. If they choose to forgo the Akbar bonus and fire out of side and front, their efficiency REMAINS at 0.063.

So what does Akbar do? It gives the rebels a really great option for AFM2b fleets with the penalty that the enemy will work very hard to get in front of you and limit your side shots. Running a raider or CR-90 for the sole reason to gum up the lead AFM2 may need to be a thing for metas where this ship is commonly used.

Second:

I was never arguing that Dodonna is 0 points and Akbar costs 38 more than Dodonna. Someone else maybe.

Third:

Akbar shenanigans is really limited to AFM2b. We'll see that shortly.

Fourth:

Your argument is a tautology.

So why does Akbar limit fleet composition?

The MC80c which can not take GT, goes from 0.071 to 0.061 in efficiency with Akbar. Yes your side arc is nicer, but your overall firepower is down. I think enemies will try to jam your front arc.

The Neb-b is pretty obviously bad with Akbar.

The MC30s goes from 0.043 to 0.051 with Akbar (I didn't factor GT here). Hardly a transformation.

The CR-90a goes from 0.102 to 0.078. You're actually losing damage at medium range while increasing cost. Sure you get to kite and only show the side arc, but at a cost in efficiency.

So Akbar greatly helps AFM2s in ideal situations, hurts them in situations the enemy will attempt to exploit. I would say a win overall here and worth running him for.

He moderately bonuses MC30 Scouts, and makes them not horrible at long range, but doesn't significantly up their efficiency. So you could include them but not as a focus.

He takes a slight loss on MC80s, but the dice redistributing to the side arc may be worth it, as may including Home One for the accuracies. So not bad, but not amazing.

He takes a loss on both Neb-bs and CR-90s making them questionable inclusions.

Hence, Akbar is NOT the automatic choice for all rebel fleets unless you assume the rebels will only use 3 out of 5 ships types, and any fleet that uses the other 2 is a "fringe" fleet.

To be clear. I'm not saying he's bad. I totally look forward to 4 AFM2s with Akbar and GTs pounding the heck out of other fleets. He's just nowhere near an auto include.

Ackbar allows me to do what I'd want to do anyway with most Rebel Ships, which is circle strafe at long range, while giving me my front arc shot (dice wise) for no effort. Occasionally I'll get to double dip on those free front arc dice if I can get in between two opposing ships. Which is quite bound to happen with certain objectives.