A lot of QQ about how/why TLT made it through in its current form. Here are a couple reasons.

First, they really aren't that effective. In a straightforward slugging match they are adequate, but they have major weaknesses you can exploit to ensure that raw jousting is the last thing they are going to be able to do.

Second, the folks doing the play testing were for the most part truly veteran players. They have been around for quite a while, and didn't just read about some "old school" builds they also learned how to use and counter those lists. If you are relatively new (read, the last year and a half or so) then TLT may seem horribly OP. But if you are like me and have some solid "old meta" lists in your back pocket you can break out at a moments notice...

Here are some lists to start with that will give you at LEAST an 80/20 split over a quad TLT list if you fly them competently. I will put them in order of least challenging to fly effectively to most challenging to fly effectively.

BBBBZ -

This list will murder quad TLT outright. Get in a pinwheel formation and fly straight at the TLTs. Shoot at the FURTHEST ship you can reach with all your guns if they are flying towards you, shoot at the CLOSEST ship if they are flying away from you.

If they close range, drop your whole formation at R1 of their lead ship/s so they can't shoot, finish off the one in back you have been shooting at, profit from the enormous swing in firepower. If they fly away, go SLOWLY, so that their lead elements take themselves out of range. If you need to have a round with nobody shooting to get the range set up do so. Then, just 1 straight as they 1 straight, trading fire with your whole squadron against the rear elements of theirs. Profit.

Howlrunner (PTL)+ 6 Obsidian -

Old, old school. There is a reason this list dominated the meta for 4 waves. Get in formation (my preferred is some variation of the pinwheel, but this list can use anything) fly towards the opponent, and shoot them. If they have someone with higher PS, send a wounded TIE out to block them from making a move that could avoid the swarm, and have the rest of the formation advance to R1.

Howlrunner (Swarm Tactics), Mauler (Swarm Tactics), Black Sq (DtF, Shield), Academy, Academy, Winged Gundark. -

A swarm variant I used successfully many, many times in a quite a few tournaments. The mix of PS lets you fly straight into the opponent and deny them actions (you are way below 100 pts to guarantee yourself the initiative), but the ST allows your entire list to be finished shooting by PS 4. If you aren't killing a Y-Wing a round, you are doing something wrong. For this list it is critical you are in a tight pinwheel formation (APs in front, Gundark and BS mid, Howl and Mauler in back) in order to maximize your concentrated firepower.

Whisper (Sensor Jammer, Lone Wolf, Advanced Cloak, Gunner) + 4 Obsidian -

Get the Obsidians in their face, have Whisper loiter on the outskirts and shoot one Y per turn.

Rebel Convoy (2 x Outer Rim Smugglers, 2 x Ion Warthogs) -

You have more firepower, more control, and more hitpoints. Block them and control their movement options by putting a fat ORS where they want to go, follow the ORS with your Warthogs. Once you get a block + Ion lock on a TLT, that ship is going to die without ever getting another action (and maybe not even another shot).

Royal Flush, Soontir (PtL, AT, Stealth), Carnor (PtL, AT, Shield), Turr Phennir (PtL, AT) -

Control range in order to concentrate fire on one Y-Wing at a time while denying one or two of their ships shots. You have the speed and maneuverability to ensure that you never, ever get shot without AT help, and to ensure that you can point guns at your preferred target. This takes a lot of finesse, but it is effective and something I have used repeatedly to drop 4 x TLT lists. Just make sure Turr is the one going in headfirst, as he is the least vulnerable to lost actions. Carnor + ATs make all of your Interceptors virtually immune to fire once he gets in close.

These are all solid lists in their own right, not just "anti-TLT" lists. Start from here, see what works, and build your own list to leverage the mechanism you are most adept at. Specifically, these work because they do one or more of the following..

1 - Throw a lot of red dice at a single target

2 - Control the TLT list to keep them in vulnerable positions through blocking and/or Ion

3 - Control Range and position through repositioning

4 - Bring more health to a fight where TLTs cannot inflict crits to even the odds.

I hope this helps.

Don't forget the Rebel variant of the 8 ship swarm. 4 Talas, 4 Bandits. Even the lowest PS ships still get simultaneous fire.

Fixed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=derJAbewd4w

Here's KO using three interceptors against 4 Y TLT's

The 3-ace option is a lot more challenging. Also has a decent chance to just lose outright.

The 3-ace option is a lot more challenging. Also has a decent chance to just lose outright.

Sure, it's not the list I'd pick if I knew I were going to fight TLT spam. But I think KO's point is that it's not an auto-loss: you have the tools to make sure your opponent can't concentrate fire and is always shooting uphill against Autothrusters + tokens.

I've been saying for a while, you can out-joust TLT spam, you can outmaneuver it, or you can bid for PS and kill them before they can shoot. Almost any list can do at least one of those things, and many lists can do more than one. TLT spam can be tough, and it's especially tough on players who are intensely involved and invested in the Wave 5-6 metagame. But (unlike the Phantom) there's no shortage of tools out there for dealing with them, if you look.

The 3-ace option is a lot more challenging. Also has a decent chance to just lose outright.

You and Vorpal are both right that the 3 Ace list is challenging, but it is also consistently good. I put it as the most difficult to fly well because there is a lot of room for error and the consequences for a mistake are high. Having said that, it is simultaneously the one that will always have a tool in the toolbox for dealing with whatever is on the table. Even if you are down to a single Ace, that ship can outmaneuver the TLTs sufficiently to pull out a win.

In the parlance of skill, it has a very low skill floor (meaning if you don't play it well you will lose), but simultaneously a very, very high skill ceiling (meaning if you play it well you can really dominate games).

Regardless, I am trying to offer some concrete suggestions for people to try if they are struggling against and/or just frustrated by TLT spam. All of these lists are good enough to play against the field, and all of them offer a straightforward path to beating TLT spam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=derJAbewd4w

Here's KO using three interceptors against 4 Y TLT's

Poe's Royal Heartbreaker:

Tycho + Expert Handling + PtL + Auto-thrusters + A-wing fixes

Gemmer Sojan + PtL + Auto-thrusters + A-wing fixes

Poe + PtL + R2-F2 + Auto-thrusters

TLTs are gonna have a rough time hitting any of them once they get into position. Poe's 3 agility + Poe focus is gonna neutralize most blasts and just get Gemmer into the donut hole of one of the Ys and well, he's not getting hit. Tycho is of course always fun.

Not a lot of teeth, but should be able to whittle them down effectively as long as they don't get blocked (this is the list's main vulnerability).

Is there a Rebel equivalent to the 3 Ace list?

I get the feeling that A-Wings don't hit hard enough outside of their missiles and those will only reliably strip the shields. You've still got to eat through all that hull. I've not had good luck with only 2 red dice doing that sort of work.

Doh! Ninja'd before I even asked!

Is there a Rebel equivalent to the 3 Ace list?

I get the feeling that A-Wings don't hit hard enough outside of their missiles and those will only reliably strip the shields. You've still got to eat through all that hull. I've not had good luck with only 2 red dice doing that sort of work.

I feel that with As the real question is are they going to survive enough rounds to get through the hull with all that stuff flying there way. I feel at least with Gemmer the answer is yes. Just depends who his buddies are.

I have been working on a Rebel equivalent. I have two options. The first relies on a big alpha strike to even the odds, then chips away at the survivors. The second is more classic three ace. I'm not convinced these are as good as the Imperial Aces, but it's something. I think that in order to make the Three Ace build, your key ships need multiple actions (evade + Focus), 3 agility, and autothrusters as well as boost in order to position and defend effectively.

Juke is not released yet. You can fill with something else in the meantime, but it's a very powerful upgrade for ships that expect to have evades most/all of the time.

I like the look of your second 'A-Wing Aces' list Kinetic. I know that a lot of the 'A-Wing' guys on here have been discussing the new EPT's and their potential uses, but they've concentrated on Wired. I like the fact that with Juke you're manipulating your opponents dice, especially with Y-Wings single evade dice. As a list to explicitly deal with TLT spam I think it could be made to work. As a general list to take on all comers I might be tempted to put VI on Jake and have a two point initiative bid.

You could take four royal guard with AT and mince a tlt squad.

The issue really is building a squad that can handle tlt spam and everything else.

I think Juke is better on A-Wings, because their main weakness is poor damage output. Juke is also one of those upgrades that gets much more powerful in multiples, which is why both lists concentrate on having two or more. If you only have room for one, I would put something else in (VI, Outmaneuver, maybe Wired).

PtL for Focus/Evade + Juke + Prockets is an extraordinarily painful shot for whoever is on the receiving end. If you have a TL left over from a previous turn, it becomes positively lethal.

Yes, but.....

Is there a currently legal Rebel build that can cope with quad TLT and still handle what ever else a tournament might throw at you? I'm hoping to play in my first tourney next week and I've found that the builds I thought where good sucked wind against quad turrets and Dash with a heavy laser.

I could play Imperial. But as Rebels are my primary faction I'd rather use them.

Yes, but.....

Is there a currently legal Rebel build that can cope with quad TLT and still handle what ever else a tournament might throw at you? I'm hoping to play in my first tourney next week and I've found that the builds I thought where good sucked wind against quad turrets and Dash with a heavy laser.

I could play Imperial. But as Rebels are my primary faction I'd rather use them.

All were defeated.

It's great vs turrets and not so bad vs the rest. The main weakness is vs multiple 9+ ps ships, but can handle one with wise use of Miranda

Best anti TLT fleet : Avoid.the kind of player that given the posibility to play Epic would like to deploy 12 TLT Ys. Clean and Easy

I posted a variant swarm on another thread that ends up shooting up TLT's pretty well... just sub in a doom shuttle for 2 AP's and use an FO and Blacksquadron with Swarm to shoot at PS 4...end up with more HP than a regular swarm (even if you doom yourself once) and TLT's can't take a shuttle off the board before it shoots twice and potentially dooms 2 TLT's. Another fun Swarm.

Long live the Empire...Forever lives the swarm.

Yes, but.....

Is there a currently legal Rebel build that can cope with quad TLT and still handle what ever else a tournament might throw at you? I'm hoping to play in my first tourney next week and I've found that the builds I thought where good sucked wind against quad turrets and Dash with a heavy laser.

I could play Imperial. But as Rebels are my primary faction I'd rather use them.

Umm. Did you read the original post? I put it out there to give ideas for how to deal with TLTs without crippling yourself against the rest of the field, and it includes several solid Rebel lists that also deal with TLTs.

"Critically short on WD-40"

Gray Squadron Pilot, R2 Astromech, TLT, BTL-A4 = 27 points, and point for point beats the tar out spammed TLTs.

Get 2 of those for 54 points total.

Add Poe Dameron, R5-P9, Lone Wolf, Autothrusters for 38 points.

You've got 7 points left for further customization. I like Proximity Mines for each Y-wing and a 2 point bid. Against massed TLTs, you have a good chance to wipe one on the first round of firing, and you really shouldn't lose a ship if you manage that (or even if your targetis still alive). After that, Poe can control range very well, and the Ys will continue to chew up the opposing Ys.

Low AGI stuff gets mauled by the Ys, swarms struggle to scratch Poe's paint, and the Prox Mines give a lot less room for arc dodgers to play. The squad has a lot of tools to use against a lot of archetypes.

For my money, I'd say that four Ion + BTL Y-Wings would wreck TLTs. They've only got one evade die, so you should be able to Ion most if not all of them on the first pass, then just hug range one for the rest of the game.

The four Ion Hogs also works well against a lot of other lists. It can get a bit difficult against high-PS aces, but once they've been blasted by the Ion, you can control them pretty easily.

Yes, but.....

Is there a currently legal Rebel build that can cope with quad TLT and still handle what ever else a tournament might throw at you? I'm hoping to play in my first tourney next week and I've found that the builds I thought where good sucked wind against quad turrets and Dash with a heavy laser.

I could play Imperial. But as Rebels are my primary faction I'd rather use them.

Umm. Did you read the original post? I put it out there to give ideas for how to deal with TLTs without crippling yourself against the rest of the field, and it includes several solid Rebel lists that also deal with TLTs.

The BBBBZ list strikes me as just begging one of those triple ace Imperial arc dodger lists to slap you around like a red headed stepchild. Fair to middling (or better?) against most anything else I'd imagine? But I'd also love not to have to buy two more B-Wings. And the HWK just leaves me cold. It doesn't even look like a Star Wars ship to me. Probably hamstringing myself a bit, but I doubt I'll ever buy one.

4BZ isn't your cup of tea. What about 8Z? Rebel Convoy? Neither of those has a HWK, both of those have solid game against low ship count lists.

Other than that, you can go with the advice in the conclusion of the OP, which is to devise your own list that capitalizes on one or more of the mechanisms my suggested lists use to beat TLTs. I mentioned that you should try these lists in order to find out which specific mechanisms you are most comfortable exploiting and devise a list to maximize that mechanism. Lots of red dice in the aggregate even on 6 or more ships, more health, more maneuverability, control elements. Any number of ways to counter TLT spam, especially with lists that can leverage more than one of those. For example, Rebel Convoy (always close to my heart) has more health, more firepower, and control elements. Swarms throw a lot of red dice and can win the positioning war (by blocking/denying the best counter moves) Played competently, those should maul 4xTLT badly and still have game against the field. They are not easy lists to be sure (at least Rebel Convoy is not), but there you go. If you want easy, go with 4 x Bandit 4 x Tala and just fly your mob at the TLTs.

If you are looking for a way to make a 2 or 3 ship list work against TLTs, you are in for some disappointment, because TLTs are optimized towards defeating small ship count lists. For a 3 ship list to work you need extreme advantages in one or more areas, like Royal Flush has, and then you need to fly that list so that your advantages are maximized. Royal Flush has an enormous advantage in positioning, but consequently MUST capitalize on that in order to win.

What I am saying is that there are real, approachable, and effective lists out there that can hammer TLT spam and still be effective against the field. Yes, some of those will be disadvantaged against small ship count elite lists, but no list you devise will be advantaged against EVERYTHING, or else we will have re-entered a stale meta where one list type dominates. If you can use a list that runs 60/40 against the main meta, and no worse than 40/60 against expected outliers, you have a very solid list to take to a tournament. The lists I put on the OP should run a solid 70/30 or 80/20 against TLT spam, which we all expect to be a large percentage of the meta, and no worse than 40/60 against the worst outlier lists (like 2 ship elites for example). Meanwhile, those outlier lists are in turn VERY bad against TLT lists. If your "achilles heel" is already expected to be a small number of entries, and matches poorly against a full meta list, you are doing well. You are very unlikely to face them, because unless you meet in the first couple rounds they will probably be eliminated by the meta very early. Assuming you are winning, if you only have a 1/20 chance of meeting a worrisome list on round one and those odds diminish every round, that list is not something you should be building against.