To qualify, I have played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying, and I enjoy it, however I seem to play more boardgames these days, with the regular WHFRP weekly...HOWEVERI also play Warhammer battles (both fantasy and 40K).

None of the roleplayers are moving to play WHFRP 3e...I suppose it doesn't appeal to them. However, I see some here on the forums are very hardcore in pushing FFG to move in that direction and ONE person (yes, that's ONE person) who doesn't even PLAY WHFRP has expressed interest in getting the new RPG (good luck to him getting a group...none of us will probably play with him, and we aren't going to put up with his style of DMing).

Of the Warhammer players, NONE of them are interested in the new WHFRP. However, there must be some somewhere, but ironically most of them wouldn't even be aware this was coming out if I hadn't told them...and even then it was...meh...I play the miniatures not the RPG. It doesn't seem to attract them either...so apparantly amongst the minis players I know...they aren't interested in the RPG.

So, it appears from those I know (and maybe we hang out with those like us, hence the similarities) almost no one is interested in this new system. I am pretty adamant against the new system BUT if there actually had been enough interest in it I probably would have ended up getting it. Right now there's not a chance since, as with the guy I stated above who isn't even into WHFRP, there'd be NO ONE to play it with anyways, hence wasted money.

So where am I going with this and how is it related to the topic above?

This.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=854

The AH minis are cancelled, supposedly because of an outcry from fans (which I believe was a MUCH SMALLER OUTCRY THAN THAT FROM THE WHFRP COMMUNITY ON WHFRP 3E). What's so ironic and how does that apply to the topic then?

I was actually tempted to give the AH minis a try with the AH game. I'm a big FFG boardgamer, and I actually really enjoy minis. Overall it seemed they may be more worthwhile then the Warhammer TAG minis they came out with which I bought, and at least on par with the Tannhauser minis, and perhaps more cost effective. There were at least two of us that probably would have bought them...regardless. That's X2 the amount that were looking at the WHFRP game 3e. Now albeit, that's still not huge numbers, but double is more then one.

Now overall I've kept my peace on the WHFRP 3e after the initial announcement, but something about them claiming "due to fans" in regards to the AH minis ticked my boat off, as I know a LOT of WHFRP 2e fans that are EXCEEDINGLY ticked off about 3e. Ironically, I'm actually somewhat positive in regards to what many of their opinions are, and me I'm more of the opinion of leave it alone to those who want it, we'll play something else.

BUT, if it's true that they changed their minds on AH...due to fan outrage...I'll say it's more outrageous to me that they are stating that and yet let WHFRP stand...then AH minis.

I'd imagine if anything, either their blowing smoke out and hoping we accept their illusion...OR something happened to force them to cancel the AH minis anyways and this is how they are hiding it...AND since WHFRP was already at the printers...so to speak, by the time they announced it, they had already spent the money on this endeavor and it didn't matter what the fans said regardless.

BUT if it is true about the AH minis....it does peeve me off to no end...especially with their cancellation of 2e. Not enough to boycott and not buy Runewars (yes, I'm going to buy Battlemist 2e), but it tarnishes them somewhat.

Well, there are a couple of things. First, I am a WFRP 2e fan, and I'm interested in getting (and trying) 3e. My entire gaming group (that played 2e) is interested in at least trying it. There are also other 2e fan on the boards here, who also think 3e looks good and are willing to try it. Read the latest post from FFG about the pre-launch weekend. I'd suggest trying to find a store local to you that is running it, and get in (or observe) a game or two before you decide. It still might not be what you're interested, but you'll have at least taken a look at it rather than deciding without.

Second, I believe that WFRP 3e is much too far along in production to be pulled. The AH miniatures were a small run, an dlikely they only had a few figures with master molds (since they were planning on only releasing 2 per month). Thus, canceling the AH figures early enough so that their losses in time/materials is low. WFRP has way too many production materials, and too much time invested, to up and cancel production now. At this point, they need to release the product to recover development and materials costs.

So, while I'm disappointed in the AH mini's myself (I and my wife would've bought them for our AH games), it's a far cry from canceling a small-release early-cycle product to a large end-cycle release like WFRP 3e.

There's so much interest that I dont' think there are actually ANY game stores within 50 miles of me running WHFRP 3e demos...the nearest ones that I think may actually have the possiblity at this point are probably around 2-3 hours away....

On the otherhand and ironically they DID run a Descent game and demos at one recently about 5 miles from my house.

Well, there's the pre-release event Nov 13th-15th. You could try to get one of your local stores to pay the $40 to get the pre-release kit (no money out of your pocket). Offer to GM the demo adventure, or get one of your buddies who is willing to at least *try* the game to GM the demo adventure (or the store might know someone who is willing to GM). Again, no cost to you or your group other than the time to try it out. Small cost to the store, big value, and you get a free preview of not only the contents of the box, but a look at the rules and a chance to play/observe the game to make sure you hate it as much as you think you will. All for the price of just a couple hours of your time on the weekend. Sounds like a win-win.

I've done that with my FLGS, and I signed up to GM a couple times on Saturday.

@GreyLord

Well, I would say that, if you are already playing a regular campaign with WFRP2 it feels normal to avoid getting into WFRP3, at least until you finish the actual campaign and have more time to decide what to do, so what you are saying does not surprise me.

I think FFG should have waited some more months, even a couple years without publishing any WFRP2 material for people to start craving for more WFRP before announcing WFRP3. That would have made WFRP2 fans less antagonistic against this new edition...

But, the truth is that they have decided to publish it now... Marketing-wise maybe it was not the best strategy but the ideas they have been putting forward in the designer diaries look groundbreaking and pretty good in my opinion, and once some of the fans pass the "I feel betrayed" mental stage (for some it will take weeks, for others probably the eternity) and decide to give the game a fair chance, I'm pretty sure more and more will join WFRP3...

My group is decided to try the game, so I have already preordered at Amazon, 63$ seems an excellent price.

Current players of WFRP 2 aren't FFG's main target market. v2 fans are poor customers, 'cause they already have loads of books so they don't need as many new ones. The main target market is new players - and many of those new players probably don't know about the new game yet. They won't know until they see it on the shelves of their FLGS or being played at Cons. The demos in November will stir up attention.

GreyLord said:

macd21 has basically answered this issue: FFG could not care less if they upset every single WFRPv1 and WFRPv2 fan. The new game is not designed for the existing fanbase and any existing fan that buys it is just an unexpected bonus. The Arkham minis however were designed to be sold to the existing fanbase so when they protested FFG withdrew the minis because it looked like they would lose money on the deal.

Foolishboy said:

And what's the result?... No minis, even if you want+can pay for them... I don't see what there is in it to be happy about... It is as if you tell me that company A decides to not create new games because nobody has the money to pay for them and people feel their opinions were taken into account... it only proves that there's not enough money in gaming industry and too much in other stuff like betting, sports and nastier things... a sad world that would be, but I digress...

The point I wanted to make is that, as usual, I disagree 100% with you when you say FFG does not care about WFRP1 and WFRP2 fanbase... I'm a fan of WFRP2 and I don't feel backstabbed by them... some of you are a bit sensitive it seems...

How can you call careless to a company that will continue publishing content for our favourite game/universe?... If you don't want to buy it because you don't have the money or don't think the game is worth it, then it's OK, but calling FFG careless is, in my opinion, unfair and unsensitive... and that from one that, as you are constantly doing in these forums, is constantly complaining of being treated unfairly and hinting that people are constantly attacking you...

I fear the proverbial 10 feet long pole in your eye is not letting you see the picture clearly...

cogollo said:

Hey, I'm a fan of WFRP 2 and don't think that FFG are backstabbing the old fanbase - but I do recognise that they aren't aiming WFRP 3 at older fans. It would be a really bad idea for them to do so from a business perspective. The complaints from older fans don't bother them, 'cause those fans weren't going to be buying many v3 books anyway.

cogollo said:

Just have to add my voice to this debate.

Seeing the cancellation of the AH mini's made me realise i should rush over here and point out that I will be buying WHFRP 3e. I just avoid this forum as it's just full of people whining that 2e died 2 years ago, and RPGs by definition should have initative rolled on a d6 etc. Every piece of news I've heard about 3e has been interesting to me, and has sounded to me like a step in the right direction, and as much as I have some concerns, I will be testing those out with the final product when I get it.

There are many systems (good and bad) that in the last 30 years (I've been role-playing too long), have opened up my mind to new concepts and approaches, and these have all been steps forward in the way I play and enjoy my games. I am suspecting, and hoping, that WHFRP 3e will be another of those. The first system based off a Warhammer re-write was the Judge Dredd RPG, and I remember buying it the day it was available at Games Day 1985 - and I had never considered having charateristics that weren't STR, CON, DEX etc. The whole Warhammer series has a history of innovation, that I hope continues.

And i should point out I play AH as well, but I wouldn't have bought the mini's. Sorry.

macd21 said:

macd21 said:

I'd like to identify the meaning of older.

Older by age?
Older by playing age?
Older because I have a v2 books in my hands?
And in case, what is the age of and Older player? 28+? 30+?

And younger? What's the meaning?

15 years old?
Never played WFRP?

I ask this because I'm 31 and I don't buy less games than when I was 15. Quite the contrary!
I don't enjoy less games than when I was 15! Quite the contrary!
I play with a lot of peoples that are 28+, about 12 (more groups of course).

To tell the truth, when I was 15, I'll go around to play soccer outside, hanging around loosing time in sensless activities, etc.
Age bring me the costance and patiance to read, understand and play such complex games as RPGs and Boardgames.

So, why they are thinking that we olders aren't worth of spending money of new creations?

I actually have never played any WFRP, but have loads of RPG experience with other RPGs.

Fairly recently a discussion about WFRP 3e came up on Enworld and I thought I'd check out the previews. I find myself fairly impressed actually I think it appears to have significant depth, but also a nice simplicity to use, and all the tracking bits are stuff my group has been using through the last 3 editions of D&D anyway.

Lately D&D (and various other less notable systems) hasn't been satisfiying my RPG itch though, the mechanics never seem to fit just right or intuitively enough anymore and combat always seems to drag. It looks like this new edition of WFRP is more or less exactly what I want in an RPG. I'm excited for the release.

@Foolishboy:

macd21 has basically answered this issue: FFG could not care less if they upset every single WFRPv1 and WFRPv2 fan. The new game is not designed for the existing fanbase and any existing fan that buys it is just an unexpected bonus. The Arkham minis however were designed to be sold to the existing fanbase so when they protested FFG withdrew the minis because it looked like they would lose money on the deal.

Wow, that's a pretty big leap in logic. All he said is that he thought WFRP v2 players are not their main target audience. That's a far cry from "...could not care less if they upset every single WFRPv1 and WFRPv2 fan.". Assuming that macd21 is correct in his assesment, that does not mean that FFG doesn't care what existing WFRP fans think.

@johnmarron

I looked on amazon yesterday afternoon and found it up:
http://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-Fantasy-Roleplay-Core-Set/dp/1589946960/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255623794&sr=8-1

dvang said:

dvang FFG have actually admitted that the new game is aimed at new players and as i said existing players buying the game is a bonus for FFG.

cogollo said:

Why am I sensitive? I did have not claimed that FFG have backstabbed me.

Perhaps if you read the post that you intend to attack it would help.....

Which still does not equal that they don't care at all about how WFRPv1/v2 fans feel about the game. Although aiming the game to draw in new players, I'm sure they have accounted in their financial projections for an amount of previous WFRP players swithcing over. Think of it this way ... to grow the game they decide to aim towards players new to WFRP. They must therefore change the game enough to make it new (otherwise these new players would have already been interested enough to buy v2). However, they cannot expect to depend solely on new players to make the product work. They must have some need/desire/expectation for a number of their current v2 fan base to migrate to the new system, so I doubt existing players migrating are "just a bonus" to them.

Again, just because the game is attempting to draw in new players, does not mean the same thing as not caring at all about what previous WFRP players feel. Now, they might not be able to change things based upon current opinions (due to development/release times, etc), but that does not mean that they don't care what we think.

I'll also point out, that there are at least as many pro-v3 opinions and posters on these boards as there are con-v3 opinions and posters. There certainly isn't a clear majority either way. Also, forums are just a small sample of vocal people, regardless of which opinion they express. So, at what threshold should a company need to start re-evaluating its product, and based upon what evidence?

Foolishboy said:

??? All games are aimed at new players, as you need new players to expand your market. If you don't expand your market, your sales will slowly and you will lose money. I don't need to go further in this example do I? I think you may be putting a rather different interpretation onto a quote that what was intended .. can you link to the original statement?

I'm sure that FFG are hoping that the majority of 2e players will have an interest in 3e, and I bet they will be right. Of course, there are always people that take any form of change as some sort of personal insult, but you're never going to be able to help those people - and funnily enough, once they've had thier little rant and bit of attention they normally follow along. They're just not "early-adopters".

EDIT: Bit slow posting, so a few replies come in, sorry if I'm repeating stuff

Serious Question:

Do any of you really think that FFG looked at the first two editions of WFRP, looked at the fans and then designed WFRPv3 for the existing fanbase?

Consider that:

• FFG did not tell anyone that they were making a new game.
• FFG did not ask the existing fans for ideas for the new edition.
• FFG have not conducted any playtesting outside of their own employees.
• FFG have chosen to completely change the system.

Are you really insane enough to now argue that FFG did all this for the existing fanbase?

You only have to look at the reaction from the majority of the existing fans to realise that this game was not aimed at them at all. As I maintain any existing players that plan to buy (like me) are just a bonus but we are not the target audience.

Foolishboy said:

• Not only do I think they looked at it, they are players.
• Many companies keep new products under wraps for grand unveilings.
• They had play testers, many (or all) of them players of previous editions.
• They did conduct play testing outside, one of the players posts on Strike to Stun.
• Lots of Roleplaying systems are being updated these days. There are many systems that re-wrote to 3.5 when it was OGL.
• Of course they want and need the existing fanbase. They also want to grab some of those new D&D4th players, and some other new players if they can
• It appears that you are not the target audience (of your own accord) and yet you still waste your time trying to convince others that this game isn't for them.
• 2nd Edition is gone. Enjoy the material you have and keep playing, or let it go, but complaining isn't going ot make it come back.

I've said this again and again. Roleplaying games are about story, not mechanics. If you have a good GM and good Players, the game will be fun. If you can't tell a good story with these tools (or any other tools) I have to question they quality of your gaming environment or, well... perhaps you really did pick the right name for yourself.

NezziR said:

I agre in 100%, a good Gm makes all the best of the game. As a GM myself I can't wait to try all those tools on my sessions. Can't wait for the release of the game, I'm counting days.

Foolishboy said:

It's a way of talking... you have not explicitly said FFG backstabbed you, but you have implied they did some sort of treachery on WFRP1 and WFRP2 fans.

And I read your post and am not attacking it... again you resort to victimism and implying some of us are there to somehow attack you...

I repeat: if you don't like the game, fine with me, but don't blame FFG for being careless with WFRP2 fans, because that's not true for my case and I'm also a WFRP2 fan.

NezziR said:

johnmarron said:

Are you in the US? Because I haven't seen a pre-order available through Amazon yet, and was wondering if I am just missing it.

John,

I live in The Netherlands. I was able to preorder the game from amazon.com so apparently they will serve European customers.

Go to www.amazon.com and search for "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Core Set" and you'll find it (first in the list).

cogollo said:

When did I say I don't like the game? I have stated my intent to buy WFRPv3 several times.