What would need to change to create a mixed border environment? Members of the forum could write an unofficial final CCG FAQ 2.1 to handle the last broken combos, perhaps some other speed? What other mixed border rulings might arise? This could be our own grass roots concept. It might bring some legacy players back to league kit sanctioned fun. I think if LCG play were there, this would be an ok adjunct, or the late night crowd. I recall a tournament organizer, callofcthulhu perhaps, with some good ideas. FAQ 1.9 to 2.0 was a great leap. Speed Rituals and Rip Off saw the first banning. There is a disconnect to LCG rules 1.0. We could even debate the four to three card rule. I'm sure we can deal with the new crafty lock down combos. Somebody smart please advise.

im not sure what youre looking for exactly but if youre looking for other banned cards of some sort id have to say ghoul khahum, ithqua, mentor, and yig. id look at dreamlands messenger from shub since he basically blocks every card printing for lcg. id stick with 3x for decks. im kinda done with ccg decks since i took all mine apart and packed the cards away so i havent really done much mixed border stuff. i think the biggest issue is the speed of game more so than the older cards being more powerful. so maybe need to look at the reducing characters and if every faction should have them still, i think the rituals were the bigger problem so the characters and locations that reduce should be ok. maybe ancient gold should go too.

obviously this is just a guess but i dont think there is a big chance of any broken combos with the old and new cards since most of the new cards focus so much on stories and such. some of the new miskatonic story token abilities and the old yog ones like balance of thoth might have something broken in there though.

I agree some of the cards you mention are strong. I still think it's ok to have overpowered yig, ithaqua, mentor, gregs, and GKs. They're not really what's broken. There's always going to be the favored cards. These guys are beatable, right? Ancient Gold helps only SY faction, who was not really won too much. So a player plays the same old deck and you have to build a deck to beat him. Eventually, you'd hope both sides would go on to a diffrent battle. Or else, we finally do ban a great card or two. But I'd tread more lightly. I agree on the change to three, just to keep LCG and legacy within throwing distance. You could tweak one deck into either more easily with three per.

please stop.

let's not give ffg any more reasons to mess around ith old cards, shall we?

And sorry, but cards like Ithqua are not overpowered - Agency kills him with small price to pay, or shotgun blast, or strike the shepherd, hastur has pulp writer (he has only 1 terror) cthulhu - well. Im not going to count it.

Dreamlands messenger - as above, if you cannot deal with no toughness, no combat and arcane icons ( sharposhooter, lean and athirst) low skill character, then sorry, rebuild your deck. Or tap him (lowblow, 7th house)

On the other hand - west and metor - agreed - these 2 cards are OVERPOWERED, no question about that.

there is nothing wrong with overpowered, but i really think dreamlands messenger is broken in mixed format. that card basically blocks everything in lcg and not every faction has a varity of ways to deal with characters. and lets not forget shub has plenty of ways to get him out, so its not like the odds of drawing messenger are the same as getting a pulp writer out.

and i dont think there is anything wrong with west either.

how can you say west is overpowered and not ithaqua? west has a one time, 3 or lower, grab ability unless you start sacking things, but you wont gain any characters. ithaqua lets you grab anything that isnt an AO, every turn, or more often if combo'd.

Urban makes a good point. Am I right in saying you would prefer legacy remains at FAQ 2.0 and have an unofficial dead status, except as played locally? Just thought I'd examine if mixed border is problematic. Granted, a legacy player with a mixed border pool posesses favorable odds when matched with an LCG deck. I'm not worried that FFG is going to do anything official with the CCG cards, except reprint another core. I wonder if we're altogether pleased with the current dynamic.

The overpowered card debate is on. Hopefully not too frustrating to some, it's intrinsic to any legacy discussion.

Agreed.

Why? Because I think that in order to make ccg-cards compatible with lcg cards ffg should either banned a lot of them (some form the cards mentioned above, plus a lot more, or issue a new errata for all of them, like Ithaqua's ability can only be played once per turn and on yog characters only).

Remember, lcg cards supposed to make game slower, no 1-2 turn wins etc. Either that, or new lcg-cards should be at the same power level as forgotten cities, for example. And I think ffg doesn't want that.

So we are where we are right now:)

BTW - Ithaqua vs west - give me ithaqua any day. Why? he has no saving disrupt, so if you have a card that will kill him, he dies (OK, I'm assuming the opponent is not playing Hastur/Yog and has no power drain or wrack for my shotgun blast).

ALso - you can have only ONE Ithaqua on the table. And unless you play Yog/Shub and so have acces to ancient guardian and Y'go he will use his ability only once per turn ( on the other hand yog with shub is a great combination, so more often then not the above situation can happened)

West is not uniqe. you can have 3 on the table (I've been on the reciving end of 3 wests, and trust me, it is not pretty). Plus - you play shotgun blast, opponent saves him. And again, and again. So you have to kill the rest of his charaters first.

Tust me, I feel sick and tired of playing against west and mentor AND putting them in my (tournaments) decks. Normally i don't use'em. It's like make 50-cards deck, but fisrt 6 cards are fixed :/

(OK, I use 3x mentor + 2x West, but you get the idea... )

What if a legacy deck were allowed one each of any of these cards? Even Assistant to Dr. West could be the boring choice, and not be unfair. Everyone expect one. Yig and Ithaqua are too proud for errate. Rather they perish. But one each won't speed up the game too much. Anyway, the three card rule has already randomized any semblance of original four. Why not a random killer or four to go along? And that tricky final lock down combo that nobody mortal understands or remembers, could have one of the cards go single.

I think limiting those powerful actions like for instance Ithaqua's, to one per turn is a good idea and could be included in the new FAQ for CCG.

So, Max Wax states that Ithaqua is just too powerful as is. I suggested One Ithaqua per deck. I'm just not skilled enough to be able to say. Ithaqua's combo to infinitely trigger every discarded card into play is broken? It is not mitigated enough making it a tougher combo? Too easy to extract a single Ithaqua from your deck? Urban points out if you have a card that will kill Ithaqua, he dies. But what if he crosses the International Date Line, plays power drain to your shotgun blast, or Wrack your Short Fuse, or Yhtil your DOA or fudge your undies. Those two opponents must then take a break.

He's just such a hugely awesome card. The one turn slap down might be undiginfied for one so horrendous. Shing Trap never felt the same. The Behated The Rip Off is gone. The once flashy Saturnalias, Bubastis, Theosophists, Venerations I miss. They were a nice crutch for casual play. For FC R91, one per deck or one action per turn or banned or not or something else. If there are indeed a lot more cards to consider, the concept might be too tedious or too specific or pigeon holed or farcical. Or perhaps it is still rather simple to generally agree, to do a couple tweaks.

I understand it is contrary to the intended LCG. LCG is new and working and fun and functional. It is not to endanger this new course. Legacy rather maintains and honors the history of the game. As do Cores. I still like my older decks too. That's all I'm saying.

if you limit a card to one per deck its basically a ban. competitive decks need to be consistent. there is no way to build around a card that you cant count on. so instead youll find a card that does something close to what you want, even if its not as good, or not use that idea at all.

when agot did there 1x thing it was a bit different, that game has(had) quite a few search your deck for a card abilities. coc has call of cthulhu, but cant count on that either.

PearlJamaholic said:

I play yog/shub, with Ithaqua restricted.

What cards I normally have? (normally - wih 3x Ithaqua) - since Im running yog/shub, I run Ygo too, perhaps Nyarli (depends on build) - so a lot of ancient ones (at least 3, if not 9 - usually 9 ). So cthulhu for president comes naturally in - it fits my deck strategy.

Also, since I need to make the best of my draws, and I run yog, i use journey to the other side. And shocking transformations to thin out my deck of non-AO charaters that are needed on the table.

And now I have to work with only 1 copy of Itqahua. what do I do? I need more ways to find him. Enter Lawinia Whateley (as expected). So now I have 6 cards to find him, 6 more to either find him sooner or thin out my deck. Not bad I say. Sure, it will take a round more ( or 2 rounds) and perhaps that will be THE ROUND my opponent wins. Perhaps.

West & mentor - these are champion's cards. Don't expect them to be banned or errated. Perhaps restricted... A pity cost-reducing rituals were banned - a lot of people quited the game because of that. Why there is no banned card in MtG? Even though the restricted list is very long? And you can still play with Yawgmoth's will, even if banning that one card would make the restricted list very much shorter? Well beacuse Wizards of the cost want people to play with every card they have, even if it means with one copy of some of those cards.

And ffg have shown, that they ban cards without thinking of their players. Basically, most of the ccg times cards is tournament-banned. (with the exeption of core set). Probably in some time you will not be able to use old versions of reprinted cards. We will see.

So let's leave it as it is right now - with players either playing lcg only format, or older players playing with their own mixed format.

yeah but magic rotates out older cards so they never really have to ban anything cause if there is something broken errata it for now and soon enough it wont be played anyways. with the recent coreset released that would be the 3rd major block of sorts so to follow what magic does the whole AE block should be rotated out for standard.

but since this is more about a legacy format with all old cards i suppose restricted cards would be ok since legacy would be a more casual format anyways. but if were talking a standard mix border format, the idea of one of cards just seems silly to me.

Is there a way to make people vote on this forum?

I do not think that limiting some cards to one per deck is right and it does not makes sense to me. 3 cards per deck is a good rule. I just think some powerful cards should be restricted to one ability use per player's turn, that's it.

This unofficial thread is basically the vote. This is only for fun to see if we concur on how, if at all, to mix the L and the C.

Last we debated FAQ 2.1 Legacy Rules we found ourselves somewhere like here:

Pearljamaholic wants to ban Ghoul Khanum, Ithaqua, Mentor, Yig, maybe Ancient Gold, maybe MU story token abilities, maybe Balance of Thoth. Dreamlands Messenger he says is broken, too good a LCG blocker with few answers, too easy to Shub out. But he likes Assisant to Dr. West.

Urban says Ithaqua is not overpowered, and gives good agency and hastur options. Dreamlands Messenger too is vulnerable for many reasons with no toughness, no combat and arcane icons.
West and Mentor he deems “OVERPOWERED, no question about that.”

Max Wax suggests that one Ithaqua card per deck is useless, does nothing for deck strategy, can’t be relied upon, and would be a token addition. He’d rather see him limited to one action per turn.

What would be the response to this first proposal.

1.Limit one card per deck: Ghoul Khanum, Mentor and West, and Dreamlands Messenger

2. Limit one action per turn: Yig and Ithaqua

3. Ancient Gold and Balance of Thoth get a pass until syndicate dominates or Thoth wins the big one.

Quite frankly, my reaction to such a faq would be the same I've had to many FFG previous FAQs: it would address false problems and completely miss what really need rebalancing and revisions.

Suggestions:

To try: remove the ban from the cost reducer rituals.

Adressing combos: Faq all the Ritual events which have a comes back to hand conditions (Adorations, Wishes, Legacies) to come back to hand at the end of the phase or at the end of the turn (even though at 3x it might even not be needed).

E.g.

Adoration of Thoth

Type : Event
Cost : 1
Subtype : Ritual.
Game Text : Plays during your operations phase. Action: reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, put 1 of them into your hand, and discard the rest. Then, if you have played at least 1 other Ritual event this phase, return Adoration of Thoth to your hand instead of discarding it.
Flavor text :
Illustrator : Carlo Bocchio
Collector's Info : MN C27

Becomes:

Adoration of Thoth

Type : Event
Cost : 1
Subtype : Ritual.
Game Text : Plays during your operations phase. Action: reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, put 1 of them into your hand, and discard the rest. Then, if you have played at least 1 other Ritual event this phase, return Adoration of Thoth to your hand from your discard pile at the end of the phase (at the end of the turn) .
Flavor text :
Illustrator : Carlo Bocchio
Collector's Info : MN C27

Faq all the characters in the Messenger cycle to have their action useable only during an operation phase.

E.g.

Black Wind

Type : Character
Cost : 3
Skill : 2
Icons : T
Subtype : Messenger.
Game Text : Toughness +1. Action: sacrifice Black Wind to move a drain token from one of your domains to an undrained domain.
Flavor text :
Illustrator : Frank Walls
Collector's Info : MN U111

Becomes:

Black Wind

Type : Character
Cost : 3
Skill : 2
Icons : T
Subtype : Messenger.
Game Text : Toughness +1. Action: sacrifice Black Wind to move a drain token from one of your domains to an undrained domain.

Use this ability only during operation phase.
Flavor text :
Illustrator : Frank Walls
Collector's Info : MN U111

Mixed border is either a collection of broken decks, or nerfed in such a way that Legacy players don't recognize their game anymore. I think it's the hardcore brokenness is what the main appeal of the format is. It's beyond hope, really, if you are looking for a 'healthy' legacy format.

Carioz adds more detail to the trouble cards. Nice job, and great post recently.

One can play the old game and play mixed border. You may likely be right that the fixes are too many or too invasive or too convoluted or whatever. It won't be easy to agree upon. It won't be a royal standard. It won't be perfect.Whatever the argument, it is here that it need be aired. Especially those who are wise enough to explain why certain things can't or must change, should voice their point here. I think this tact of conversation, this debate, is crucial to explore. I'll stop beating a dead horse, but I won't ignore the many voices who speak of still playing mixed border or wish they could figure out why they can't, or those who will leave unless they see more mixed border.

So, Marius, please do your best to explain why the idea is dead on arrival. There are obstacles. Let's talk them out and see where we are then.

Carioz suggests Adorations. Wishes, and Legacies go to discard then back to hand at end of turn for one use per turn.

1x MN C9 Adoration of Ma'at
1x MN C27 Adoration of Thoth
1x MN C45 Adoration of Maahes
1x MN C63 Adoration of Apep
1x MN C81 Adoration of Yhtill
1x MN C99 Adoration of Upuaut
1x MN C117 Adoration of Hetheru
1x FC U13 Wish for Strength
1x FC U31 Wish for Insight
1x FC U49 Wish for Power
1x FC U67 Wish for Cruelty
1x FC U85 Wish for Music
1x FC U103 Wish for Revelation
1x FC U121 Wish for Growth
1x EE C20 Legacy of Khufu
1x EE C48 Legacy of Akhnaton
1x EE C79 Legacy of Ramses
1x EE C110 Legacy of Alhazred
1x EE C138 Legacy of Cassilda
1x EE C167 Legacy of Nephren-Ka
1x EE C200 Legacy of Nitocrice

He suggests the Messengers' actions occur during operations only.

1x MN U7 Undercover Agent
1x MN U25 Itinerant Scholar
1x MN U44 Rambling Man
1x MN U62 Skin Weed
1x MN U75 Book Publisher
1x MN U98 Teller of Tales
1x MN U111 Black Wind

Are you thus arguing that not only can the reducer rituals come back but all the mentioned cards like Mentor and Yig etc. can stay? That would make this long list more palatable.

johnny shoes said:

Well, the cool thing about the current legacy is it's cuttroatness, the tug-o-war on the per-action level. You're fighting a hydra here: Cut off one head, 3 will pop up. And with every slash you remove someones' favorite card.

Take Ghoul Khanum. That card is friggin' cool. And it's totally dealable.

Messengers are troublesome, but they can be dealt with.

Do try, but there are different reasons for different people why they like legacy, and people will be disappointed at some point.

OK, for what it's worth, here are my thoughts on this subject:

To begin with I completely agree with all the changes Carioz proposes and for the reasons he proposes them. However, in addition I think something needs to be done about the world champions cards too. I think Yig, Ghoul Khanum, and Ithaqua (once the Messengers are tweaked) are all fine as they are. I have not encountered Ancient Gold enough in my meta to have much of an opinion.

I would either simply ban Assistant to Dr West and Mentor to Vaughn (I believe that is what the French have done in their championships) or if they were to be altered instead, I would start by making them unique (which kind of fits thematically anyway.) I would also assign each to a faction to limit their general utility (at the moment their neutral status means they tend to find their way into most of my competitive decks unless I have a really pressing reason not to include them) specifically, I think Mentor should be Syndicate, Assistant should be Yog.

I realise this topic is really focussed on a legacy FAQ, but I would also like to see something done about the Sledge Dogs and the Descendant as well.

I think the idea of mixed legacy is to allow the tug of war to continue and to alter as little as possible.

Easy as save everything but alter west and mentor and some rituals?

1. Last we left the old environment there was indeed a combo that was very hard to beat. Broken or not, let's address that. That's the first path forward. Is limiting the Messenger action to operations phase the most elegant nerf?

2. Could we then leave the adoration, wish, and legacy rituals alone? Otherwise Discard until end of turn then to hand?

3. Assistant to Dr. West and Mentor to Vaughn - mixed borders should still honor the LCG environment by doing some playing field leveling. Do these two get the harshest treatment. There are many options.

4. Ghoul Khanum, Ithaqua, Yig - can we leave these guys alone? I'd like to keep them and not alter their text. I know one per deck neuters them as tactics...but so what. That's the compromise. We still get to play them. We can still assume them in decks, but they throw off a deck's tactics too. They're random. If this works and Assistant and West get the same treatment, that's nice and uniform.

5. As a bonus, can we bring back the reducer rituals

Dreamlands Messenger and Ancient Gold still seem saveable.

I've just seen this thread, and I'm a little mixed in my opinion

First of all, Legacy won't be a format that's gonna be supported. FFG said CCG cards are not legal in tournament. So, only the old players will practice. This ain't be a format that see it's number of players increasing...

The french nationals held (and will in the next edition) CCG/LCG tournaments. The CCG format is mixed, but a deckbuilding rule was made stating "Only 1 copy of each championcard allowed in a deck". Like Andrew said, this was limited only to Champ, cause we don't want this format to be a Highlander one.

Considering Ithaqua, Yig, Y'Go (this one is huge too), ASDogs, GK ... Well, we did'nt do anything and that did'nt matter. I'm strongly against banning.Speaking about their power is not important : GK was errated already, hope Dogs will be errated and champs will inherit a dot

Roberto's proposition is far better in my mind. I'd rather see an inclusion to the rules stating: "You can only return card from the discard to your hand at the end of the phase" Cause this should also fix a card like "Endless interogation", used multiple times.

or something in the rules stating that the card who inherits the messenger subtype have a specific timing of actions, like "only during operation phase".

I'd rather see a LEGACY Rule than a LEGACY FAQ, as I really dislike the cards to be touched

I agree that the language Legacy Rule is softer than Legacy FAQ.

Adoration, Wish, and Legacy Rituals - come back to hand at the end of the phase.

Subtype Messenger Actions during operations phase only.

------------------

Leave the dogs alone for now. Leave the descendant alone for now. Leave GK, Y'G, Ith, Yig et al alone.

Assistant and Mentor - what are the options? Make them Unique. Make them Highlander, one per deck. Errata them. Leave them alone. I like one of the first two options best. What do others think.