Hey all, sorry if this has already been asked/addressed, but the Search function on these boards is nothing if not horrific in its functionality, and I can't find anything pertaining to it. So, having thus apologized, here be my question:

In my games, one of my Acolytes has always been a melee-based fighter, typically a Guardsman or Arbitrator. Typically to help them in this regard, they have used the basic Shields offered in the Player's Handbook; +15 to Parry is nothing to sneer at, and given their specialty, it made sense for them to use it. All was well and dandy - they used the shield in one hand and a weapon in the other, and things were great.

Recently, though, I've begun wondering if I'm using the Shield right. My Acolytes were just on Scintilla this past game, and made the logical stop at the Goldenhand, to do some well-deserved shopping. To my chagrin, basically all of them picked up a shield - after all, especially with Quickdraw, why WOULDN'T you just take a free +15 to your Parry check? Even characters like my Tech Priest, who relies mostly on his hellgun and ranged combat, picked one up - it didn't make sense for his character, really, but doubtlessly it makes a lot of sense in combat.

Have I been running shields wrong? The Defensive quality states that the weapon gives +15 to Parry and -10 to Attacks made with the weapon, but no one ever attacks with the shield, and that penalty doesn't count for simply wielding it, correct? Also, I haven't been counting them as 2-weapon wielding when they've been using a weapon + shield combo; after all, they're not making attacks with that second weapon. Have I been counting this wrong, and should they be taking 2-weapon penalties on making attacks with their main weapon, if they're using a shield as well?

I just find it hard to believe that one can pick up a shield for whatever measley amount of thrones specified in the handbook, and can instantly get a +15 to their Parry checks. From a balance perspective it makes little sense, and from a character perspective it makes even less, as characters with no business toting shields begin taking them around just because, hey, they're -that good-.

Of course, using a shield means you can't swing with 2-weapons, make Dual Attacks or anything like that. But for some characters, I think that's hardly an even trade. Gah. What do you all think?

No, you've been counting it right. The RAW specifically states that you can use an off-hand weapon to just parry without any penalties.

I don't see anything wrong with the way they're handled in the RAW. A shield IS a cheap, effective way to handle Melee attacks. Not having a second hand free is a pretty big penalty. Consider making them their shield to reload, or climb, or drive, or pick something up, or anything else you feel like.

Give them penalties to social interaction, too. People will look at you funny if you're walking around with a shield in the grimdark, remind them of that at every point possible.

Also, consider tossing a power weapon at them, it'll make short work of their shields.

The issue with a shield is that it's not exactly a small or inobtrusive piece of equipment. Any shield will not be an object easily hidden, let alone easily stored where they can be swiftly recovered, and even uses of things like Quick Draw are still subject to common sense (afterall, just because you have Quick Draw doesn't mean it makes sense for you to be able retrieve a pistol from the bottom of a heavily-laden backpack in under a second, and the necessarily large and awkward nature of shields is a similar inconvenience).

The Arbitrator in my group owned, and occasionally used, a shield. It was invaluable, in those situations where he could anticipate and prepare for heavy combat, mainly as cover while advancing (with either a shock maul or a recoil glove and auto-shotgun in the other hand, obviously). It's not, however, the kind of thing that's appropriate for undercover work or anything other than open battle, same as a lot of extremely useful combat items (heavy weapons, for example - nobody can deny that a heavy weapon is powerful... but they're hardly subtle, and that matters).

In addition to the above comments, the fact that all your players up and nabbed a shield seems to say that your combats are heavily skewed to melee. If that's not hat you want, use "bad guys" who prefer guns, guns, and more guns as opposed to swords and knives -after all, you can't parry a bullet. Granted, the shield makes for good quick cover, it's not the best cover around and using one as cover will rapidly destroy it as it's whittled away by gunfire. Still, it's quite the valid tactic, though, as N0-1 pointed out, don't forget that these fellas are totting around the shields when they are and have NPC's respond appropriately. The greatest countermeasure to any weapon or ordinance is societies reaction to it after all.

Remember that you may only parry once each turn, twice with Wall of Steel and the shields bonus doesn't stack with similar bonuses from mainhand weapons, so it is just a 5% edge (no pun intended) over having any sword. I'd rather have a sword (of the appropriate type) in my mainhand and some other weapon in my offhand (handflamers are awesome), or a decent doublehanded sword if any can be found. Compared to the historical fighting I've done, as well as judging by calculations within the gaming system, I find the DH rules for shields make very little impact on a fight and thus I rarely use them. I expect all competent combatants to gang up and focus their attacks on one target, expecting the first one or two attacks to be parried or dodged. Give your next group of opponents Double Team, that will help you remember to fight unfair ;-)

Schlobo said:

Schlobo said:

I think you underestimate the advantage of having a free hand, or dual wielding. Sure, if all the combat are in close quaerters with autopistols and melee weapons, then yeah carrying a shield isn't a bad move unless you also have to be inconspicous. For example, in Hive Sibellus anyone with weapons larger than one-handed pistols and knives will be stopped and asked for mercenary license or some such. Those carry shields will in any case stand out in a crowd thus ruining their investigation.

Also, in most combats 2-handed weapons out-damage one handers, be it a great weapon or a humble autogun.

Hey guys,

thought I'd use this thread to ask a question about shields.

As far as I've understood it, if you use a shield (like the Guard Shield in the Inquisitor's Handbook, p. 180) as cover vs ranged weapons there are no set rules as to which body parts are exposed.

IH states: "Guard shields can provide cover for the user concealing all of their body should they choose"

and the core book states on cover: "It is up to the player to decide which parts of his body he is exposing when behind cover"

Now obviously, any Adept worth his salt will expose as little of himself as possible. If you find yourself on flat ground vs someone firing full-auto on you, the shield will probably be the only thing standing behind you and dying gloriously for the sake of the emperor.

Our GM has ruled that generally, using a guard shield as cover and firing a weapon with your other hand will expose the head (since you need to see) and your firing arm. Sounds fair right? Or?

Also, another question...what if you have a shield in your hand, and in addition you're taking cover behind e.g. a wooden door? If someone shoots at you they'd have to get through both layers to damage you right?

Yep Nihilius that the rules we use. Similarly if you need to move with any speed your legs will be exposed. Hoever sheilds used as cover will suffer damage.

Cover should stack but I think it will probably be damaged individulally (assuming the shot is strong enough to get through both).

I'll second Graver's comment. If combat is nothing but melee with lots of melee weapons with the primitive quality, perhaps it's not so surprising that everybody grabbed a shield. Seriously, I can think of several different ways to defeat shields. Just off of the top of my head:

1. Fire (flame throwers will certainly work. Molotov cocktails will, too, and let's also not forget willy pete, a.k.a. white phosphorous)

2. Explosives (toss a grenade behind the shield wall and see what happens. Use a nail bomb if you're into improvised explosives)

3. Gas (shields won't help you against tear gas. They won't help against hallucinogen grenades, either)

4. Fully automatic firearms with AP rounds (sooner or later, that shield is going to start looking like swiss cheese and thus become useless)

5. A net (untangling yourself is already going to be a problem. Adding a shield just complicates things)

Several of the things I've named above are pretty low tech and otherwise easily found or fabricated, so you shouldn't have too much trouble justifying the opposition to having them.

Mellon said:

What he said. A shield is merely +5% parry compared to a sword. A sword can be used to attack (then suffering two-weapon-wielding penalties), is way easier to conceal/stow away and later on comes with plenty benefits: the Power special quality (destroy weapon with parry), Blademaster (reroll one missed attack per round) and Counter-attack (to combine both aspects of the weapon, its good ability to parry due to the Balanced quality with its high damage and the Blademaster reroll, Counter-attack is always made with the weapon you parried with).

If anything I think the corebook's Defensive quality is underpowered compared to the Balanced quality. I reckon that's why they upgraded IH shields to provide some cover (i.e. armor) too.

Look at Page 197 under Two-Weapon Fighting and in the first line you will see your possible answer. I guess it also depends if your need a talent to use the shield too and if you do, then I say you need the Two-Weapon Wielder Talent too.

Look at Page 197 under Two-Weapon Fighting and in the first line you will see your possible answer. I guess it also depends if your need a talent to use the shield too and if you do, then I say you need the Two-Weapon Wielder Talent too.

If you go on to take a look a little below the first line, the text further states that you need TWW to attack with both hands and that you don't even receive a penalty if all you do with the secondary hand is parrying.

Take a look at the Quick Draw talent again. It can only be used with suitable weapons. I would say this means holstered pistols and melee weapons. A shield, in my opinion is too bulky to quickly retrieve and mount unless it was lying on the ground and the acolyte snatches it up in a spin-turn-block fluid movement (in which case you could demand an acrobatics test first).

You can't quick draw a Man Portable Lascannon!

Cifer said:

it clearly says " blah blah blah parrying with your offhand is not an attack so it does suffer the offhand penalties." errata has nothing on it...

so without any ambidextrous talents or stuff do I get -20 to parry with my offhand shield and +15 for the defensive trait and come up as -5?

hell am I supposed to hold my shield in my mainhand or what?

neither shields nor parry nor 2 hand fighting rules nor the errata covers anything about this... without the fine shields of the IH it comes down to

use your shield in your mainhand or get ambidex or it doesn't do anything good for you

(no cover no armour and parry without ambidex is at -5)

a few more questions:

Guard shield... can I fire a weapon with only my main hand exposed? (I think so)

if guards hield & naval shield are made from plasteel (high quality plasteel in case of guardshield) and the guardshield is heavier why does it give less AP?

and if a naval shield can seal a vacuum leak does anything out of plasteel with about 8 AP integrity withhold vacuum? (as I get it it's just a freaking flat plate of plasteel with a grip to wear it as a shield) or why does it lack the 16-32 AP that are mentioned in the books for plasteel cover?

when a vanaheim hits me 9 times with 8+ damage (1 hit full auto for 4 extra hits 2 extra hits for scatter) is my naval shield toast? can I still parry with it? can I repair it or is it lost? (and how much hits can it take bevore it can't seal vacuum leaks anymore?)

can conceal my whole body if wanted... yes I want this ... at all times...so does it cover me from a foe who is shooting at me while I melee another one? (with my other hand)

(shooting a completely conceald target is at -30)

shield rules are virtually non existent

so if I take the equivalent size of a plasteel wall (AP32) what would it weight and how hard can it bee to affix a naval shield grip onto it? (using the trade armourer skill)

didn't want to open up another shield thread

edit: I'm the one with the shield in our group and usually our sniper takes cover behind me (being behind my shield too getting cover too)

it clearly says " blah blah blah parrying with your offhand is not an attack so it does suffer the offhand penalties." errata has nothing on it...

so without any ambidextrous talents or stuff do I get -20 to parry with my offhand shield and +15 for the defensive trait and come up as -5?

hell am I supposed to hold my shield in my mainhand or what?

If you read the entire sentence, it's pretty clear it's a typo, errata or not:
"This weapon skill test is not an attack and therefore it does suffer the standard penalty for attacks made using your secondary hand."
If you find any interpretation that makes the "therefore" not completely nonsensical, I'd be delighted to hear it.

a few more questions:

Guard shield... can I fire a weapon with only my main hand exposed? (I think so)

I'd have to look up the description, but you'd most likely have to expose your head unless you want to fire blindly.

if guards hield & naval shield are made from plasteel (high quality plasteel in case of guardshield) and the guardshield is heavier why does it give less AP?

Has the Naval Shield the same "cover entire body"-rule? If not, it's probably smaller but denser than the large but thin guardshield.

and if a naval shield can seal a vacuum leak does anything out of plasteel with about 8 AP integrity withhold vacuum? (as I get it it's just a freaking flat plate of plasteel with a grip to wear it as a shield) or why does it lack the 16-32 AP that are mentioned in the books for plasteel cover?

We don't know exactly much about plasteel. I'd assume it's possible that there are several varieties, differing in what kinds of stress they can bear - I'm not an engineer, but I suppose a weapon impact and the "sucking" vacuum would necessitate different traits for resistant materials.

when a vanaheim hits me 9 times with 8+ damage (1 hit full auto for 4 extra hits 2 extra hits for scatter) is my naval shield toast? can I still parry with it? can I repair it or is it lost? (and how much hits can it take bevore it can't seal vacuum leaks anymore?)

It certainly can't seal leaks - in fact, I'd assume it can't do that completely after the first hit that breached the shield. Parrying might be awkward at the very least. I would allow it, but remove the benefit of the Defensive trait.

can conceal my whole body if wanted... yes I want this ... at all times...so does it cover me from a foe who is shooting at me while I melee another one? (with my other hand)

(shooting a completely conceald target is at -30)

Firstly, I disagree about the Concealment - concealment as a rules term means essentially not knowing where the enemy is and just guessing where to fire. Unless the Guard Shield is a lot larger than I assume, it's not going to manage that - and I'm sure you don't want to argue that someone encased in Power Armour is concealed from his enemies as well, although it's technically true.
Other than that, any shield that grants you full cover from a ranged attacker while moving, striking and dodging in melee will be too cumbersome to use in said melee.

If you read the entire sentence, it's pretty clear it's a typo, errata or not:

"This weapon skill test is not an attack and therefore it does suffer the standard penalty for attacks made using your secondary hand."
If you find any interpretation that makes the "therefore" not completely nonsensical, I'd be delighted to hear it.

it says two weapons wielder negates offhand penalties for attacks, but this si not an attack and therefore you do take offhand penalties

I'm unsure if it indeed is a typo but I sure hope so (but this would mean having a pistol in the main hand and a sword in the offhand you could parry without penalties)

Guard shield... can I fire a weapon with only my main hand exposed? (I think so)

I'd have to look up the description, but you'd most likely have to expose your head unless you want to fire blindly.

The fluff text says it (can) offer(s) a glassteel part so you can look through it

Has the Naval Shield the same "cover entire body"-rule? If not, it's probably smaller but denser than the large but thin guardshield.

it has a part saying "total concealment" but no part for "total cover" while I think total concealment implies total cover (otherwise naval shield wouldn't cover you at all) rules say you are totally concealed if wished so (meaning it has to be at least the size of guard shield and at least the size of a machiantor array'ed tech-priest (triple weight and stuff) with 6 extra limbs) the enemy can't see where you exactly are behind the shield (ducking squeezing at the left or at the right side) he has to hit at -30 RAW

We don't know exactly much about plasteel. I'd assume it's possible that there are several varieties, differing in what kinds of stress they can bear - I'm not an engineer, but I suppose a weapon impact and the "sucking" vacuum would necessitate different traits for resistant materials.

I thought Plasteel was a kind of material (or composite) and my physics knowledge goes roughly like this if using the same material a thicker plate is less likely to be penetrated and 2 objects of the same material in the same shape have to differ in density or width if being of unequal weight while density should remain equal for the same material

but if plasteel is just a name for "some kind of high quality alloy" but not a specific one then the math can indeed look different

It certainly can't seal leaks

well fluff text says it is especially made to seal of vacuum leaks and is shaped especially for this purpose (being flat and not "not-flat")

Sirion said:

It is a type-o.

A helicopter is not a car therefore flying one is like driving a car.

Non-Alcoholic beer has no alcohol in it therefor you can get intoxicated if you drink too much.

A baby is not a cake therefore eating one is like eating a cake.

Driving 25 mph in a 30 mph zone is not speeding therefore you can get a speeding ticket if caught.

Weight training is not an effective cardiovascular exorcise therefor weight lifting is an ideal cardiovascular exorcise.

If Object A is first stated to not be Object B, it is not a logical conclusion that because of that ("therefore") Object A should function like Object B -that would be an exception ("however").

Sirion said:

He was talking about the shield after it gets penetrated. Sealing a breach with a hole riddled bit of metal won't keep the air from rushing out therefore a naval shield with holes punched in it can seal a breach.

The fluff text says it (can) offer(s) a glassteel part so you can look through it

Then your weapon arm sticking out of cover sounds right.

it has a part saying "total concealment" but no part for "total cover" while I think total concealment implies total cover (otherwise naval shield wouldn't cover you at all) rules say you are totally concealed if wished so (meaning it has to be at least the size of guard shield and at least the size of a machiantor array'ed tech-priest (triple weight and stuff) with 6 extra limbs) the enemy can't see where you exactly are behind the shield (ducking squeezing at the left or at the right side) he has to hit at -30 RAW

Any shield offering sufficient space behind it for your enemy to hit the shield but not you despite firing through it would be a severe hindrance in melee. When you take a look at modern riot shields, they're just large enough to provide full cover when you slightly duck behind them. Trying to squeeze at the left or right side will either result in part of you poking out or accomplish nothing.

I thought Plasteel was a kind of material (or composite) and my physics knowledge goes roughly like this if using the same material a thicker plate is less likely to be penetrated and 2 objects of the same material in the same shape have to differ in density or width if being of unequal weight while density should remain equal for the same material

but if plasteel is just a name for "some kind of high quality alloy" but not a specific one then the math can indeed look different

Well, "steel" in our world is a name for "some kind of high quality alloy primarily consisting of iron", but any metalworker will tell you how different the traits of certain kinds of steel can be. Considering how many uses there seem to be for plasteel, I'd consider it far-fetched that there's only one unchangeable material that has optimum traits for all of these applications.

well fluff text says it is especially made to seal of vacuum leaks and is shaped especially for this purpose (being flat and not "not-flat")

See Graver's post, although I have to admit that in retrospect, my post appears misleading. I was referring only to the "After nine hits from a Vanaheim" example.

well getting a single hit from a weapon to my naval shield does not necesserily mean it has a whole in it (maybe it bend? and reflected the shot onto my body with less force or delivered the kinetic force through the shield... just be imaginative (and not realistic please this is a rpg not a physics simulation))

so yes after I have swiss cheese because of the vanaheim it probably won't seal of vacuum leaks anymore

(after lending my shield to the psyker today the gm ruled it was destroyed completely after several force barrage hits and stuff I didn't keep track what hit it)

well with the plasteel stuff using different plasteel for different puposes... ok but both are shields? and the naval shield sure is superior meaning it should be a superior alloy for this purpose but a naval shield is cheaper, more common, and superior except for the glassteel part to look through it... so why don't they feature a naval shield with a glassteel part and sell it for the guardsmen shield-price as a superior guardsmen shield (probably without the vacuum sealing quality)... well I'll stop arguing about economy it just dosn't get into my head that naval shields are cheaper more common but superior

the bend and squeeze of course is somewaht far stretched but the one size fits all description is too... my 190cm techpriest with a machinator array (tripple weight so probably more mass and more body volume?) and 6 extra arms fits behind the same naval shield with a bit of crouching and covering as the 160cm adepta sorroritas which is lean and undernutritioned because she was walking the desert for weeks with only very little food to find...

again we can't complain because it's just rules that try to do their best... but it's the same rules that clearly state "total concealment" -> "-30 to hit if attacking enemy in total concealment" I would just house rule it to total cover but RAW it would be like -30 to hit... the same -30 as when you had a hearing based perception check to notice where the enemy is moving along one floor above you and you wanted to shoot through the ceiling.... if lucky you have point blank and it comes down to +0

so still my question about the plasteel wall is unanswered... (i don't want to block with it just have it as portable cover): how much does a naval shield sized piece of a 32AP plasteel wall weight? (provided I took a las/plasma-cutter and cut it out of a space-ship wreckage) naval shield is 8ap and weights 9kg kan I just quadrup it? 32/8*9=>36 or 1ap=1.125kg what would you rule?

(want to use a utility mechadendrite to parry which has the defensive trait which basically makes it a shield for parrying requirements and then I want a ballistic mechadendrite or manipulator mechadendrite to carry around my cover and since I'm not stuck to shields anymore I want real cover like a real wall)

about the -20 penalty for offhand... yeah I had "it does suffer the -20 penalty to BS for offhand" in my mind but it clearly says "attack" now that I reread it the third time and... you are right it is a typo

so basically I can get a 100 thrones best craftmanship knife and defend with a +20 for the same prize as a guardshield or have a best craftmanship acreage buckler for 300 thrones with a +25 to parry which doubles as a thrown weapon (captain america anyone? maybe as a psyker with his recall item power)

well getting a single hit from a weapon to my naval shield does not necesserily mean it has a whole in it (maybe it bend? and reflected the shot onto my body with less force or delivered the kinetic force through the shield... just be imaginative (and not realistic please this is a rpg not a physics simulation))

If you say so...

the bend and squeeze of course is somewaht far stretched but the one size fits all description is too... my 190cm techpriest with a machinator array (tripple weight so probably more mass and more body volume?) and 6 extra arms fits behind the same naval shield with a bit of crouching and covering as the 160cm adepta sorroritas which is lean and undernutritioned because she was walking the desert for weeks with only very little food to find...

Well, you're happy about taking a sword off an enemy without the gm going "Ok, that guy had very slender and small hands, so the grip is too small for you - -20 on all WS tests when using it.". There are some borders I wouldn't go beyond, though - anything considered Hulking by the rules should better get a custom shield made.

so still my question about the plasteel wall is unanswered... (i don't want to block with it just have it as portable cover): how much does a naval shield sized piece of a 32AP plasteel wall weight? (provided I took a las/plasma-cutter and cut it out of a space-ship wreckage) naval shield is 8ap and weights 9kg kan I just quadrup it? 32/8*9=>36 or 1ap=1.125kg what would you rule?

Good question... I'd assume it's slightly more than that, but not much. And you'll likely have to have your 'dendrite reinforced, as I don't think 36kg count as an equivalent to a one-handed or basic weapon anymore.

so basically I can get a 100 thrones best craftmanship knife and defend with a +20 for the same prize as a guardshield or have a best craftmanship acreage buckler for 300 thrones with a +25 to parry which doubles as a thrown weapon (captain america anyone? maybe as a psyker with his recall item power)

Sadly, that's not the case. When looking at the quality descriptions, it says that you get a +10 for WS rolls made to attack with the weapon. Though personally, I'd consider it an acceptable houserule to say that you can decide whether the +10 applies to attacks or parries, that's for the GM to decide.

Cifer said:

true I missed that one (need to point it out next time we play) thanks for all the input

Generally speaking the high levels of cover are things like bunkers and bulkheads. So assuming a 3 foot by 4 foot shield (about 90cm x 120cm) with a faily conservative foot thick (about 30cm) and mild steel being 7.85g per cm^3. That comes to 324,000 cm^3 and 2543kg in weight, or about 2.5 tonnes.

Is a wide ballpark but when you are lugging around a bunker grade (or main battle tank) armour slabs they start to weigh far to much to carry before you can gain any cover from it.

Give their opponents flexible weapons such as whips and flails, they cannot be parried...

I've just reread the shield and I'm still not exactly convinced about the Concealment as it was written in the flow of the text and seemed to refer to the non-game-term-y variant of 'conceal'. I mean, if I wore a mask that "concealed my face", people shooting me in the face likely wouldn't suffer a -30 penalty either, would they (and considering this is *my* face we're talking about, this is not open to experimentation)?

That's reminds me of the metal gear solid cardboard box.