Maybe I'm missing something, but I know astropaths are blind. It even says it in the career description.

Umm....then therefore shouldn't they have -30 to all BS tests and -20 to all WS tests? I mean, they are blind...

I don't see ANYTHING in the rules about this though. HALP, i mean help.

Jweedop said:

Look closely at the rules for Astropaths (I think maybe in the special abilities section at the end of the careers). Although blind, astropaths can see psychically just like normal, including walls... excepting only entities invisible to the warp (like untouchables).

In the background, the Soul Bonding gives them a form of psynescience that allows them to detect there surroundings though they are almost always (vanishingly small exceptions, unrelated to well everything, pure random chance) blind, and often lose other senses too (in the typical order: smell, taste, hearing, touch). If they lose touch it greatly limits there applications.

Yep, found it. I have to say, the book is awesome, but some of the layout could have been done better. I wish that stuff was right with the career.

Do astropaths see in complete darkness ?

Could they wear a bucket as Helmet an still see ?

Do walls block their sight ?

Do they have a 180° oder 360° vision ?

Nice background idea but very difficult for the Gm to handle espacially with the missing discrition in the RT rulebook.

The ruls on page 72 say that they are treated as if they can see, including seeing colours and being limited by walls. But they are not affected by thins which target their vision. Since they are immune to blind grenades (high tech smoke), I'd say that they are also immune to darkness because it is quite clear that they don't need light.

I count them as having sight that is unaffected by smoke, mist, darkness and simmilar but still blocked by walls and such. Powerfull enemy psykers can however block this sight and a zoantrope did this during the first game I held.

I've been tempted to treat it almost as if the Astropath is 'borrowing' the sight of those nearby - he builds a picture of his surroundings from glimpses of what other people nearby see (he is, afterall, a telepath) and his own psychic perception, so his ability to 'see' is essentially that of a normal human being, with a few minor differences.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Interesting, though they'd have trouble if noone was around.

Personally, I don't much care for the treatment of Seeing without Eyes, however. It's like someone sat down and though, "you know what's cool? Blind Mystics! We need Blind Mystics! But Being blind isn't cool, so they can see normally. There, that works! They're a Blind Mystic which can see normally just like anyone else."

Why make them blind in the first place if that's going to have absolutely noting to do with anything at all? It just doesn't sit too well wit me. In my version of the 40k universe aka my game, I'll be treating their Seeing without Eyes in a much more mystical way as more of an extension of psyniscience. They will be able to naturally sense tings around them, behind them, where ever and this sense will function a lot like radar. It will tell them where things are and what those things are but it won't tell them what things look like. They will know they are standing 1m from a large wall, to their right is a big box and popping up from behind it is a man with a gun. They wouldn't be able to tell you the color the wall's painted, what the box is made of (unless they feel it) what the facial expression of the gunman is or even what features he has, nor what pattern the gun he has is. They might be able to deduce the kind of gun based on it's general size. Basically, they will generally know where stuff is without knowing much about said stuff, just it's spacial location in comparisons to them.

In my game, if someone's going to be blind, then, **** it, that actually has to mean something.

Graver said:

Astropaths have had that kind of extrasensory perception since they were described in the original Rogue Trader/1st Edition 40k. It's hardly something new.

Looking in WH40K:RT, it reads:

" 2 Astropaths are blind but have a form of near-sense which allows them to sense normally visible objects within 20 meters (10 tabletop inches). Up to this distance they may shoot, fight etc normally." (missing punctuation original, under special rules.)

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Oh, yes, I know. But in the original RT, it wasn't so much sight (colors and all for Christ's sake!) as it was strait up sensing. They were simply able to sense things around them for 20m that would normally be visible. I don't mind that, it's nice and Blind Mystic-y though I thought when I first read it way back, and still do, that it feels a touch like a cop-out, it's tolerable and has a bit of charm to it. But taking it a step further and just making them see even though they're blind, which is what the new RT dose, is pushing it too far in my opinion. It losses the mystique of being a Blind Mystic because there's absolutely nothing blind about them.

I wouldn't allow an Astropath to see through a 'bucket' over his head. He can't see through walls - not even silk screens or paper walls - so the bucket is right out too. OTOH, they seem to have pseudosight that can also see through visually transparent materials - like glass - so I'd just say to treat it in all ways like normal sight including having the Astropath's eye sockets being the receptor for the pseudosight. If those are covered by a non transparent material, the pseudosight is blocked.

Personally, I don't much care for the treatment of Seeing without Eyes, however. It's like someone sat down and though, "you know what's cool? Blind Mystics! We need Blind Mystics! But Being blind isn't cool, so they can see normally. There, that works! They're a Blind Mystic which can see normally just like anyone else."

Normally, I'd totally agree with you here - I've been in a few games with another player playing a blind character ( except his other senses are totally sharp, so he isn't any worse than others - did I mention he can smell the colour of paint? ). However, in this case, the alternative would be to foist one of the two strongest handicaps in existence (the other being paralysis) upon one of the core classes of the game. Considering you usually want those classes to be "one for every one", limiting one of them to people who want to play an actual blind character seems rather... problematic.

Of course, the third possibility would have been to have the main class be another sanctioned Psyker with offshots in the Astropath and other directions, but since there already is a sanctioned psyker class and they've done away with branching careers...

Cifer said:

I've played a blind character before (that couldn't smell the color paint much less someone rigt infront of him [smoker] and his hearing was normal). He was honest to goodness blind and that's how I played him. His shtick was his large network of homeless folks who always knew what was going down where (no one ever notices them hanging about and listing in...) allowing him to pick up on some major clues when needed (if it happened, he could find out about it... eventually) or act as the plot-hook monkey. Of course he also happened to have a seeing eye dog which was possessed by his dead wife who was a touch over protective of him (it was Unknown Armies after all). If an astropath were to be completely blind, they could have a seeing eye servo-skull, or a seeing eye cybersaber wolf for some real fun. But having them completely blind isn't necessary, just less vision oriented as their original description seemed to indicate.

While they are a core character, there are seven other core characters. You shouldn't sacrifice unique flavor opportunity for some tasteless bland mush that everyone could digest. If noone plays an astropath, it's no big loss, they aren't required to be a PC (and are damned easy to make NPC's, after all, the lesser astropaths rarely have much of a personality left, so grab one, call it Nokia, strap it to your back and go!). However, making them blind and then completely negating that blindness fully and totally for no good reason is just bad character design -it smacks of Mary-Sueism. "I have this tragic crippling flaw but look, its okay because it doesn't affect me at all in any way conceivable!" That's just weak.

Graver said:

Thing is, with Astropaths, you don't get a choice in the matter. They're blind, and don't have a chance to be not blind. How do you accomodate (without referring to Dark Heresy for the other psyker career path) players wanting to play Psyker characters that lack a crippling handicap like that?

Beyond that, should blindness always be played as a "tragic crippling flaw"? With regards to Astropaths, their blindness is a quirk, an unsettling trait that means they never make eye contact with everyone (and may not even have eyes), and may even blindfold themselves to cover up their worthless eye-sockets. At this point, it's essentially just a source of interesting ways to describe the character, rather than an absolute and fundamental defining trait (Astropaths already have one - being psychic). It doesn't have to be over-analysed and agonised over.

It's not "blind men who have the ability to project their thoughts over vast distances", it's "telepaths who, by the way, can't see the world normally". It's a secondary consideration, an incidental oddity, and deliberately so.

Just because they can discern colours, etc, doesn't mean they see exactly like everyone else does. Their 'sight' is psychic, and will inherently come with all manner of other issues related to perceiving things via the Warp (because they're not actually seeing, but rather interpreting the thoughts of those nearby and the echoes in the warp that all things have).

I believe that Astropaths are affected by darkness. I don't have my rulebook in front of me, but I believe they get Blind-fighting at rank 2. Check the description of that talent, but the primary focus of it (if I recall correctly) not getting a penalty to fighting in darkness.

So, basically, their 'vision' is the same as everyone elses'. They just aren't affected by things like flash grenades.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I must definitly concede the last point to you but the book doesn't really cover that. The fact tat, by the new RT, there's no discernible difference in their "sight" from someone who isn't blind is the only thing I have an issue with. If there's issues with them perceiving things via the Warp, then excellent, that fixes things. The problem I was having is the fact that, by the book, there is absolutely no drawback, no oddity, no bonus, no difference, no nothing to their way of sensing their surroundings (except that they can't perceive Untouchables... that'll come up a lot I'm sure). It makes the blind part of the astropath utterly pointless. The fact tat they can get blind figting as devang pointed out sows that they can be blinded futhering the fact that they aren't blind in any way, shape, or form.

I don't think the blind part of being an astropath is merely a quirk or an incidental oddity (and in this incarnation of RT, they simply aren't blind at all). They are losing their bloody senses because of what they do. Isolation due to sensory deprivation as a sacrifice for what they must do for the greater good of the Imperiuum is a major part of what an astropath is -it's their theme as they are a part of the overall martyrdom and sacrifice theme that pervades 40k. I agree with your statement that astropaths are "telepaths who, by the way, can't see the world normaly" but, unfortunately, as presented in the new RT book, they are "telepaths who do see the world normally and, oh, by the way, are also blind but don't worry about that, it's strictly cosmetic because they're really not."

I would have preferred it if the Seeing without Eyes had focused more on the idea and feeling of the word "sensing" and what "near-sense" could entail as opposed to simply hand waiving away the blindness (which has so much potential) by saying that they can still essentially see like everybody else. By the description in the original RT, their near-sense feels a lot more like an advanced and sharp spacial awareness to me which would come with its own perks and drawbacks.

If I were interpreting the near-sense from the old RT, I would have said that the astropath would know where everything normally visible was around them for 20m (and maybe even through thin walls and solid matter up to a total of 15cm perhaps). They sense all things all the time without having to turn and look at it, so no sneaking up on them from behind, etc. This could even give them something like a +10 to perception checks for things in their 20m radius of awareness because they simply know it's there. However, not only do they lose any far sight, but they also could not tell you what something looks like because they don't see it, they simply know it exists and where it is. This would enable them to function normally in most situations (walk about, hit fellas in the face, shot fellas, not fall into that pit, etc), give them a bone in the form of being able to sense things all around them really well even through thin amounts of solid matter, but still have the distinct flavor of being blind in that they can't actually describe what something looks like, read that scroll, read your body language and facial expressions, etc. In my humble opinion, that would have a lot more flavor, color, fit better with the over-all astropath theme, and have a touch more awesome then the current handwavery of Seeing without Eyes.

It would also clear up any question about them being able to sense their surroundings with a bucket over their head or any other similar silly situation ;-)

this is an interesting dicussion so i have to put my 2 cents in:

first this class is NOT an astropath... it is an astropath trancendent.... sounds a little uber to me.

second they can at first level have a 5+ km radius of sensing people... i know it's not sight but that is kinda awesome anyway... and an order of power above the mere 20m a normal astropath could sense in the original RT.

third... yes they see... as the GM determine the nature of their sight (ie:warp) and make use of it... if they are seeing through the warp have they see things slightly differently, as the warp in not a perfect mirror... have them see visions that can drive them insane if you want... it simply opens up an entire relm of possible material for you to use to make you game more interesting so USE it.

As a note, Slaugth are all Untouchables so if you plan on pulling them over from DH, your AT will have something that slips into his blindspot.

Knightmare said:

It is described as that the Astropath can "see" sort of like how normal people do for all intents and purposes. But they have some limitations as well. They can't see untouchables at all and other warp phenomena will probably block their sight as well.

Cryhavok said:

It is basically the same thing. The difference between an astropath and an astropath trancendent is the fact that the latter have served on missions well beyond imperial space without having other astropaths as "company" (i.e being able to "chat" with the ones located a few hundred lightyears or so away).

Varnias Tybalt said:

Actually, the astropath transcendent is the "best of the best" amongst astropaths. They have controlled choirs of others before and therefore have the most experience. It's for this reason that they are assigned to Rogue Traders. You know how it is... don't send the mook to represent the psychers of humanity.

Also, what Graver said is somewhat inaccurate. This statement is not entirely true to fluff:

"They are losing their bloody senses because of what they do. Isolation due to sensory deprivation as a sacrifice for what they must do for the greater good of the Imperiuum is a major part of what an astropath is -it's their theme as they are a part of the overall martyrdom and sacrifice theme that pervades 40k."

They are blind due to the Soul-Binding ritual, not due to sensory deprivation. The ritual cripples them in whatever way it will... the rest is true though, it is a sacrifice, and the theme of 40K.

Astropaths see through the Warp.. the realm of emotions. Therefore, they perceive people and objects due to the emotional imprint they leave in the Warp. Since your emotions dictate your Aura (if you believe in that), then you would see someone in the warp as clearly as if they were standing in front you.... however, you would see their emotions more than them. For instance, a brooding person would be seen in shades of gray with smoke over their eyes to represent the way that they see the world. This is just an example of how an astropath could "see" without actually seeing physically. There is evidence in the fluff that this is indeed the way that astropaths "see". In the Eisenhorn novels, his astropath would perform readings for him on objects they would find. Those objects would have the emotional imprint of those that created it and of those that had handled the object prior. This would also explain how an astropath can see inanimate objects. Even space ships have a "spirit" that they would be able to see in the Warp.

There are also other psychic powers that take adavantage of this emotional sight, such as Dowsing and Psychometry, that gives more proof that this is how an Astropath would perceive their world.

It makes for a VERY interesting character... if only you understand what other sources of fluff have already mentioned and put them all together to form a picture of their perceptions. Granted, the Rogue Trader book does not do this.. and I was only able to form this image by reading as much as I have about 40K from over the years.

When I run my 40K campaign, the above is how I'm going to explain what they See without Seeing.

Hope this helped someone out there.