If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.

This is exceedingly poor reasoning.

Is it though? Every turn you don't use the full combo, points are being wasted.

Yes, it is. That's like saying every time Corran doesn't gain a shield from R2-D2 you are wasting points....

That's misleading, as Corran physically can't. However, Poe, and this combo, can be used every turn. And on turns where you don't use it, you forgo using it for an extra turn. In a game where two heavy laser cannon attacks can take you out, you need your best chances to survive. And if you want to do anything but corner slowly or go in a straight line, ou're forgoing upgrades. That's a waste.

If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.

This is exceedingly poor reasoning.

Is it though? Every turn you don't use the full combo, points are being wasted.

Yes, it is. That's like saying every time Corran doesn't gain a shield from R2-D2 you are wasting points....

That's misleading, as Corran physically can't. However, Poe, and this combo, can be used every turn. And on turns where you don't use it, you forgo using it for an extra turn. In a game where two heavy laser cannon attacks can take you out, you need your best chances to survive. And if you want to do anything but corner slowly or go in a straight line, ou're forgoing upgrades. That's a waste.

I see logic is not your strong suit.

You are saying that every time you don't use it it is a waste and that makes it bad. What you are not understanding is that you don't have to use it every turn for the points to not be wasted, just like R2-D2 doesn't have to regen a shield every turn to not be wasted.

If you use it 2 times a game and yet the psychological and strategic impact of doing so is significant enough it will make the 5 (but really 2, since most will take PtL or Predator anyway) points well worth it. Just like R2-D2 regenning only 1-2 shields in a game does.

You just don't value the movement options and shenanigans it gives you, which is fine. But please do not argue it isn't a good combo, because you are wrong at this time. Maybe we will creep to a point that it sucks, but I seriously doubt it.

If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.

This is exceedingly poor reasoning.

Is it though? Every turn you don't use the full combo, points are being wasted.

Yes, it is. That's like saying every time Corran doesn't gain a shield from R2-D2 you are wasting points....

That's misleading, as Corran physically can't. However, Poe, and this combo, can be used every turn. And on turns where you don't use it, you forgo using it for an extra turn. In a game where two heavy laser cannon attacks can take you out, you need your best chances to survive. And if you want to do anything but corner slowly or go in a straight line, ou're forgoing upgrades. That's a waste.

If Corran has R2D2 equipped, and doesn't execute a green maneuver after taking shield damage (because his opponent planned on such a thing, so doing so would get him killed compared to a hard turn with a barrel roll), does that make R2D2 into wasted points?

Your logic here just makes no sense. There's nothing in the game that works and can be used every turn. A lot of times, you have to rely on the threat of things to force your opponent to make sub-optimal decisions.

So I guess PTL sucks on Corran too? The same reasoning applies to him surely?

Except PTL Corran is great fun. You just have learn when to forgo pushing or indeed keeping the stress.

I'm not saying the R5P9 build isn't solid, can't really go wrong with defensive, offensive and regen from a single token. But to say ptl BB8 is a waste of points or lacks options in game is blatantly bonkers.

I mean, seriously, PTL and BB8 on Wedge Antilles is one of the most bonkers combos in the game. A focus, a TL, -1 defender agility, and you're shooting at PS9. It's stupid fun and puts out a TON of damage.

However, it's definitely also a skill build, because it relies heavily on knowing when not to use it, or when to do a white maneuver with a PTL. If you try to use it every turn, it will get you killed.

If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.

This is exceedingly poor reasoning.

Is it though? Every turn you don't use the full combo, points are being wasted.

Yes, it is. I mean it's almost comical how poor your reasoning has been in this thread, particularly displayed on the post I just qouted.

Your 5 point torpedo is going to be a single use option only. It's floor is very low and it's ceiling is also limited in regards to it's possible impact.

By contrast, the BB-8/PTL combo is able to be used multiple times. Technically speaking it can be used every turn, though that isn't likely tactically sound. Additionally it's impact has both a higher floor and higher ceiling in regards to it's possible impact.

Simply put you are likely to get more out if a single use of the BB-8/PTL compared to a torpedo, and yet you will still retain the BB-8/PTL combo. Even by those most basic of metric that makes BB-8/PTL more worth it's cost then an equal cost torpedo.

You have to be trolling with this.

we're already proxying IA bb-8 + ptl wedge over here

Ia wedge with Oars no less

dude basically soloed fat han (it was joyous to behold)

I'm just using poe

Poe does shenanigans

i ran that wedge too. i put EU on him as well. too many points for a too squishy ship. but he was a monster. do you miss EU or is bb8 enough to get shots? coming in at 34 instead of 38, he might be worth it.

BB-8 is more than enough, especially since, as we've been trying to explain to nikk, you don't have to use him every turn.

The thing that needs to be understood, though, is that it doesn't make Wedge invincible. He's still relatively squishy, and with the amount of firepower he has no sane opponent will leave him alive for long. You need to provide additional protection (ie. Biggs) and/or provide wingmen who can finish the game up after Wedge goes down.

id say 5 talas and this guy could be a thing. leaves a point for ini bid and you'll just have to fly wedge conservatively in the beginning. i flew him with EU and 5 bandits, because i thought the extra mobility was needed. i beat palpmobile once and lost one against it but ps 2 really isn't viable in the TLT meta, så bumping it to ps 4 with talas could be huge. The list flies a bit life jake and 5 talas but you need to fly wedge a lot differently from jake. if you manage to get him into the mix he can be a beast in the late game oneshotting stuff left and right.

BB-8 is more than enough, especially since, as we've been trying to explain to nikk, you don't have to use him every turn.

The thing that needs to be understood, though, is that it doesn't make Wedge invincible. He's still relatively squishy, and with the amount of firepower he has no sane opponent will leave him alive for long. You need to provide additional protection (ie. Biggs) and/or provide wingmen who can finish the game up after Wedge goes down.

This has been my experience. Wedge draws crazy amounts of hate. It's like paying 9 points to give Biggs PTL, +4 pilot skill, -1 defender agility and increase his effect to range 3. No other ship on the table will be shot at until Wedge is dead.

And, much like a certain hunchbacked political leader we know, you want them to give in to their hate, so that you may exploit it.

The real question should be is Poe and PTL as good as its esteemed by the community, especially considering the awesome flexibility of the talon roll?

The real question should be is Poe and PTL as good as its esteemed by the community, especially considering the awesome flexibility of the talon roll?

The Tallon roll is just as dangerous as any other red maneuver, but especially so for Poe since he relies on having a focus token every turn, and if you have BB-8 on Poe, even if you do a green next turn to clear stress, you still can't use BB-8. But, much like all red maneuvers, they certainly have their application.

I think Poe and PTL is a natural offensive fit for him, regardless of whether or not you're using BB-8 or R5-P9. PTL with BB-8 gives him that sweet stressless action economy, and Target Locking with R5-P9 allows you to save your focus for defense if necessary but more likely to spend on shield regen that round. Poe doesn't like to spend his focus, and by giving him an offensive option with the TL before having to rely on the focus token is always a good thing.

I did get a chance to play R5-P9 Poe today against 2 B-Wings and easily won with full health, because i was getting that TL and keeping the focus for shields in case i lost health. I was stressing myself often, but against B-Wings that wasn't too much of an issue. I think R5-P9 PTL Poe could benefit from a way to peel stress off him to keep him limber and mobile, however. But with BB-8 PTL Poe thats not an issue at all.

No matter how you look at it, PTL is almost auto-add with Poe. It comes down to the astromech. Do you want regen so you never die pretty much, or do you want to be ultra-mobile? Both strategies really, really work, it mostly depends on the kind of ships you're playing against. TLTs and Fatty PWTs would hate R5-P9 AT Poe, and BB-8 wouldnt be as useful against TLTs and fatties since they're not overly concerned with their positioning as long as they're out of range 1, and the T-70's natural boost is already good at closing that gap. However, against, say Interceptors or Advanceds, i definitely see the advantage from using BB-8 to out-maneuver them.

No matter how you look at it, PTL is almost auto-add with Poe. It comes down to the astromech. Do you want regen so you never die pretty much, or do you want to be ultra-mobile? Both strategies really, really work, it mostly depends on the kind of ships you're playing against. TLTs and Fatty PWTs would hate R5-P9 AT Poe, and BB-8 wouldnt be as useful against TLTs and fatties since they're not overly concerned with their positioning as long as they're out of range 1, and the T-70's natural boost is already good at closing that gap. However, against, say Interceptors or Advanceds, i definitely see the advantage from using BB-8 to out-maneuver them.

You've got a lot of great points in there! I think PtL is very strong on Poe in general because of his ability.

That said, I don't think it's anywhere near auto-include. I think BB-8 and R5-P9 work exceptionally well with PtL. And I think a plain R2 Astro could do some solid work with PtL Poe as well (for that squintlike 2-Turn + Boost).

That said, I think there's going to be a very solid group that utilise VI, Lone Wolf, and Predator to great effect. Like you said, it will come down to Astromech choice. I'm excited to try out Lone Wolf, R5-P9, and Autothrusters as a defensive build that doesn't shy away from Tallon Rolls or K-Turns as needed.

I definitely prefer Pred or LW on Poe, coupled with R5-P9. Makes him a little less dodgy and gives him more sustained damage/survivability. Also give you dice modification when you T-Roll (which I have fallen in love with)

I don't think anyone would claim that PtL + BB-8 is the ONLY way to build Poe, or that it is definitively *more* effective than any other build.

The only claim is that it is not definitively worse than any other build.

I don't think anyone would claim that PtL + BB-8 is the ONLY way to build Poe, or that it is definitively *more* effective than any other build.

The only claim is that it is not definitively worse than any other build.

More effective, better, worse, those are words you can't really use with Poe builds. BB-8-PTL isn't BETTER overall than other builds. They do completely different things. Apples and oranges.

PTL-BB-8 is about flexibility, while an R5-P9 build is about durability. It's the difference between trying to be Super Corran and being Jake Farrell if he ever flew an X-Wing.

Yes the question isn't if BB-8 and PTL are good on Poe. They are awesome...

The question is if it is the best possible combo on him. here some of the possible good builds:

Poe Dameron (31)

Push the Limit (3)

BB-8 (2)

Autothrusters (2)

Total: 38

or

Poe Dameron (31)

Lone Wolf (2)

R5-P9 (3)

Autothrusters (2)

Total: 38

Both are very viable. The second one also works well with PtL or Predator. I generally prefer number 2 because unless you start taking focused fire it will keep you alive for a really long time usually.

It also largely depends on what you run beside Poe. If you take Wedge i think he will need BB-8 more than Poe. Luke on the other hand will want Lone Wolf. In other lists you are free to build him like you want.

Lastly the question is against what you will play. I mostly went with R5-P9 at this point because you run into TLT quite often where i need the durability over the extra positioning. I would think it's also the better all-comers build for that reason.

PtL BB-8 Wedge is intense. Once IA comes out I think you're better off with IA than Engine, as he's pretty non-durable. Plus it's less points.

Ok so i got my chance to play PTL/R5-P9 Poe, PTL/BB-8 Wedge, and PTL/Outmaneuver Jake. It just so happened to be against an Interceptor/Phantom list, and a 4 Advanced list(2x Tempest w/ Accuracy correcters and Cluster Missiles, Lt. Colzet w/ accuracy correcter, and Zertik Strom w/ accuracy correcter), so needless to say i got chewed up and spit out without even dragging a single kill with me. This is definitely an instance where positioning is going to benefit Poe more than the ability to regen a shield, since the TIEs regularly flew formation and could focus fire really easily. R5-P9 autothrusters is a very anti-TLT list, whereas PTL/BB-8 is an anti-swarm list where simply not being in their arc to not take damage is more important than being able to compensate for shield loss.

Not feeling the A-Wing, and Wedge died really quickly too. Against a TLT swarm, i would much rather take Luke than Wedge anyways.

So what i'm thinking is 2x Blue Squadron pilot w/ HLC and mercenary co-pilot, and Poe w/ BB-8 and PTL. I flew basically the same thing just with Etahn A'Baht instead and with R2 astro, and dismantled said Advanced list. I feel like Poe would be a better choice, as he is in general a more well-rounded choice. Etahn was mostly good for giving the HLCs a crit in addition to the copilot, whereas Poe will be more offensively and defensively rounded against many different lists.

1 to 3 green banks is a very good dial. Most ships with 3 green straight doesn't have a 1 straight maneuver. Also having 1 banks instead of 2 banks as green works great which sets the dial way ahead of E-wings and even arguably against Z-95 headhunters that have the 2 banks for green instead.

You won't be putting BB-8 on an E-wing when you got T-70 super X-wings instead.

2 Banks green on Corran is great for running away and regenerating shields and better than having a 1 green bank.

So we both agree that BB-8 is a bad card and is better on a Y-wing

Lol yeah R2-D2 regenerats shields but now put it on a T-70 x-wing with autothrusters. +1 hull and better defense against TLT meta. I will argue that 2 agility + AT > 3 agility against TLT.

Best thing about Poe is (as this thread shows) there is no clear cut best build. Build him how you like.

As awesome as Fel is, (by way of comparison) you will never really be surprised by his load out.

Poe...will be a tricky one.

And that's a great thing.

Ok so i got my chance to play PTL/R5-P9 Poe, PTL/BB-8 Wedge, and PTL/Outmaneuver Jake. It just so happened to be against an Interceptor/Phantom list, and a 4 Advanced list(2x Tempest w/ Accuracy correcters and Cluster Missiles, Lt. Colzet w/ accuracy correcter, and Zertik Strom w/ accuracy correcter), so needless to say i got chewed up and spit out without even dragging a single kill with me. This is definitely an instance where positioning is going to benefit Poe more than the ability to regen a shield, since the TIEs regularly flew formation and could focus fire really easily. R5-P9 autothrusters is a very anti-TLT list, whereas PTL/BB-8 is an anti-swarm list where simply not being in their arc to not take damage is more important than being able to compensate for shield loss.

Not feeling the A-Wing, and Wedge died really quickly too. Against a TLT swarm, i would much rather take Luke than Wedge anyways.

So what i'm thinking is 2x Blue Squadron pilot w/ HLC and mercenary co-pilot, and Poe w/ BB-8 and PTL. I flew basically the same thing just with Etahn A'Baht instead and with R2 astro, and dismantled said Advanced list. I feel like Poe would be a better choice, as he is in general a more well-rounded choice. Etahn was mostly good for giving the HLCs a crit in addition to the copilot, whereas Poe will be more offensively and defensively rounded against many different lists.

Err... I think Wedge should have helped you enormously against the aces while both could have arc-dodged against the advanceds. Are you sure you flew this right? You can lose against these lists of course but not killing a single ship? Sounds like it wasn't only bad luck but also maybe not optimal play.

I also think the list could have been a bit better, too. I don't like the A-wing there, either, as it's another relatively expensive, fragile ship that, unlike Wedge, can't even hit all that hard. The list was essentially three ships you don't want the enemy to shoot at, so no matter who took fire, you lose. I would have instead reached for Biggs or a pair of Talas, something that isn't afraid to get in the enemy's face and take some heat away from Wedge and Poe.

Ok so i got my chance to play PTL/R5-P9 Poe, PTL/BB-8 Wedge, and PTL/Outmaneuver Jake. It just so happened to be against an Interceptor/Phantom list, and a 4 Advanced list(2x Tempest w/ Accuracy correcters and Cluster Missiles, Lt. Colzet w/ accuracy correcter, and Zertik Strom w/ accuracy correcter), so needless to say i got chewed up and spit out without even dragging a single kill with me. This is definitely an instance where positioning is going to benefit Poe more than the ability to regen a shield, since the TIEs regularly flew formation and could focus fire really easily. R5-P9 autothrusters is a very anti-TLT list, whereas PTL/BB-8 is an anti-swarm list where simply not being in their arc to not take damage is more important than being able to compensate for shield loss.

Not feeling the A-Wing, and Wedge died really quickly too. Against a TLT swarm, i would much rather take Luke than Wedge anyways.

So what i'm thinking is 2x Blue Squadron pilot w/ HLC and mercenary co-pilot, and Poe w/ BB-8 and PTL. I flew basically the same thing just with Etahn A'Baht instead and with R2 astro, and dismantled said Advanced list. I feel like Poe would be a better choice, as he is in general a more well-rounded choice. Etahn was mostly good for giving the HLCs a crit in addition to the copilot, whereas Poe will be more offensively and defensively rounded against many different lists.

Err... I think Wedge should have helped you enormously against the aces while both could have arc-dodged against the advanceds. Are you sure you flew this right? You can lose against these lists of course but not killing a single ship? Sounds like it wasn't only bad luck but also maybe not optimal play.

Not really. It all came down to basically rolling blanks on my attacks and on my defense. I'm not exaggerating when i say this, but wedge rolled three 2-blank defense rolls in a row. My maneuvering was as good as it could have been, his was just better. He focused his fire so effectively that wedge could never have defended against it in these circumstances. It was over for him so quickly that he never even really got a chance to even utilize his upgrades. It came down to the fact that even with the -1 agility to the enemy i rolled way, WAY too many blanks. A focus token doesnt help you when all your results are blanks.

I also think the list could have been a bit better, too. I don't like the A-wing there, either, as it's another relatively expensive, fragile ship that, unlike Wedge, can't even hit all that hard. The list was essentially three ships you don't want the enemy to shoot at, so no matter who took fire, you lose. I would have instead reached for Biggs or a pair of Talas, something that isn't afraid to get in the enemy's face and take some heat away from Wedge and Poe.

I like using Wedge but opponents want him off the board so quickly i dont even get to feel the satisfaction of using him. People havent learned to fear Poe nearly as much, but theres only so much you can dodge with 2 agility.

The A-Wing lived the longest by far, but did almost no damage to anyone. In one turn the enemy went from shooting at Poe to shooting at Wedge, and 4 TIE Advanceds with AC is very, very scary, and was dead almost immediately. Poe lived much, much longer, but ultimately without the support from Wedge he was eventually bumped off.

I definitely am feeling the 2B Poe list, however. Right now it's set up for BB-8 PTL but you could change that to, say, R5-P9 and Lone Wolf or some other 2 point or less EPT. Lone Wolf would work well with how Poe would function in that squad, as a flanker.