Do you get more from having BB-8 and PtL than you lose by only making green moves.
If yes, it's probably worth it, as long as you don't pay too much in squad points.
If no, then it's probably not worth it.
The other thing to consider, are you only ever going to do green moves? I'd argue not, and I'd argue that most of the times you do a green move, you were probably going to do a green move anyway BB-8 or otherwise, so it's not really restrictive at all.
why would you only make green moves rather than the moves that the current situation calls for?
bb-8 is incredibly powerful and you should be engineering turns to set up as many greens as possible, but if you force yourself to do nothing but greens you're only shooting yourself in the foot (good thing bb-8 has no legs, then)
Native boost from a barrel roll/ptl with advanced sensors timing makes the greens plenty sufficient.
I think R5-P9 is such a strong match for Poe that while BB-8 is decent on him, it's sub-optimal in comparison.
BB-8 would be better on Wedge.
In a list with both Poe and Wedge I agree.
With Poe alone, I think it's 50/50 and depends on the rest of the list as well as the intent for Poe. Wedge is at a 2-point deficit compared to Poe for equal value due to the T-70's native boost (and that's before counting the extra shield). His ability and PS probably make it a wash.
why would you only make green moves rather than the moves that the current situation calls for?
bb-8 is incredibly powerful and you should be engineering turns to set up as many greens as possible, but if you force yourself to do nothing but greens you're only shooting yourself in the foot (good thing bb-8 has no legs, then)
Do you get more from having BB-8 and PtL than you lose by only making green moves.
If yes, it's probably worth it, as long as you don't pay too much in squad points.
If no, then it's probably not worth it.
The other thing to consider, are you only ever going to do green moves? I'd argue not, and I'd argue that most of the times you do a green move, you were probably going to do a green move anyway BB-8 or otherwise, so it's not really restrictive at all.
See I don't know about these! That 3-Straight green is phenomenal in conjunction with the 1-Banks. Yes there are turns you'll want to 3-Turn or Tallon Roll, but not Pushing or skipping out on a Focus makes Poe much less effective. On top of that, I'm feeling much more like the original Phantom where I've already got a manoeuvre in mind (except now it's a 1-Bank instead of a 1-Turn) and then I either execute my original plan and outflank someone, or outright disengage and we skip shooting altogether. Even if you aren't sure quite what you want to do, I've had more success by just dialling in a 1- or 2-Straight and keeping the BBroll an option.
The main issue with this Poe build is that you'll almost never want to Push after you move because then you cut out BB-8 as an option altogether. I made that mistake once and don't really want to do it again! Took three turns before I could use BB-8 again.
Native boost from a barrel roll/ptl with advanced sensors timing makes the greens plenty sufficient.
^exactly this
BB-8 isn't necessarily about arc-dodging, although it certainly can do that very effectively. BB-8 is about flexibility. BB-8 is about saying "Oh, you expected me to end up there? Well now i'm over here. You can't shoot me now."I agree. I want to get some games in with both, but having the ability to regen shields on a fast ship with boost is going to be a lot more helpful than being able arc-dodge a bit better. If BB-8 didn't take up that astro slot, he'd be godly (like PtL + R2D2 + AdvS Corran) . . . but as it is, he isn't quite as good as R5-P9 or R2-D2.
Isn't that exactly what arc dodging is?
Pretty much! Also: silly Samwise, spaceships aren't for tricksy hobbitses.
We can say that for nearly every ship with certain upgrades. The dial could be better? yeah, no kidding.
Why do we need an EXTREMELY powerful ship build, when just plain ol' powerful is just fine?
BB8/PTL Poe lacks flexibility, which is why I think I have had an easy time beating him and not liked flying him.
Imagine how much less powerful the old phantom would have been if it's maneuver dial looked like the green maneuvers on Poe's dial. Poe's completely cut-off from accessing his white maneuvers unless he wants to either give up PTL for a turn or give up BB8 for 2 turns, and then he will have to give up PTL later to regain access to BB8. This Poe is basically forced to fly in slow circles around the battlefield, which makes it so easy to outmaneuver him.
I'm glad I finally got my R5-P9 card.
BB8/PTL Poe lacks flexibility, which is why I think I have had an easy time beating him and not liked flying him.
Imagine how much less powerful the old phantom would have been if it's maneuver dial looked like the green maneuvers on Poe's dial. Poe's completely cut-off from accessing his white maneuvers unless he wants to either give up PTL for a turn or give up BB8 for 2 turns, and then he will have to give up PTL later to regain access to BB8. This Poe is basically forced to fly in slow circles around the battlefield, which makes it so easy to outmaneuver him.
I'm glad I finally got my R5-P9 card.
I respectfully disagree. His flexibility is what makes him quite useful, although he flies very differently to everything else. I'm not sure why you mention "slow circles" when he can essentially pull a 2-Turn every round between a 1-Bank and an angled Boost. Being required to use the Barrel Roll can sometimes be inconvenient, but in my experience only when I put him where he didn't belong because I wasn't anticipating the unique PtL/BB-8 style (usually next to a rock).
Nothing against the R5-P9 build, regeneration is always solid.
Probably because I'm a bad flier, but the number of times I've flown face-first millimeters from an asteroid to get a potential finishing shot on my opponent, then KNOWING I'm going to fly through it next round and be penalized with a crit roll is too high to count. Having BB-8 and barrel rolling out of the way, focus/boosting, then clearing stress with my green move gives me the feel goods inside.
R5P9 was my first instinct but the interceptor pilot in me soon saw the shenanigans that BB8 opens up..
That's my kind of flexibility. You only lose as much of your dial as you choose to. Can really catch people off guard by not Pushing or keeping your stress for a turn
BB8/PTL Poe lacks flexibility, which is why I think I have had an easy time beating him and not liked flying him.
...
I'm glad I finally got my R5-P9 card.
the first statement is an oxymoron. BB-8 is the very epitome of flexibility, giving you two starting locations and the option to slow roll (seriously, you barely move with a back-roll and one-bank) + either full mods or combos with the T-70s innate boost to far exceed any supposition that the bb-8 is somehow limited by the T-70's dial
Bb-8 functions as
1.) potential full modifiers (ptl + focus, normal action TL = all mods; no stress)
2.) obstacle avoidance
3.) arc-dodger (especially with native boost, before or after the maneuver)
4.) arc-dodging via intentional blocking (don't try this at home, soonts!)
and all this without stress to keep your dial wide open on every turn
if he seems restrictive relative to pre-errata phantom, that's only because pre-errata phantom was deemed broken
and the last sentence is just irony 
If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.
you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe because it's garbage
that's one misfire analogy, like telling someone to never eat hamburgers just because mcdonalds exists
I agree. I want to get some games in with both, but having the ability to regen shields on a fast ship with boost is going to be a lot more helpful than being able arc-dodge a bit better. If BB-8 didn't take up that astro slot, he'd be godly (like PtL + R2D2 + AdvS Corran) . . . but as it is, he isn't quite as good as R5-P9 or R2-D2.
that depends on who we're talking about
personal experience says Poe isn't actually that durable, and r5-p9 poe in particular is just a block away from death
the T-70 can't tank face like the E-wing (extra agility + evade; bb-8's utility already approximated by sensors) and that makes shield regen far less useful
unless, of course, you wish to make swarms/tlts cry
This is true. All it takes is Poe to bump a ship and now he's stuck without a focus token. A blocked Poe is a dead Poe.
Much less than a blocked Soontir... he still has 3hull and 3 shield and possibly integrated astromech....
To be fair I'd absolutely put Plasma Torps on PtL/BB-8 Poe simply because I could take the TL and modify the attack in one round, without ending stressed. Great at Range 3 against a B-Wing, YV-666, Shuttle...
If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.
If anything, BB8 is anti-blocking insurance. If you have enough room to barrel roll, then you can also get that focus token. The only times you'll be without one are when you have to do a red maneuver, or when you get blocked in such a way that you couldn't do a barrel roll either.
By you're own logic, if you would put a 3-point EPT on Poe, then why wouldn't you also consider spending an extra two points to give him a milder version of Advanced Sensors?
Is 5 points worth it if you can get only 1 or 2 rounds of use out of it?
Depends on what you can do on those 1 or 2 rounds. Those rounds could easily be the difference between 1st and last place.
IMO you can't base the value of an upgrade just on how often you'll use it, but how much impact it will have when you do use it.
That's why Ord is almost always a bad choice, because even though it can in theory have a huge impact it's very hit and miss.
5 points for BB-8 and PtL is a lot, but seeing how you can make it pay off big it's IMO worth the points. The difference is, I have control over when I use it, which isn't true of Ord. Because frankly if you're getting blocked when you have a PS8+ ship with barrel roll, and boost you're doing something wrong.
I agree with Adrenaline Rush and R5-P9 on Poe...my favorite stuff on him so far...unless I want DTF to keep Biggs alive for an extra turn (which works nicely against certain lists). BB-8 and PTL is really for Wedge or other X-Wing aces for me. I think it'll get even better once IA comes out. Yes it is limited and you will not use it every turn (especially if you start in a Biggs formation), but when you do it is powerful. It becomes so much better once Biggs goes down and you break formation to start avoiding arcs.
If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.
Really poor analogy as was pointed out.
BB-8 alone at 2 points is better than 6 (yes, not a typo) points of torpedoes...so there ya go. And the torp is a single use, you can use BB-8/PtL every turn potentially...
Since when is PtL bad? I really don't understand the argument you are making.
Now I am beginning to see why you have a hard time understanding why it is good. I am wondering if you have ever actually flown it? No offense intended, but seriously?
The ability to place a ship in the middle of the map and shuffle him over to either corner in the first few turns alone is worth the cost... the fact that the ability get's you around blocks, asteroids, and can potentially result in pounding enemy arc-dodgers or allow you to arc-dodge yourself while still putting out great damage is just a TON of icing on the cake.
Can't PTL, but I'm still itching to try BB-8 on "Blue Ace". Barrel roll, move, then boost with a hard turn!
I agree with Adrenaline Rush and R5-P9 on Poe...my favorite stuff on him so far...unless I want DTF to keep Biggs alive for an extra turn (which works nicely against certain lists). BB-8 and PTL is really for Wedge or other X-Wing aces for me. I think it'll get even better once IA comes out. Yes it is limited and you will not use it every turn (especially if you start in a Biggs formation), but when you do it is powerful. It becomes so much better once Biggs goes down and you break formation to start avoiding arcs.
Personally, I like not flying in formation to begin with and swooping in for mid-game saves with Biggs.
So far, my favorite Poe build has used R5-P9, VI and Autothrusters. I usually play him as a flanker in this role, while Wedge and a third ship (either Porkins or Biggs, still experimenting with this part) serve as my primary attackers.
VI Poe is a deadly, deadly ship if allowed to reach endgame.
If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.
This is exceedingly poor reasoning.
If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.
This is exceedingly poor reasoning.
Is it though? Every turn you don't use the full combo, points are being wasted.
If you wouldn't put a 5 point torpedo on Poe, then the combo of BB-8 and PTL is also too expensive for the amount of turns you can't use it, be it from strong blocking, red maneuvers or inability to barrel roll.
This is exceedingly poor reasoning.
Is it though? Every turn you don't use the full combo, points are being wasted.
Yes, it is. That's like saying every time Corran doesn't gain a shield from R2-D2 you are wasting points....