So the early votes are in, and one combo has emerged from the new core set with a lot of buzz. Push the Limit and BB-8, on the newest top dog in the x-wing metagame, Poe Dameron.

And here is why it's not a good combo.

Let's break it down piece by piece. First, push the limit. Viewed as one of the stronger cards in the game, the ability to take a second action at the cost of a stress is not to be looked down upon. Many of the games top pilots rely on it for increased action efficiency, leading to stronger attacks and better defense. However, the lynchpin of any push the limit user it's the strength of its dial, specifically the green maneuvers. The more green maneuvers you have, the more versatility you'll have in selecting a maneuver to clear the stress acquired from push the limit.

The second part, BB-8. Also tied to a ships green maneuvers, BB-8 allows a ship to barrel roll prior to completing any chosen green maneuver. This allows for an exceptional level of maneuverability, similar to advanced sensors on a b-wing. Paired with push the limit, you can use trigger your second action off the free barrel roll, acquiring stress before you execute your green maneuver, therefore clearing the stress and having the option to take a third, consequence free action.

The problem, and the final piece,is the t-70 doesn't have the green maneuvers to to make full use of this combo.

The T-70 only has one extra green maneuver that the T-65 (traditionally not the best PTL carrier) doesn't, the 3 straight. So right off the bat, if you wish to pull off the full combo, you can only go at medium speed in a straight line, or very slowly at 45 degree angles. This is where it fails compared to the b-wing/adv sensors combo, as it can be used nearly every turn, before any maneuver (stress abiding). The worst part, is if you decide (or are blocked) to not use the full combo, and instead only use push the limit, you have eliminated the use of BB-8 for the following turn as well, as BB-8 doesn't trigger if you have a stress token. The build is also susceptible to popular stress inflicting mechanics as well, and can further shut everyone's new favorite droid down.

Yes, the combo is a powerful one, however, it requires a dial that can best take advantage of it, where the new x-wing isn't the best candidate for the job. Save your EPT spot for other proven favorites, or stretch out and reach for a card you wouldn't normally use. Adrenaline rush is powerful on those talon rolls, and predator can ensure your focus token sticks around long enough to activate R5-P9.

Thoughts?

What you say is true ... from a certain point of view.

The green one banks on the T-70 are very powerful when used with a barrel roll and PTL for repositioning, and combined with Boost can result in significant agility. It's near Soontir-level of maneuverability and arc dodging.

Fly it a few times. I have, and I like it for an offensive build. R5-P9 is great for a defensive build, too -- isn't it great to have good choices?

I think R5-P9 is such a strong match for Poe that while BB-8 is decent on him, it's sub-optimal in comparison.

BB-8 would be better on Wedge.

1 to 3 green banks is a very good dial. Most ships with 3 green straight doesn't have a 1 straight maneuver. Also having 1 banks instead of 2 banks as green works great which sets the dial way ahead of E-wings and even arguably against Z-95 headhunters that have the 2 banks for green instead.

You won't be putting BB-8 on an E-wing when you got T-70 super X-wings instead.

1 to 3 green banks is a very good dial. Most ships with 3 green straight doesn't have a 1 straight maneuver. Also having 1 banks instead of 2 banks as green works great which sets the dial way ahead of E-wings and even arguably against Z-95 headhunters that have the 2 banks for green instead.

You won't be putting BB-8 on an E-wing when you got T-70 super X-wings instead.

2 Banks green on Corran is great for running away and regenerating shields and better than having a 1 green bank.

Totally Disagree. You don't need to have that many decent greens for this to be extremely powerful. I rarely use the 3 straight and very rarely have an issue using BB-8/PtL on either X-Wing. The X-Wing still jousts well and its really scary when a ship can deny shots on it while also pounding you with 3-4 attack dice.

The parts that make it powerful is that you never really suffer the stress and basically get 3 actions. I think the hardest part is making sure you can still roll each turn, but it's very similar to making moves to leave Decloaks open, so anyone who has played much with the Phantom shouldn't have too much trouble.

I do agree with a few other posters that it seems even better on Wedge, especially if you add EU, despite the slightly lesser dial. I think a big part of that is he is definitely a huge hammer when he has F+TL, especially at R1, so people will try to avoid him as much as possible. But that is difficult when he can consistently Roll/Boost to catch up and he doesn't mind taking R3 shots much.

I'm not saying the combo will win Worlds or anything, but it definitely is fun to play and difficult to play against.

I tried it in a tournament last weekend and had pretty miserable results. Granted, I had little practice, and I'm not generally an arc-dodger type of player. I really found that the combo made me want to push in to Range 1 a lot, which negated the Autothrusters I had on Poe.

One thing that stands out is that the combo requires you to think a couple turns in advance, planning ahead more than is required with other pilots and ship types I do well with.

I don't know if I agree that the dial is a major reason the combo isn't all it's cracked up to be. It seems more that you have to have specific expectations for what you plan to do with it. It's not something you want to use all the time. I was probably overly enamoured of the combo, and I let it drag me around like a cart before the horse, costing me more opportunities than I was gaining in versatility.

Thoughts?

It all depends on what build your going against ( though obviously you might not know)....going against PWT or TLTs I would go with r5-p9.....going against extremely mobile ships like interceptors? I would then go with bb-8.

It's a ton of fun to play, but from my experience not overpowered, I prefer it on Wedge so I'm going last. The weakness is that you're left with no way to bug out. If your opponent predicts you, you're screwed. You can hope to firepower your way out but the X isn't quite up to that task.

I really wish DR4CO would stop making awesome posts about this combo because I don't have the new Core Set yet but he really makes me want to play it on Wedge!

Poe has his limitations but my experience with him puts PtL/BB-8 almost up with prenerf Phantom position adjustment. On the fly.

Autothrusters? Waste. Weapons Guidance? Extravagant. Torps? Maybe. Being able to pick a Barrel Roll side and direction, then PtL Boost in any of three directions? At PS8? Obscenely powerful against anything that moves earlier. Combine with the option to Boost post-manoeuvre and you have a staggering number of landing positions to pick from the moment you flip your dial. That's the strength here, and any damage Poe does is basically irrefutable because it's so hard to nail him down like this. You don't want to send him unescorted against a heavy PWT or several TLTs, but point-for-point I'll take his six HP and dial-independent manoeuvrability over Fel any day. Especially while PS is averaging out right now.

yeah no

bb-8 + PTL is stupidly good and the rather average amount of greens on either X really aren't a deterrent at all

even excusing its amazing utility bypassing obstacles/blocking and for arc-dodging, it gives you fully modified attacks with no stress

bb-8 + ptl single handedly make Wedge POTENTIALLY VIABLE

if that's not some glowing ******* praise, then I don't know what is

use it, love it; thank FFG for it

it's potent and some of the most fun you can have in this game (esp if you like sensor shenanigans )

Thoughts?

It's not because it doesn't work for you that it's bad.

For me, the combo is great.

I really wish DR4CO would stop making awesome posts about this combo because I don't have the new Core Set yet but he really makes me want to play it on Wedge!

Service I provide.

we're already proxying IA bb-8 + ptl wedge over here

Ia wedge with Oars no less

dude basically soloed fat han (it was joyous to behold)

I'm just using poe

Poe does shenanigans

I agree. I want to get some games in with both, but having the ability to regen shields on a fast ship with boost is going to be a lot more helpful than being able arc-dodge a bit better. If BB-8 didn't take up that astro slot, he'd be godly (like PtL + R2D2 + AdvS Corran) . . . but as it is, he isn't quite as good as R5-P9 or R2-D2.

I agree. I want to get some games in with both, but having the ability to regen shields on a fast ship with boost is going to be a lot more helpful than being able arc-dodge a bit better. If BB-8 didn't take up that astro slot, he'd be godly (like PtL + R2D2 + AdvS Corran) . . . but as it is, he isn't quite as good as R5-P9 or R2-D2.

that depends on who we're talking about

personal experience says Poe isn't actually that durable, and r5-p9 poe in particular is just a block away from death

the T-70 can't tank face like the E-wing (extra agility + evade; bb-8's utility already approximated by sensors) and that makes shield regen far less useful

unless, of course, you wish to make swarms/tlts cry

Boost off ofBB8 followed by 3 straight is crazy variant.

1bank + 1 boost left is a lot like a three turn, with the option for focus + tl and no stress. There's more than enough green.

The Ewing likes it too, but the y wing is the questionable one.

I agree. I want to get some games in with both, but having the ability to regen shields on a fast ship with boost is going to be a lot more helpful than being able arc-dodge a bit better. If BB-8 didn't take up that astro slot, he'd be godly (like PtL + R2D2 + AdvS Corran) . . . but as it is, he isn't quite as good as R5-P9 or R2-D2.

BB-8 isn't necessarily about arc-dodging, although it certainly can do that very effectively. BB-8 is about flexibility. BB-8 is about saying "Oh, you expected me to end up there? Well now i'm over here. You can't shoot me now." BB-8 is about being unpredictable. BB-8 and PTL is about action economy. BB-8 and PTL is about the ability to routinely decide how badly you want to kill your opponent, from what position and range you want, without limitation.

If you sit down with a T-70 dial, and physically map out where, in a single turn, a PTL BB-8 T-70 can go, you'll understand.

Not understanding the usefulness of BB-8 is underestimating what the element of surprise can do for you. I would much rather catch my enemy from the side at range 1 with a focus and a target lock because a barrel rolled out of their arc and moved right up next to them, than i would like to boost into their arc at range 1 while focused and run the risk of taking hull damage that turn, which i can't recuperate with R5-P9.

personal experience says Poe isn't actually that durable, and r5-p9 poe in particular is just a block away from death

the T-70 can't tank face like the E-wing (extra agility + evade; bb-8's utility already approximated by sensors) and that makes shield regen far less useful

That's why I prefer to fly R5-Poe9 with someone more aggressive like Farlander or (conveniently enough) BB-8 Wedge. The more aggressive ace draws the early hate while it and Poe wreck face, so that by the time the enemy turns to Poe he won't have enough firepower left to beat him.

If I was using Poe as the lone ace in a list, though, BB-8 would probably be the choice.

I agree. I want to get some games in with both, but having the ability to regen shields on a fast ship with boost is going to be a lot more helpful than being able arc-dodge a bit better. If BB-8 didn't take up that astro slot, he'd be godly (like PtL + R2D2 + AdvS Corran) . . . but as it is, he isn't quite as good as R5-P9 or R2-D2.

BB-8 isn't necessarily about arc-dodging, although it certainly can do that very effectively. BB-8 is about flexibility. BB-8 is about saying "Oh, you expected me to end up there? Well now i'm over here. You can't shoot me now."

Isn't that exactly what arc dodging is?

I agree. I want to get some games in with both, but having the ability to regen shields on a fast ship with boost is going to be a lot more helpful than being able arc-dodge a bit better. If BB-8 didn't take up that astro slot, he'd be godly (like PtL + R2D2 + AdvS Corran) . . . but as it is, he isn't quite as good as R5-P9 or R2-D2.

that depends on who we're talking about

personal experience says Poe isn't actually that durable, and r5-p9 poe in particular is just a block away from death

the T-70 can't tank face like the E-wing (extra agility + evade; bb-8's utility already approximated by sensors) and that makes shield regen far less useful

unless, of course, you wish to make swarms/tlts cry

This is true. All it takes is Poe to bump a ship and now he's stuck without a focus token. A blocked Poe is a dead Poe.

I agree. I want to get some games in with both, but having the ability to regen shields on a fast ship with boost is going to be a lot more helpful than being able arc-dodge a bit better. If BB-8 didn't take up that astro slot, he'd be godly (like PtL + R2D2 + AdvS Corran) . . . but as it is, he isn't quite as good as R5-P9 or R2-D2.

BB-8 isn't necessarily about arc-dodging, although it certainly can do that very effectively. BB-8 is about flexibility. BB-8 is about saying "Oh, you expected me to end up there? Well now i'm over here. You can't shoot me now."

Isn't that exactly what arc dodging is?

Well the extra bit i forgot to add was "Oh, you expected me to be there, and moved here so that i couldn't shoot you? Well now i can shoot you anyways with fully modified dice." If anything, it's an arc-dodger counter.

I agree. I want to get some games in with both, but having the ability to regen shields on a fast ship with boost is going to be a lot more helpful than being able arc-dodge a bit better. If BB-8 didn't take up that astro slot, he'd be godly (like PtL + R2D2 + AdvS Corran) . . . but as it is, he isn't quite as good as R5-P9 or R2-D2.

BB-8 isn't necessarily about arc-dodging, although it certainly can do that very effectively. BB-8 is about flexibility. BB-8 is about saying "Oh, you expected me to end up there? Well now i'm over here. You can't shoot me now."

Isn't that exactly what arc dodging is?

arc-dodging tends to not involve slamming into your enemy to deny shots

well, it can, but BB-8 gives you sensor levels of "don't give a ****" when it comes to losing actions

poe in a tough spot? sometimes all you need to do is roll into a focus and then just bump to take a dangerous range 1 shot out of the equation