Is there any known reason why there aren't digital downloads for the rulebooks of the Star wars RPG's like FFG's others? Digital versions are much more appealing to me for both easier accessibility and lower cost.

Their star wars licence prevent them to sold PDF version of their books.

PDFs are considered "Digital Games" under the SW license systems, not "Table Top Games" so FFG would need both licenses to be able to sell them as PDF and printed. Considering the significant costs of SW licenses they have not done this.

It is a hold over from the WEG days. When pdfs did not exist. Sadly no one is updating the license language. FFG likely would love to.

It's Lucas' fault, from what I have understood; sometime in the late 90s some lawyers decided that pdf books mean digital games, which in turn means video games. Even WotC suffered the same as FFG in the pdf issue.

Let's hope that Disney revises that.

This question is a perennial around here --actually around any place that discusses SW RPGs. I'm wondering why it isn't part of some larger FAQ. Right under that should be the question, "Why don't they just re-negotiate that part?"

Since it's usually the question that comes next (whether by the original user, or another who has a similar question), I hope you don't mind if I get ahead of it on this one. As much as it sounds like it would be an easy thing to re-negotiate, contract law when it comes to the proprietary rights of individual companies is amazingly difficult. Any stand-alone digital product of a Star Wars game (which a PDF book of an RPG qualifies), is the exclusive rights of Lucas Arts. Granted, Lucas Arts might not be anything more than a cardboard cutout of what it used to be (farming out projects, rather than running their own), but they still exist, and those contracts are still valid.

So, there is no way to legally produce a game book pdf. Now, you can release digital supplements. Errata, character sheets, follow-up adventures and other PDFs are not considered stand alone products.

Edit:

It's Lucas' fault, from what I have understood; sometime in the late 90s some lawyers decided that pdf books mean digital games, which in turn means video games. Even WotC suffered the same as FFG in the pdf issue.

Let's hope that Disney revises that.

Though, in the end, the result is kind of the same. It's not likely they'll revise the contracts. Both copyright law and business law exist to transcend the boundaries of common sense.

It's Lucas' fault, from what I have understood; sometime in the late 90s some lawyers decided that pdf books mean digital games, which in turn means video games . Even WotC suffered the same as FFG in the pdf issue.

Let's hope that Disney revises that.

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Guessing the lawyer was some old guy who barely ever used a computer and had no idea what a pdf was.

It's Lucas' fault, from what I have understood; sometime in the late 90s some lawyers decided that pdf books mean digital games, which in turn means video games . Even WotC suffered the same as FFG in the pdf issue.

Let's hope that Disney revises that.

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Guessing the lawyer was some old guy who barely ever used a computer and had no idea what a pdf was.

There have been other threads that have given analogies and examples of how difficult it is to manage such small terms in contracts. I think one user had described an 8-month battle and a major deal for their company to use plastic shipping palates instead of wood. I should find that thread again. It was a good one.

Anyway that's just business law for you.

Is there any known reason why there aren't digital downloads for the rulebooks of the Star wars RPG's like FFG's others?

Yes. Because Fantasy Flight Games hates you.

Actually, there's a full line of PDFs for all the released books. It's just that those of us who know about them are keeping it a secret from everyone else.

When attempting to assign blame (which is really misplaced) it's important to remember that our technology is moving extremely fast. A lot faster than the contracts that govern IP's can update too. All things consider it may be more expensive to change the original contract than it is to just deal with the fact that the RPG (and lets be honest it's not like it's the biggest part of the Star Wars market) isn't going to sell pdfs.

There have been superhero RPGs and there were pdf of the rulebooks, for example Green Ronnin's DC Adventures for their M&M 3E.

Sure it's not exactly the same situation but I think that it's close.

And there is another example which is "closer to home" the W40K IP is an old one which does mainly other things (than RPGs), mainly wargaming miniatures and novels but the RPG does have pdf.

There have been superhero RPGs and there were pdf of the rulebooks, for example Green Ronnin's DC Adventures for their M&M 3E.

Sure it's not exactly the same situation but I think that it's close.

And there is another example which is "closer to home" the W40K IP is an old one which does mainly other things (than RPGs), mainly wargaming miniatures and novels but the RPG does have pdf.

Those are all moot. Those are different IP's operating under different contracts. There is no reason to compare them.

But if we must compare things ..... this is less like M&M and their contract with DC or W40K and their contract with FFG and more akin to Marvel and their contracts for Spiderman or the X Men. Sure Marvel comics owns the rights to Spiderman and X Men, but they don't own the film rights. Thus they can't use Spiderman or X Men characters with out having to pay Sony and Fox. Disney/Marvel is paying for the use of Spiderman in upcoming films. The same is true here, for FFG to make pdf's they'd have to pay someone else for the rights to use it.

I'm imagining that since they aren't producing pdf's that the cost to do it is higher than what they want to pay.

And because it bears repeating ..... a separate company owns the rights to do pdf's. FFG did not gain access to those rights when they made the rpg contract. To gain those rights they would have to negotiate and pay for a separate contract.

There have been superhero RPGs and there were pdf of the rulebooks, for example Green Ronnin's DC Adventures for their M&M 3E.

Sure it's not exactly the same situation but I think that it's close.

And there is another example which is "closer to home" the W40K IP is an old one which does mainly other things (than RPGs), mainly wargaming miniatures and novels but the RPG does have pdf.

Close only counts in tauntaun shoes and thermal detonators.

The issue is specific to the license agreements between Lucasfilm and FFG, and between Lucasfilm and EA. They were written when Bail Organa was still practicing law in Los Angeles and PDFs (not to mention the internet) didn't even exist. So you end up with artifacts like a PDF of a game book being classified as an "electronic game" because it's all the components needed to play a game, in an electronic format...

You know, it would probably only take somebody at EA who's not a total jackwagon to look at that clause and be like: "You know, we don't really benefit from that and it doesn't apply to our company. Why don't we renegotiate...?"

You know, it would probably only take somebody at EA who's not a total jackwagon to look at that clause and be like: "You know, we don't really benefit from that and it doesn't apply to our company. Why don't we renegotiate...?"

"EA" and "not a total jackwagon" are pretty much mutually exclusive conditions. More likely "You know, we don't really benefit from that and it doesn't apply to our company. Why don't we renegotiate so FFG has to pay us a cut... like say 60% right off the top, and take over our janitorial contract? That Kat person can operate a floor buffer right"

Precisely. Much to everybody's misfortune.

You know, it would probably only take somebody at EA who's not a total jackwagon to look at that clause and be like: "You know, we don't really benefit from that and it doesn't apply to our company. Why don't we renegotiate...?"

It's not really an issue of people at EA being jackwagons. Renegotiating a contract cost money. EA is a business therefore they are going to behave in a fashion that makes them money. Currently it is still in their best interest to hold onto those rights until such time as someone makes a good offer for them. Assuming EA is a jackwagon assumes ill intent on the part of the company, which is likely not the case.

I may not like the situation but a contract is a contract. They have every right to hold onto it. EA isn't a bad guy because they don't want to change the contract for free. It's just business. It sucks but that's business.

I don't think EA cares. The only entity that can really change the contract is Disney. And Disney has no reason to. And until they do they are not going to spend the money on lawyers to refine the current contracts. There is also the likely issue that the contract with EA and the Contract with FFG don't come up at the same time. so it is even harder to change the contract.

So in the end I really see no point in blaming anyone or trying to make EA out to be some kind of bad guy. If selling pdfs was viewed as profitable then it would happen. But on a certain level Disney, EA, and even FFG must all think that overall the amount of money they would make from selling pdfs will not counter balance the money it would take to change the current set of contracts. So they remain the same. Clearly if selling pdfs were viewed as profitable it would happen. FFG, EA, and Disney would all find a way to make it happen if they honestly felt it was a worthwhile venture.

Sure it sucks for us the fans but I don't expect a business to act in a way that isn't ultimately serving their bottom line.

Like Kael said, the issue isn't a matter of just one person refraining from idiocy for a moment. There are boundaries within these licensing agreements. Anyone at EA, FFG, or any other party producing licensed products would be a fool to not follow the letter of the law when it comes to protecting valuable contracts.

What you're asking of them is not to "stop being an idiot," but to start from scratch when defining the proprietary rights of two companies who happen to be owned by a larger parent company. It's not a matter of just sticking a clause in that says, "Oh, btw, PDFs don't count, lol." It's a long drawn out process of looking at today's technology and trying to accurately predict into the future of that rapidly changing technology in such a way that is mutually beneficial. That takes time and money to pay legal aids and lawyers to come together to re-draft an agreement.

That's expensive.

The expense compared to the potential profits of the PDFs of a niche interest within a niche industry probably provides them little incentive to renegotiate that deal just for such a small group of us who play a Star Wars RPG.

Also worth mentioning there may actually be internal pushback. By not releasing official PDFs the pirates are required to actually scan and process the books themselves. Work is still work, so by keeping the books in hardcopy the bootlegs PDFs at least take time to start showing up, time that can be spent selling the hardcopies....

It's sort of like DRM, it doesn't stop the pirates, but it at least allows a window shortly following release where the easiest, safest way to get the product is to just buy it at full retail... Since initial sales figures are kinda big deal in determining total profits, you want as many people buying up front as possible....

On top of this, it

Like Kael said, the issue isn't a matter of just one person refraining from idiocy for a moment. There are boundaries within these licensing agreements. Anyone at EA, FFG, or any other party producing licensed products would be a fool to not follow the letter of the law when it comes to protecting valuable contracts.

What you're asking of them is not to "stop being an idiot," but to start from scratch when defining the proprietary rights of two companies who happen to be owned by a larger parent company. It's not a matter of just sticking a clause in that says, "Oh, btw, PDFs don't count, lol." It's a long drawn out process of looking at today's technology and trying to accurately predict into the future of that rapidly changing technology in such a way that is mutually beneficial. That takes time and money to pay legal aids and lawyers to come together to re-draft an agreement.

That's expensive.

The expense compared to the potential profits of the PDFs of a niche interest within a niche industry probably provides them little incentive to renegotiate that deal just for such a small group of us who play a Star Wars RPG.

As noted here, this requires reworking two licences, It is not as simple as just saying to Company A: Hey we are going to make this change to your licence so that Company B can do something that totally makes sense. Changing the licence means entering renegotiation of the terms of the licence which is an extended process, costly and generally unpleasant for both sides. If Disney suddenly amends the FFG licence to allow PDF rulebooks but EA has an exclusive licence that would cover those then Disney is now in violation of their licence with EA and there are large financial penalties involved with that, not to mention the likely royalties and other benefits that could be lost should EA decide not to continue working with a partner that breaches contracts.

And, while it may seem on the surface like EA just needs to 'not be a ******' in reality it is not so simple from a corporate stand point. EA holds the rights to all digital games. While they are not going to make digital RPG rulebooks and the PDF books put out by FFG doesn't compete with their market or business, as a corporate entity they would be foolish not to defend their licences and rights. And as a company, FFG would be foolish to try to 'slide by'. These licences are not cheap to obtain and if they let one thing slip there will be a growing number instances of others trying to slip by in a grey area and it becomes increasingly more difficult and costly to defend that licence. As such, they simply take a very hard and firm stance on those boundaries even when it may not fully make sense because then they are clear and defined with no little wiggle room grey area to be concerned about.

Also worth mentioning there may actually be internal pushback. By not releasing official PDFs the pirates are required to actually scan and process the books themselves. Work is still work, so by keeping the books in hardcopy the bootlegs PDFs at least take time to start showing up, time that can be spent selling the hardcopies....

It's sort of like DRM, it doesn't stop the pirates, but it at least allows a window shortly following release where the easiest, safest way to get the product is to just buy it at full retail... Since initial sales figures are kinda big deal in determining total profits, you want as many people buying up front as possible....

I believe this is the precise reason that WotC has stated for pulling digital PDFs for the D&D system. I'm not sure if they've changed this policy but I do remember several years ago when they just suddenly stopped all digital rulebooks.

Sigh Piracy has been long proven to have almost zero impact on sales in a negative manner. Its pretty much been proven to have a postive impact on sales. There are a chunk of people who use it to try before they buy, there are a chunk of people who do it due to an inability to get the product and there are a chunk of people who wouldn't buy it to begin with.