Captain Harlock said:

I reintroduced Malal to a bunch of players during the Storm of Chaos summer campaign. I played a Beastmen army with the 'Mark of Malal' also known as the 'Mark of Opposition.' Basically, the characters and units took the opposite mark of whatever god they were opposing at the time. In game terms, I had 4 army lists, one for a beastman army of each Chaos God and played the appropriate one.

And let's not forget the Sons of Malice Chaos Marines in 40k. They may not say specifically that they are marines of Malal, but they wear the black & white armour and bear his skull emblem on their shoulder pads!

As for WFRP, I always use the older stuff mixed in with the newer stuff. Same with DH and RT, which I use my old WH40k Rogue Trader book and the Realms of Chaos books as background for. I may like the newer games, but it is the art and atmosphere of the older books that always have and always will inform my vision of the Warhammer Universe...

I thought on it last night and here is my take on a Squat for RT...

HOME WORLD OPTIONS: SQUAT

You may take the Squat Home World as an option. It replaces the Death World option on the Origin Path Chart.

The character represents a survivor who escaped from the Squat Homeworlds, a youngling born to said survivors, or a guild brother from one of the small number of Squat colonies scattered throughout the Imperium.

Characteristic Modifiers: +10 WS, +10 T, -10 Ag, -10 Fel

Guild Brother: Squats are, as a race, well trained in the arcane art of technology. They gain Tech Use and Trade (Mining) as Basic Skills. If they have a 40+ INT they also gain the Infused Knowledge Talent. Squats gain the Speak Language (Low Gothic) and Secret Tongue (Guild Brotherhood) Skills.

Grudge Born Fury: Squats have an ancient grudge with Eldar, who used to raid their worlds, and have the Enemy (Eldar) Talent. They positively despise the Orkoid species who invaded their worlds and have the Hatred (Orkoids) Talent towards them. They have an even stronger grudge against the Tyranids, who finally destroyed their worlds outright and have not only Hatred (Tyranids), but the Frenzy Talent againt them as well, which they must take a WP test resist (if they even want to).

Enemy of Chaos: Although there are Traitor Squats serving the Dark Powers, they are rare as the average Squat considers such spiritual and moral corruption an anathema and they are mentally and physically hardened agaisnt it. Squats gain the Armour of Contempt Talent. They also have the Hatred (Traitor Squats) Talent.

Dark Melancholy: The destruction of the Squat Homeworlds and the scattering of the Squat race has left a deep psychological scar on the Squat psyche. This manifests itself in bouts of manic-depression, alchoholism (or potentially drug use) and a wicked temper that makes it hard to predict just what kind of state a Squat will be in at any moment in time. If a Squat rolls a 96+ on any roll, the stink of failure brings the reality of the Squat racial prediciment screaming into sharp focus and all further rolls by the Squat will be at a -10% for the rest of the adventure. This is instantly negated if the Squat's Grudge Born Fury is peaked by the presence of an Ork or Tyranid, as the thought of violently slaying one of their mortal enemies will cheer them up to no end.

Starting Wounds: D5+(TBx2)

Starting Fate: The Squats are on the decline and unless something drastic is done, they will disappear from the galaxy before even the despised Eldar. The survivors, however, are strong willed and fighting against the dying of the light and still have a place in the Emperor's plans. Rol a D10 to determine their starting Fate Points: On a 1-5 the Squat character begins with 1. On a 7-10 they bring with 2.

Luther said:

This is all excellent stuff. Good work!

Bit overpowered though, with all those talents and stuff. Using the normal Origin Path system you'd end up with a character a lot more powerful than anyone else. I'd suggest trimming some of it, possibly allowing the player to chose between one of those "Hatred"s, perhaps to indicate which of those troubled the character's clan/family/whatever the most. Otherwise you end up with major advantages over other players.

The game itself isn't balanced, but the character generation system has to be.

Eh. You'd probably be able to do Squats and Ogryns easily enough with the Tainted Lure of the Void. It's what I did with an abhuman catgirl I made; she has the Aberration mutation. Squats would probably have the Brute mutation, and Ogryns most certainly have the Hulkling mutation.

MILLANDSON said:

Actually, I looked over the other Home World Origins extensively and almost every one has a number of advantages with a single disadvantage. But let's look at some of those in detail.

First, the stat bonuses. These pretty much cancel each other out.

The Guild Brother trait provides two skills as 'Basic' skills, which means you roll at half your Attribute to use them, as opposed to their being fully trained skills, so these are of minor benefit but do reflect Squat upbringing. It also provides a language and a secret tongue, no big deal there, either, as most Origins provide two 'languages.' Finally it provides a pretty good Talent in Infused Knowledge, but only the mst intelligent Squats will get that one (you need to roll a 15 or higher for Int to get it). So over all, flavourful but not overpowering.

Grudge Born Fury is iconically Sqaut-ish and reflects the grudge bearing nature of squats since the original Rogue Trader days, but what about the individual talents?. Well, the Enemy (Eldar) Talent is actually a disadvantage as it provides a -10% to any relations with them but doesn't give any sort of combat advantage. Hatred of Orks is only natural for them and gives them a 10% bonus, but it is only an Active Talent when Orks are around. Other than that, it doesn't do anything. The Hatred and Frenzy against Tyrannids works the same way, the Talents are only as effective as the number of times you meet with those particular aliens. In addition, the Frenzy is involuntary unless a WP test can be made, which actually makes it as much of a disadvantage as an advantage, especially when your crew-mates have to decide whether to save you after you charge a horde of genestealers in a blind rage.

Enemy of Chaos provides Armour of Contempt, which is a clear advantage, but not unheard of in the Origins and one that clearly fits Squat nature. And again, Hatred (Traitor Squats) is another binary Talent, effective only when you actually meet one, which would be rare indeed.

And now the ultimate balancing mechanism: Dark Melancholy. Once you fail a roll misearbly and either do not have or refuse to use an FP to reroll that, you are stuck with a -10% to everything for the rest of the adventure. This is a massive disadvantage. True it occurs only rarely but when it does, you are hosed in a major way for a good long time.

Fate points: 1 less than normal.

To break it down, we have:

2x Advanced skills made basic. Let's say that these are a half an advantage each for 1pt.

2x Skills. These are clear advantages, so 2 pts.

1x Talent that you have a 20% chance of getting at chargen. Since you may or may not qualify for it, let's call it a 1/2 point.

1x Talent that is a disadvantage, but only on certain occasions (when meeting Eldar). -0.5 points.

4x Talents that are Situational and only as useful as the number of times those particular situations arise and one of which is actually a disadvantage as well. As the value of these is entirely binary, let's call them a half point each for 2 points.

1x Talent that is an Advantage. 1 Point.

1x Origin Trait that can happen at any time regardless of situation and confers a major disadvantage, but lets just call it a -1 for arguments sake.

1 less starting Fate Point. -1 Point.

So, totting those up, we have a 3 point advantage. Now go back over the other Home World Origins and using the same reasoning you'll see:

Death Worlders: 3 points.

Void Born: 4 points

Forge World: 3 points

Hive Worlders: 3 points

Imperial Worlder: 3 Points

Noble: 5 Points.

Now obviously others may judge the total cost to be different for each of those, and even those evaluations can change based on the nature of the campaign (squats would be a lot more effective in a campaign full of Orks, for instance) but I imagine that we're talking a point or two difference in either direction in most cases, so the numbers are close enough to show that the Squat is roughly average as far as advantage goes. If you really wanted to cry foul, it should be towards the Noble who is better that all the others by a point or more (and rightfully so considering the universe).

Luther said:

After looking over the stats and your rational for them, I think there's still too many problems. They mostly boil down to this: you can make a viscious, overpowered close-combat squat with few drawbacks. While other Home World Origins often push a character towards certain careers, the Squat is the Guardsman wet dream. These stats basically force a player to create a combat squat, who will then outshine any other combat PCs in the group. Sure, he'll suck in social situations and he doesn't have great dodge, but he's tough as nails and slices people up in melee, especially Orks and 'nids.

The other problem is that most of their traits - both good and bad - are far, far too situational, but when they do come up they can have a major impact on the character (except for the Eldar one - the non-social character being even more socially inept isn't a big loss, as he won't be doing the talking anyway). Dark Melancholy is especially problematic, simply because it is too harsh. The Fatepoints thing isn't that big a nerf - plenty of PCs start off with only 1 FP, so they aren't really going to notice the difference.

A squat character makes either A) an extremely overpowered melee character B) an extremely weak social character or C) a so-so anything-else character. Obviously most players are going to choose A. This character will then rule, especially against Orks and 'nids, until he rolls a 96+, at which point he'll probably suck.

macd21 said:

And you got all that empirical information on how much it sucks and how people will use it by just looking over my post without any sort of playtesting, huh. By your reasoning, nobody playing WFRP Dwarfs (which this design is largely drawn from) would ever play anything but a combat munchkin Trollslayer. And seeing how nobody has ever played a non-Trollslayer Dwarf character, I stand corrected and bow to your obviously superior uber-nerdness.

Oh, and it was awfully grand of you to post an alternative as opposed to just laying down your judgment of how much it sucks and then ending your post with no useful suggestions. That shows class.

Seriously, why do I bother. In fact, I don't think I will anymore...

Luther said:

DH isn't WFRP and the stats you posted aren't the same as those of a Dwarf. The attribute mods themselves aren't too bad (they aren't masterful game design either, however), but combined with the other traits they make squat combat munchkins too good and anything else kinda pointless. And no, I don't need to playtest those stats to figure out the inevitable consequences. I am that much of an uber-nerd that I can figure out that combat bonus + combat bonus + trait that makes you better in combat vs Orks + trait that makes you better in combat vs 'nids + trait that makes you better in combat vs Traitor Squats = good in combat. The skills are just gravy (means that you don't have to spend xp on them that can be spent on combat talents instead). Against this you've got penalties to social stuff and - 10 Ag, the only combat related penalty there.

Luther said:

Here's a suggestion: if you don't want to hear a critique of your work, keep it to yourself. You know what's classy? Not throwing a hissy fit when someone points out flaws in your design.

Luther, I don't quite think your rules lead to an inevitable combat monster, but they do lean that way. I'd be more inclined to simply strip out the Hatred and Enemy rules. And the Grudge one. Why? Well, it's just an excuse to legislate IMO.

Both/all of those things can be done in a more characterful way without having to do it right off the bat. Include a Trait more akin to Vendetta or the Mindscrub's 'key word' which I forget the name of. This then forces the player to 'agree' something with the GM, but not necessarily have it tied into the statistics and abilities of the character.

If I were 'homeworlding' the Squats/Space Dwarfs (not Demiurg!), I'd be most tempted to:

- Boost put Ag at 15 base, toughness at 25; everything else 20s
- Higher wounds, lower fate
- Speak Language bonus language + low gothic
- Three 'other' traits: One representing a dispersed civilisation (and thus a lingering pride, a distancing from everyone else, a bit like the Mechanicus' Stranger to the Cult ), one representing their tech-affinity (Tech-Use as normal, Trade[Technomat] as basic?) and one dealing with Grudges/Ancestory stuff as described above [like vendetta].
- I'd be tempted to consider a final Trait expounding on just how abhuman they are; but I'm not sure that's entirely necessary or productive.

To put it mildly, I don't think it's really a major point in 40k. The squats, unlike the dwarfs, are noted as being essentially human. Tougher, shorter but essentially human. The rest is all just really a cultural thing. Imperial Worlders don't get Hatred (All Xenos, All Daemons, All Traitors), and I'm not terribly convinced the space dwarfs should be just dwarfs translated into space (even then, they'd not get all that).

Nope, for me the intriguing bit of Squats is exploring the ideas of them in 40k. And changing the name. Bleh. But simply playing a dwarf in space? I'm not that interested in it, to tell the truth.

And that's why, if ever I have my way, Demiurg won't routinely use hammers or axes, certainly won't have beards and don't worship their ancestors!

Xisor said:

A Squat isn't any more of a combat monster than a Death Worlder, in my mind. It all depends on the career you take and what weapon talents it offers. But I can see the reasoning behind lowering the 'Dwarf' stat modifiers by half, as that seems to fit the pattern of +3 or +5 laid out in other places. So a +5WS (Squats are specialists in close quarter fighting in the fluff due to a lot of tunnel combat with the orks), +5T, -5 Ag and -5 Fel instead of the direct WFRP Dwarf stat translation (which is correct, despite what MoronD21 seems to think) makes sense to me.

The Grudge thing, though, seems extremely important for Squats considering the background fluff, however. Vendetta really doesn't work as the Eldar, ORks and the Tyranids aren't out to get Squats specifically. The only thing that really fits are Enemy and Hatred. As for Tyranids, sure the Iperials don't hate every creature in the universe that ever attacked them, but A. they aren't Squats, who remember every slight and every war, and B. they haven't been driven to the point of extinction. There has to be some way of reflecting that essential point of Squat character and I'm open to suggestions on how to do it mechanically.

Here's a suggestion: if you don't want to hear a critique of your work, keep it to yourself. You know what's classy? Not throwing a hissy fit when someone points out flaws in your design.

I don't mind reasoned critiques (like the one from Xisor) and anyone who knows me knows that I prefer to bandy ideas back and forth to create the best possible results, which I do with amazing frequency in my work. I'm just tired of you. Period. In all of the the threads I have been involved with in which you have posted, you offer NOTHING except negative comments and an attitude that can only be cultivated by the worst examples of nerd-dom. In short, you sir are an asshat, I don't like you and if I could hide your posts on this forum like I can on RPG.net, I would be a very happy man indeed.

C'mon you two. Tiffs and bickering might be pedantically accurate but it's not at all becoming of fine internet chappies!

With regards to the squats; it was might be warrior custom to be gruff (-5 Fel) and well trained for combat (+5WS), but I don't think it's a necessity.Of course, this can be easily dismissed as a preference/subjective outlook, but I think there's merit in the reasoning. That is: Squats aren't dwarfs, they're humans. Though their societies bear some of the overtones, squats aren't noted as having minds particularly disposed to remembering every single grudge and wrong ever done to them. They aren't an analogue of the society either. Most Squat worlds weren't continually besieged by orks, most weren't undone by Tyranids either.

Squats abroad in the Calixis Sector perhaps haven't even heard the detail of what happened in the core. I mean, how could they? Everyone there was killed!

As a generic representation, I really done think layering Hatred and Enemy on them is effective. It doesn't, IMO, do justice to the model you (should) want to be portraying! As with Vendetta , I don't mean an exact analogue. Reverse it, if you will. It's the Squats who have the vendetta against Orks; or anyone who's had cause to give them a bee in their bonnet. Of course, not even an exact likeness of Vendetta as need, just something like that.

Furthermore, since it's an online-fan-supplement (well, y'know what I mean) we're talking of, I think it's very important* to be restrained and understated in execution. Simple, straightforward and unambitious rules. Make 'em comfortable and don't let folks drown in odd, extra abilities or special exceptions. Either that or write them totally complicated and absolutely correct first time around.

* Garish, very in-depth, complicated or outlandish supplements, even if otherwise balanced and reasonable, are almost always bound to recieve 'I don't like this!' responses in the guise of a genuine complaint.

I was going to pop in and remind people that personal attacks are not tolerated on the forums, and find that someone has beaten me to it. My hat's off to you, Xisor, you put things better than I could have.

Wow, it is amazing that there are people out there who will get so excited about the Squats. I guess this proves that they are not extinct after all; that or it is just like people musing over missing Dodo birds etc....

@ Xisor

the fluff very much describes the Squats as having extremely well recorded histories and archives detailing their exodus and building of their strongholds. Imperial adepts marvelled at the meticulous record keeping maintained by each Stronghold. so much so a 'traditional epic ballad' called the Fall of Imbach, details and memorializes the destruction of a number of their homeworlds by the Orks. the squats were once trading partners of both the Eldar and the Orks. the Orks broke thair trade treaties and raided them, which broke out into full scale hostilities. attacked on all fronts the Squats went to their Eldar partners for aid and assistance, but were left with no response and go it alone. this caused a deep wound and bitter resentment for the squats.

i mention this summary of Squat history because it gives credence to why Luthor went the route he did in character creation. betrayed by both trading partners. brutally attacked by Orks. strongholds and their kinfolk eliminated. the hatred aspects are completely viable. as per Luthors stance on Chaos i would disagree with. the squats were described as having a great shame for their brothers that sided with Horus, but that is all.

i would challenge the notion though that the Squats were 'human'. human origin yes. but many millenia led to not only genetic drift but cultural. they were no longer humans and weren't considered as such by those that had 'discovered' them. it was taken under advisement that they were a stable and intelligent strain. they were dwarves in space, the differences are cosmetic at best. the similarities too fulfilling to completely ignore. GW attempted to put a decidely sapce opera spin on them but they are what they are. long histories, love of kinfolk, mining and metallurgy, technology, betrayed by Eldar (elves), strong enmity towards Orks for destroying a number of their strongholds,'strong fast growing hair' - the only difference being they grow 'short pointed beards', a longer lifespan than humans, irascible, shorttempered, and known for their doughty resolve and tenacity in battle. need i say more? again the differences are more superficial at best. the common marker points between dwarves and squats more telling.

i don't have any information pertaining to the destruction of the squat worlds destroyed by the Nids. anyone pointing me to where i can find that bit of literature would be most appreciated. what i would say about any squats found in the calixis sector, i would assume that MOST of them would be their because of fleeing the persistent attacks on their Strongholds from the Orks and Nids. the others migrated due to work and the pursuit of life, liberty and other forms of who knows what. considering though the aforementioned Squat tendency to record everything, their higher grasp for technology, and their bonds of kinship...i'd say its a pretty safe bet...they found out what happened to their ppl fairly quickly.

pertaining to the specific ruleset that Luthor has made. i don't see a big problem really. if thats what workds in his campaign, so be it. for the most part it remains faithful to the fluff IMO as does the pdf Something Other than Human. they're both good attempts at building on something.

i've never been one to really care too much about all the characters being fairly equal and balanced off against one another. i am most likely in the minority on that one. I GM a game that has a Squat, a Ratling. AND an Ogryn using Something Other Than Human and it has all turned out great. its a matter of making sure as the GM, that all characters have their place to shine and be able to take part. there is very lil game balance in the real world. everyone has their strengths and their weaknesses, their skills and expertise. its the GMs job to make sure that everyone gets their piece of the pie. thast the only real game balance i care about.

5 pages later. the battle of the Squats still rages. LOL. classic

the liegekiller said:

That'd be in the first couple of pages of Draco/The Inquisition War trilogy.

the liegekiller said:

Exactly my point. Liegekiller. Well said.

I did take the more reasonable suggestions and implemented them when a player created a Squat before our WFRP game last Sunday. So I reduced all the +10's to +5s and did likelwise with the negative modifiers. So the final stats were +5WS, +5T, -5Ag, -5Fel and the penalty for Dark Melancholy is -5 instead of -10. I kept the Enemy and Hatreds, however, for the reasons mentioned in Liegekillers post: Squat Psychology is deeply ingrained and racial.

But then, if you're going to argue that the 'Squat Personality' shouldn't define them, then you may as well get rid of all the other Home World Origins where their upbringing influences their personalities which in turn influences the Talents and Skills they receive in many cases...

Had a nice well-thought out reply. Stupid back-button of doom.

Sam: Always a pleasure to continue intriguing conversations, no sense letting good ideas escape out of misplaced pride/offense!

Liegekiller: I quite agree, albeit roundaboutly! Inquisition War is where you're looking for the tyranids bit, but it only amounts to a throwawy line remarking that 'the tyranids put paid to that line long ago' or similar words to that effect!

Luther (and all interested!): I relax my objections, but retain a stance of disagreement! I think there's easily (and appropriately) room for even more diversification. The squats might have a rigidly organised psychology for dealing with grudges, but (despite my dislike of it being simply 'too much just dwarfs in space') I think there's room for a more in-depth examination of it, not simply relegating it to a single Homeworld based package of Hate 'em as described. Which is to say: I really don't think squats from Calixis (say the Lathes) should be hating Tyranids without better explanation. How they even know enough about 'em to hate them so uniformly...even for the meticulous Squats...it's presumably not been too much more than a few decades since The Event . Hate Orks, simples. A Homeworld of being from the Cradle , absolutely: extra hate for Tyranids, some extra bonuses (reflecting a nice dwarfen refugee status...presumably carrying absolutely everything of value, so brigning a fair amount of ship-skill to the table but a hefty detriment to profit factor!).

To summarise my revised position: I still don't think the modifiers on WS and Fel are appropriate, at all, but I think even more important is diversification what sort of squat you're dealing with. One who's been amidst the Imperials for years, one who's a squat spacer, one who's from the Galactic Core, one who's from an outlying stronghold. All of these squats, if played close to the Dwarfs in Space style (which I'm averse to, but I can stomach it when other folks are doing it ), IMO merit a fair few homeworld options (or some more diverse choices within the one homeworld option).

But still, I've outlined my case; I'm not going to keep battering you about the head with it, don't worry!

For my own part, I'm very keen to write up some Demiurg stuff (in the same style as I'd done for BFG, Inquisitor and Epic Armageddon) to portray the Demiurg as both opportunities and antagonists; allowing for plenty of endeavours and especially writing up their ships and stations as NPSs! I mean, c'mon, the stardrovers trawl the galaxy far in wide, to be found deep in nigh-inaccessible asteroid belts and the scorching coronas of lonely stars...! Get some Demiurg in there, innovative! Not just 'Dwarfs in Space'. The Eldar ain't just elves in space! <pleasant grumbles>

@ Xisor

on this I will totolly agree with you. the 40K/DH universe is massive and unfulfilled. there is EASILY enough room to accomodate Squat variations and there should be no reason why this shouldn't be so. I'm not particularly one to dogmatically follow canon. it's a big universe with more tnan enough room for a steady flow of ideas both sound and utterly ridiculous. if one can fit it in their game, who am I (or anybody else, for that matter) to say what should or shouldn't be.

what i will offer to you as far as your words for Luther (and others interested)...concerning Squats residing in the Calixis sectors hatred for Tyranids. just as a thought for you to chew on a lil bit. we currently have an analogue of this kind of mindset to some extent in this current world. the muslims have a concept of the umma..the muslim community at large. the idea that what happens to one muslim, happens to them all. the Squats may be similar in mindset. what happened to them was nothing less than genocide. it would cause some pretty bad blood. but in my particular game, I have allowed Hatred (Tyranids). i can see your reasoning for having some issue with this.

i would suggest for those that also have issue with this, might I suggest. Fearless talent when dealing with Tyranids or Resistance Fear...i can see both sides of this. Squats as a species would have MUCH more enmity and combat skills against Orks than Tyranids therefore enabling the description of Hatred to more reasonable effect.

i so love a good tasteful mental punchup.

Xisor said:

That sounds really interesting. I've always liked Squats, and I think there's tons of potential in Demiurgs as diaspora squats. I would be really interested to read what you've already written: have you got it online somewhere?

I feel an eastern fringe setting in the making....

P.S. How about the following scenario for the Demiurg: The Squat homeworlds were wiped out by Tyranids. A small number of squats managed to escape the slaughter. Disgusted by the vulnerability of their planet bound former societies, and the complete lack of support (and possible exterminati) of the Empire, they started roaming space outside the empire, making their living through strip-mining of asteroids they come across, engineering and trade. They stay scrupulously out of the way of the empire and the life they once had there. Living on voidships is starting to tell: they grow pastry-skinned and void-touched, and possibly heavily augmented, almost like the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The Demiurg are serious, no-nonsense. They've cut their ties to the past, and their interested in survival, progress and profit.

Etepete said:

Other than the fact that it's been explicitly stated by GW that the Demiurg are absolutely nothing to do with the Squats, and are xenos, and so not related to humanity in any way, it's fine....

Of course, your 40k may vary.

Well, I dont think that GW will release "Offical Demiurgs" anyhow, so itll have to be fan-based. I.e. the writers take is more important than GW canon...

Jervis Johnson pretty much states that the Demiurg are Squats, maybe not the same race in the setting, but definitely the same concept. But yeah, you're right, by rights and canon they should be interpreted as a blank slate for the squat concept

Quote in full to be read here: www.warseer.com/forums.showtread.php?t=40899