My point regarding cost of the unit is that you won't be buying either a unit of elites or a unit of heavies.

Also on the subject of defence die: The white die is marginally better against elite stormies or royal guards, against weaker things black is a lot better (16% or so against regular stormies), against stronger things white is better. So given what I understand of the meta a white die is in general better.

My point regarding cost of the unit is that you won't be buying either a unit of elites or a unit of heavies.

But I thought about using either 2 units of Elite Stormtroopers or 3 units of Heavy Stormtroopers. Both are 18 points for 6 figures.

Also on the subject of defence die: The white die is marginally better against elite stormies or royal guards, against weaker things black is a lot better (16% or so against regular stormies), against stronger things white is better. So given what I understand of the meta a white die is in general better.

It depends.

If an attack doesn't hit, a black die and a white die are equally good.

If an attack roll has 3 Damage, a 3-block-result on the black die is as good as a dodge on the white die.

If an attack roll has 2 Damage, a 2-block-result as well as a 3-block-result on the black die are as good as a dodge on the white die.

If an attack roll has 1 Damage, a 1-block-result, a 2-block-result as well as a 3-block-result on the black die are as good as a dodge on the white die.

If an attack roll has >3 Damage, a dodge on the white die is better than any other roll.

If an attack has Surge: 1 Damage and the attacker actually rolls 1 surge, then a block and an evade are equally good.

If an attack has Surge: 1 Damage and the attacker actually rolls 0 surges, then the block is better than the evade.

If an attack has Surge: 2 Damage and the attacker actually rolls 1 surge, then the evade is better than the block.

If an attack has Surge: 2 Damage and the attacker actually rolls 0 surges, then the block is better than the evade.

If an attack has Surge: Pierce 1 Damage and the attacker actually rolls 1 surge, then a block and an evade are equally good.

If an attack has Surge: Pierce 1 Damage and the attacker actually rolls 0 surges, then the block is better than the evade.

If an attack has Surge: Pierce 2 Damage and the attacker actually rolls 1 surge, then ...

Tl;dr ... it depends.

The black die is better, when the attacker doesn't do that much damage per attack and/or doesn't have good surges. The white die becomes better, when the opponent rolls more damage or more surges and better surges (the dodge is more effective then).

When your local meta sees Vader as a staple, then the white die is better. When your current meta doesn't include any figure with a cost of more than 3 points per figure, then the black die is better. Everything in between ... depends.

Therefore, I usually treat the black and the white die as being equally good.

Very comprehensive analysis. Lots of good thoughts. Much appreciated.

Tl;dr ... it depends.

The black die is better, when the attacker doesn't do that much damage per attack and/or doesn't have good surges. The white die becomes better, when the opponent rolls more damage or more surges and better surges (the dodge is more effective then).

When your local meta sees Vader as a staple, then the white die is better. When your current meta doesn't include any figure with a cost of more than 3 points per figure, then the black die is better. Everything in between ... depends.

Therefore, I usually treat the black and the white die as being equally good.

<b>In my experience<\b>, the White die is more valuable in the current meta. The most common attacking units in the meta are RGs, Elite Saboteurs, and Elite Stormtroopers. All three rely on surges for their effectiveness, and all three have an average of ~one surge when not focused. An Evade saves you from 2 damage, Stun, or Blast 2 and I would rather have that than more block results.

Also on the subject of defence die: The white die is marginally better against elite stormies or royal guards, against weaker things black is a lot better (16% or so against regular stormies), against stronger things white is better. So given what I understand of the meta a white die is in general better.

Tl;dr ... it depends.

Therefore, I usually treat the black and the white die as being equally good.

This 'it depends so I'm not going to look into it more deeply' seems completely at odds with the idea of this thread.

Trust me, I've looked very deeply into it and came to the conclusion, that most of the time the black and the white die are equally good.

Feel free to disagree, but please don't tell me, that I haven't looked into this ...

Okay, I'm a math nerd so I enjoy the actual calculation of the value of the dice; you seem by my impression to be dismissing this when it disagrees with what you've already said, at least to an extent, I apologise if that's not the case but it's the impression I have. (Trying to be honest and respectful at the same time about something you disagree on is hard).

Okay, I'm a math nerd so I enjoy the actual calculation of the value of the dice; you seem by my impression to be dismissing this when it disagrees with what you've already said, at least to an extent, I apologise if that's not the case but it's the impression I have. (Trying to be honest and respectful at the same time about something you disagree on is hard).

Why don't you start your own topic and build a case as to which die is better.

Prove to us all that you actually are a math nerd, so far I havn't seen any evidence of this other than your word!

The actual calculation of the values of the dice depends on the environment, i.e. the current meta. It depends on variables, that we don't know. It depends on your opponents decisions (hostile Vader attacks your Stormtrooper or your Officer / hostile Stormtrooper attacks your Stormtrooper or your Officer). And then it varies by about 1/6 block between black and white on an average.

Black and white are different. In one case black is better, in another case white is better. But none of them is universally better.

[...] 1 defense die (I don't want to argue if black or white is better) [...]

!!!

I'm less concerned about the defense die and more about the attack die (which can be objectively valued with some minor assumptions); I might post the full math when I get home but your statements about relative damage of Heavy when compared with Elite Heavies and Elite Storm-troopers are not reasonable, hence my issue.

EDIT: Here are stats of damage for elite and regular versions or heavy or regular storm-troopers (this doesn't take into account defence die, squad training, blast or accuracy)(sadly the forum doesn't like me copy pasting from excel):

No real value in including basic stromies but it was easy.

BR dice:

roll chance damage damage(elite)

d+s 1/36 2 3

2d 2/36 2 2

2d+s 3/36 3 4

2d+2s 1/36 3 4

3d 6/36 3 3

3d+s 6/36 4 5

3d+2s 1/36 4 5

4d 8/36 4 4

4d+s 4/36 5 6

5d 4/36 5 5

Average damage for a regular:3,7/9

Average damage for an elite: 4,2/9

BG dice:

roll chance damage damage(elite)

2s 1/36 1 2

d+s 2/36 2 3

d+2s 3/36 2 3

2d 0 2 2

2d+s 9/36 3 4

2d+2s2/36 3 4
3d 6/36 3 3

3d+s 7/36 4 5

4d 6/36 4 4

Average damage for a regular: 3,1/6

Average damage for an elite: 3,5/6

If you add the 1 damage in the few cases that a heavy rolls 2 surges then that takes the basic heavy up to 3,5/6

Update:

Regular Stormtrooper vs. Regular Snowtrooper

Regular Snowtroopers have mostly the same rules as Regular Stormtroopers, they are just a little bit more expensive (7 points vs. 6 points per unit).

Regular Stormtroopers +1

Regular Snowtroopers have more health per point than Regular Stormtroopers: (3x4)/7 ≈ 1.7 vs. (3x3)/6 = 1.5. More health is better than less health.

Regular Snowtroopers +1

Squad Training is great.

Regular Stormtroopers +1

Surges: Regular Stormtroopers have +1 Damage and +2 Accuracy, Regular Snowtroopers have Pierce 1 and +2 Accuracy. In some cases +1 Damage is better than Pierce 1, in other cases it's not. In addition, Regular Snowtroopers have Weaken, which is a good.

Regular Snowtroopers +0.5

Environmental Recovery Gear makes the real difference between these two units. A single unit of Snowtroopers can solve a lot of problems: Stunned E-Web? Bleeding Kayn Somos? Who you gonna call? Snowtroopers!

Regular Snowtroopers +1

Both units fulfil different roles. Regular Stormtroopers are cannonfodder. With Squad Training and theit Surges, they deal a little bit more damage. Snowtroopers are too expensive for being cannonfodder, still they are a little bit tougher and add in some support in form of Environmental Recovery Gear. In a list that contains many Troopers, the addition of a single unit of Snowtroopers can save the day. Still, I wouldn't recommend more than one unit of Regular Snowtroopers, because you wouldn't need it.

Elite Stormtrooper vs. Elite Snowtrooper

Elite Snowtroopers have mostly the same rules as Elite Stormtroopers, they are just a little bit more expensive (10 points vs. 9 points per unit).

Elite Stormtroopers +1

Elite Snowtroopers have more health per point than Elite Stormtroopers: (3x6)/10 = 1.8 vs. (3x5)/9 ≈ 1.666. More health is better than less health.

Elite Snowtroopers +1

Both Squad Training and Last Stand are great.

Elite Stormtrooper +2

Surges: Elite Stormtroopers have +2 Damage and +3 Accuracy, Elite Snowtroopers have Pierce 2 and +3 Accuracy. In some cases +2 Damage is better than Pierce 2, in other cases it's not. In addition, Elite Snowtroopers have Focus, Weaken ... this is great!!!

Elite Snowtroopers +1.5

Environmental Recovery Gear makes a difference between these two units. If you just want to have that ability in your list, then field Regular Snowtroopers. Still, it's a really great addition.

Elite Snowtroopers +1

Efficient Travel makes the Elite Snowtroopers more mobile.

Elite Snowtroopers +1

=> Elite Snowtroopers are tougher and more mobile. They add in support in form of their Environmental Recovery Gear. The SURGE: Focus, Weaken is just great!!! I think, on an average, both units deal the same amount of damage. This is a close one, but it goes to the Elite Snowtroopers. The Elite Stormtroopers are still not bad, …

I would love to play:

Kayn Somos

2x Elite Snowtroopers

Elite E-Web

2x Officer

It's a pity, that Kayn is to expensive for this.

Elite E-Web vs. SC2-M Repulsor Tank

The Elite E-Web and the SC2-M Repulsor Tank have mostly the same rules, the Tank is just more expensive (8 points vs. 10 points).

Elite E-Web +1

The Elite E-Web has the Trooper keyword, the SC2-M Repulsor Tank is just a Vehicle. At the moment, the Trooper keyword creates a lot more synergies (Kayn Somos, Snowtroopers, Command Cards …). This might change with comong releases.

Elite E-Web +1

The Tank is faster than the Elite E-Web (Speed 4 vs. Speed 3). In addition, it doesn't have the Tripod ability.

SC2-M Repulsor Tank +2

Assault is better than Focus Fire. The use of Focus Fire has to be announced before the first attack is declared. Focus Fire is limited to the same target. Thus, if your first shot kills your target, your second action is lost. If you are able to give the E-Web a third action during its activation, it can use this action to attack. Focus Fire is really good, but Assault is better.

Elite E-Web +0.5

The SC2-M Repulsor Tank's attacks are a little bit more effective. Both have SURGE: 2 Damage on a blue, red and yellow die on two attacks per turn (This is huge!). The Tank adds in a constant +2 Accuracy, the E-Web even adds in a constant +3 Accuracy. As the Tank is more mobile, he doesn't need the Accuracy-boost as much as the E-Web. In addition, the Tank has SURGE: Blast 1 Damage, which is really good, especially with Focus Fire.

SC2-M Repulsor Tank +0.5

The Tank is Massive: Figures do not block line of sight to or from a Massive figure. This is like Priority Target with a little drawback. This is great, because it lowers the chance, that it might be necessary to move before you shoot. Therefore, this raises the chance to use Focus Fire. Massive figures can enter spaces containing blocking terrain and impassible terrain. They can also move through and end their movement on blocked or impassible edges. Massive figures can enter spaces containing hostile figures and/or difficult terrain at no additional movement cost. This is also great, because the Tank becomes more mobile that way. AND you can block a whole hallway with the Tank.

SC2-M Repulsor Tank +1

An Elite E-Web is very hard to kill, because of the SURGE: Recover 2 Damage on 2 attacks per turn on a blue, red and yellow die. The E-Web gets an inherent +1 Block, the Tank can choose from either +1 Block or +1 Evade with Defensible. The Tank also has more health per point (7/8 = 0,875 vs 10/10 = 1).

I'm not sure about this, it's definitely close, but I think it's +1 for the E-Web.

Over all, this one's a tie. Both the Elite E-Web and the SC2-M Repulsor Tank are great.

The wrongest party of my mind wants to use

Wiess
ATST
SC2-M Repulsor Tank

As a list

I miss THE model in your list. The AT-ST.

It seems that it isn't played in skirmish?!

Is it considered as bad?

It's neither a Trooper nor a Leader, so it's not in my list for now ... maybe I will do this in the future.

Actually, I've never seen one on the board ...

You will soon enough with my list!

Vechicular Manslaughter!

Muahahahahaha!

Is the Repulsor Tank a Trooper??

I'm going to play a tournament soon ... I've not even played once yet ...

I have the core set only so far.

I'm thinking about Officers, Troopers and an AT-ST for my list.

So like:

Well said on each analysis, IMHO.

I tend to agree about Kayn. It seems that the majority of unique figures are just a bit too fragile, compared to their non-unique counterparts (ie, the Deployment Card options that give you more than one character). Right now Luke and Boba seem to be pretty much the only Uniques that can't be out-done by non-uniques for the same cost. The common denominator there is Recovery and automatic defenses (+1 Block for Luke, +1 Block and Evade for Boba). Maybe there's more to it than that, but both of those factors tend to put these guys above the line for me. I know that IG-88 also has Recovery and automatic Block, but his health was just too low from the start...he should've had at least 12 Health, rather than 10.

Luke has a good damage output, is mobile, has Son of Skywalker, and brings a reroll to the dreaded Saboteurs ...

Boba is just Boba.

It seems that the majority of unique figures are just a bit too fragile, compared to their non-unique counterparts

More or less all the "generic" Rebel Uniques are not good enough because of this (except for Gideon).

Is the Repulsor Tank a Trooper??