#1: Move says we can move objects, not living things (this appears to be more the purview of Bind), yet there are many people on the board who believe it can move living things; is there something I've missed in the description of the power or its properties that permits this?

#2: When using Magnitude to attack with multiple objects, if only a single target is attacked, activating Autofire does not appear to be required; I assume this means that all objects hit the target on 1+ net successes. That having been established, do extra successes then increment each instance of damage dealt?

For example, I hit a target with 4 Silhouette 0 objects, each doing 5 base damage. I have 2 extra successes. Am I dealing 22 damage (5 * 4 + 2) since the damage increment applies only once, or 28 damage ((5 + 2) * 4) before soak, etc, since the bonus damage from these extra successes applies to each object?

#1 I believe on an episode of Order 66 podcast, Sam and the others clarified that creatures and NPCs were considered objects.

#2 It works exactly like autofire rules in this case, including needed 2 advantage per additional hit. In your example, you would deal 7 damage to the target 4 separate times (so soak applies to each hit).

The Move Force Power

Question asked by Kaosoe:

The book states that "if the player wants to use Move to throw multiple objects at multiple targets, he may do so using all the rules for hitting targets with the Auto-fire quality"

First question:

It's unclear to me if the autofire rules are used when throwing multiple objects due to activating Magnitude upgrades, or when trying to throw multiple objects without using the magnitude upgrades.

For example, if I am a force user wanting throwing a silhouette 0 sized stone at a 2 stormtroopers at short range. Would I...

1.) Use autofire rules and not bother activating the magnitude upgrade.

Or...

2.) Use autofire rules and still have to activate the magnitude upgrade.

Does this mean the PC can use the control upgrade to move two objects (assuming the necessary pips to activate any other upgrades for range and strength) as long as the difficulty is adjusted using the autofire rules? Or must the character also activate the necessary Magnitude upgrades as well

Second Question:

The Range upgrade says I can spend force points to increase maximum range at which he Force user can move an object. There is some disagreement between me and my players with what this means.

By default a Force user can move an object at short range. If I activate all three range upgrades, would my character be able to move an object that is starting at Extreme range from my character, or just move an object from short range all the way to extreme range if I want?

Answered by Sam Stewart:

To your first question, you would still have to activate Magnitude to throw multiple objects. So you’d have to spend all the Force points, and increase the difficulty, and target the most difficult target.

To your second question, range upgrades increase the range that you can start effecting objects.

Re:1

Yeah, the devil is in the details. You can move a person, but the details are it's not exactly "Force Push" in that doing something like tossing the target AND knocking them prone will require you to spend Advantage/Triumph.

#1: So if we can lift people with Move, it would theoretically be possible to launch them into the air (up to as high as the power Range) and have them take tons of fall damage? Or just make them hover in place high above the ground? That seems pretty insane, especially when they normally can't resist.

This also appears to be incredibly cheap next to Bind + Bind's control component which explicitly does this, with Move requiring only 10 XP in upgrades to change a human sized target's position vs 35 XP in upgrades for Bind, and to potentially a much greater extent with Range upgrades purchased and utilized with Move.

#2: I'm not clear on this; you said that invoking the Autofire rules is required. However Autofire only appears to trigger when you attack multiple targets with multiple objects (Page 299) whereas I'm only attacking one target in this case. The example features an attempt at attacking multiple targets (2 Stormtroopers) so I'm not sure how applicable it is.

#1: So if we can lift people with Move, it would theoretically be possible to launch them into the air (up to as high as the power Range) and have them take tons of fall damage? Or just make them hover in place high above the ground? That seems pretty insane, especially when they normally can't resist.

This also appears to be incredibly cheap next to Bind + Bind's control component which explicitly does this, with Move requiring only 10 XP in upgrades to change a human sized target's position vs 35 XP in upgrades for Bind, and to potentially a much greater extent with Range upgrades purchased and utilized with Move.

Yes. You're correct. Move is incredibly powerful no matter which way you slice it. There have been a number of discussions on how to handle these situations.

#2: I'm not clear on this; you said that invoking the Autofire rules is required. However Autofire only appears to trigger when you attack multiple targets with multiple objects (Page 299) whereas I'm only attacking one target in this case. The example features an attempt at attacking multiple targets (2 Stormtroopers) so I'm not sure how applicable it is.

Autofire also allows you to hit a single target mutliple times. You simply increase the difficulty by one and spend two advantage to hit an additional time. The same rules apply here in this case.

It's easier to think of the Force dice as a way to determine if you are able to hurl the objects, and the success/advantage determines if you are able to hit your target(s) with said object(s).

#1: So if we can lift people with Move, it would theoretically be possible to launch them into the air (up to as high as the power Range) and have them take tons of fall damage? Or just make them hover in place high above the ground? That seems pretty insane, especially when they normally can't resist.

This also appears to be incredibly cheap next to Bind + Bind's control component which explicitly does this, with Move requiring only 10 XP in upgrades to change a human sized target's position vs 35 XP in upgrades for Bind, and to potentially a much greater extent with Range upgrades purchased and utilized with Move.

Yes. You're correct. Move is incredibly powerful no matter which way you slice it. There have been a number of discussions on how to handle these situations.

I'm not arguing that Move isn't a powerful ability and has great potential for abuse, but in this particular instance (comparing Move and Bind) it's not quite that bad.

The Bind power will immobilize one target, and with upgrades it can also Disorient them, include multiple targets, Stagger them and commit Force dice to sustain the effects. Move, by comparison, can lift someone into the air. While they can't move from point A to point B, they're still free to do anything else they want. They can perform actions and manoeuvres, and there is nothing in the rules that suggest that they should suffer so much as a single setback die to anything they do. I'm not saying that it isn't logical that they should, but if you're a GM who has a problem with your players abusing the Move power there is no requirement to let them do anything except what it says on the tin: move someone from one location to another.

@ Krieger22: Well I mean, launching someone Medium+ Distance into the air, then having them crash down is basically a reliable/effective instant kill (30 wounds, 20 strain!) with a total upgrade cost of 15 which is insane; 20 if you want to be absolutely sure they're dead and grab a second range upgrade to make that a Long Distance fall (Incapacitated with +50 critical wound, 30 strain!). That seems super broken. Suspending someone is a pretty tame use by comparison.

Also, is it possible to use Move to make yourself fly by committing 2 Force Dice; one to upgrade the Strength, the other to activate the base power?

@ Kaosoe: Hmm, my confusion stems from the fact that the rulebook says that the Auto-Attack rules only apply for Move in the event you are making multiple attacks vs multiple targets rather than multiple attacks vs a single target.

For the fall damage exploit the suggestions that I think work the best are:

1. Suffer 10 conflict when dropping a target. You are essentially killing a helpless target and instilling fear in them in the process. How very evil of you.

2. To hurt someone with the move power essentially is the hurl upgrade. So use rules from that and you can narrate it however you want. In another words, ignore the rules for fall damage and deal 10 x silhouette instead using all the rules of the Hurl control upgrade.

I understand your confusion with the multiple targes and autofire. I think that may just be poor wording in the description of the power. I would run it as autofire rules. But if you want an official ruling, you should submit a support question. Sam may not be able to respond to the question right away, but he does eventually respond.

@ Krieger22: Well I mean, launching someone Medium+ Distance into the air, then having them crash down is basically a reliable/effective instant kill (30 wounds, 20 strain!) with a total upgrade cost of 15 which is insane; 20 if you want to be absolutely sure they're dead and grab a second range upgrade to make that a Long Distance fall (Incapacitated with +50 critical wound, 30 strain!). That seems super broken. Suspending someone is a pretty tame use by comparison.

Yes, but suspending them was what I was specifically talking about; that's why I made a point of saying that when comparing Move with Bind, Bind is the better option.

Anytime someone wanted to kill someone with the Move power by dropping them from great height, I'd run it precisely the way kaosoe laid out.

For the fall damage exploit the suggestions that I think work the best are:

1. Suffer 10 conflict when dropping a target. You are essentially killing a helpless target and instilling fear in them in the process. How very evil of you.

Using the Conflict mechanic to fix the broken Move power is a poor bandaid. I don't recall Maul, Ventress, Dooku, or Sidious* doing this, and they wouldn't care about the Conflict...

One can house rule the power requirements for this, or simply make the difficulty contested (by Athletics, Discipline, etc).

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* except with Mace, but it could be argued that was a lateral, not a vertical, move and probably tied to Unleash.

#1: So if we can lift people with Move, it would theoretically be possible to launch them into the air (up to as high as the power Range) and have them take tons of fall damage? Or just make them hover in place high above the ground? That seems pretty insane, especially when they normally can't resist.

This also appears to be incredibly cheap next to Bind + Bind's control component which explicitly does this, with Move requiring only 10 XP in upgrades to change a human sized target's position vs 35 XP in upgrades for Bind, and to potentially a much greater extent with Range upgrades purchased and utilized with Move.

In this case I'd rule that mechanically you can only do the damage listed by the power - no matter how you narratively explain it whether they're beign hit with an object or lifted up and dropped from some height. The only exception to this is if the terrain/scenario allows someone to be dropped off the edge of a precipice or something then I'd allow Move to push them off and kill them or give them a chance to try a Skill Check to grab on or something.

And if someone wanted to use Move to replicate the effects of Bind I'd make them use Bind.

Just my 2 credits.