Ok, well what about Big bad Punisher aimed for 40-50 points (So much customization that it's hard to judge) One 25-30 point wingman (sigma, RGP, ACADV) and maybe a couple of TIE's?

Thanks for your thoughts.

I have a problem with the lack of firepower in range 3, where secondary weapons really shine.

And I've tried Echo several times now ... shes such a waste in my hands it hurts.

I'm also not very keen on 3 ship builds.

I think Tempests + AC and Prockets are a better 'anvil'.

But - I will try this list and see if it plays out.

No worries! If Echo isn't your speed, two AC Tempests are the same cost. You lose the Prockets but I find those are more effective for me with PtL+Boost (so....Green Sq A-Wings or higher). And you're correct, Range 3 is a tough spot for a generic Punisher in general because it's hard to get your TL set up right for that anyway, and after first engagement Range 3 isn't as common as Range 2. The pair of Clusters, followed by free TLs for Range 1 shots (Boost!), should make short work of anything with low AGI and high HP. Echo was there to hold off arc dodgers, but four ships on the table (especially two FCS ships and two AC ships) can fan out and harry Fel with the best of them.

I love Echo, and against my opponents I find that the sheer psychological weapon she brings to the table is worth the points alone.

And that's my favourite part of that Echo build. Even if you have a shot on Echo, the Jammer and doube Focus keep her on the table just so well. I'd honestly pair her with B-Wings if I could but the Imps don't quite have something directly comparable. The above Cutlasses are my best shot at making them knife fighters for under 30 points, but some day I'd like to be able to use a couple Gunboats for the same role.

I wouldn't consider the generics outside of epic and I wouldn't take both characters to a tournament. I ran a Deathrain/Redline/Scimitar list and it was fun, but in a competetive enviroment it would fall apart. If you want cheap generic ordnance platforms TIE Bombers are still the way to go.

Ok, well what about Big bad Punisher aimed for 40-50 points (So much customization that it's hard to judge) One 25-30 point wingman (sigma, RGP, ACADV) and maybe a couple of TIE's?

I own 2 and I want to use them as Missile platform + 2 escorts ...

But I'm unable to put that together in a satisfying way.

One thing left: I like symmetry

One thing that my friends and I do is an after action on the game. and To reinforce, Echo being unpredictable just does so much for the psywar dice.

In 40K the nearest equivilent is Lias Issodon, as a psychological tool it's just fantastic.

I do maintain however that punishers are too big for what they do.

They easily run to 40-50 points and that's just too much, for a low agi ship that's a huge ass target, so slimming them is required. Whatever you have escorting Red or Deathrain should be at least as scary OR scarier but less noticible, so you have thin Red/Deathrain acting as Imperial Biggs while the real threat hides in the shadow of the mustache. Maybe Fat Fel's Wrath?

And yeah, Symmetry is why my imperial lists are either 3-4 interceptor/advanced/bombers or Something big and scary with a miniswarm. / 2 25'ers.

Usually I make a 50 points and I have symmetry if I double it up to 100

OK ...

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (29)

–FCS

–Extra Munitions

–Cluster Missiles

+ Flechettes for range 3?

= 31 points

leavin 19 points for the escort ...

Alpha + MKII? ...

**** I need 20 points left for AT...

Add Redline with the same loadout except Plasma instead of Flechettes. Give him Autothrusters, add Dark Curse and Night Beast. It's not entirely symmetrical, but at least it's two of each ship, and I'm pretty sure it would wipe the floor with a two Cutlass, two Alpha list.

My problem with punishers is that I find it too easy to overload them, I feel they do need escorts

Sounds like another job for the TIE Aggressor!

I own 2 and I want to use them as Missile platform + 2 escorts ...

But I'm unable to put that together in a satisfying way.

One thing left: I like symmetry

Something like this could work - it's certainly a decent chunk of missile/torpedo firepower in the Punishers, and the TIE/fo pair should be able to dodge around the place and generally make a nuisance of themselves. Alternatively, swap Adrenaline Rush for Draw Their Fire to pull some damaging crits away from the Punishers.

At least Foofighters don't blow up that easily.

With Draw their Fire they would make a good escort, catching that one crit with their shield.

The Punisher is its own beast and deserves at least that slight respect.

Well, yes. Respect given. They look massive on the table.

Now I try to make a list with 2 of them which I could at least take to a local tournament.

Hi Starkiller, I too want to run 2 punishers, and I've had a lot of fun with the following:

Cutlass with EM, AC & Conner Net x2

Whisper with VI, FCS, ACD & Intel agent

To be honest. While Redline and Deathrain are REALLY nice abilities. i'm more inclined to bring extra-munitions bombers.

these options aren't terribly comparable

Redline and Deathrain are amazing because they have capabilities that are utterly unique to themselves

Redline is, thus far, the only self sufficient ordnance carrier in the game. The double-locks and access to extra munis gives you the only sustained cluster missile platform in the game (closest we get are stim n'dru and Vessery, both of whom only get one shot) plus the only worthwhile user of basically every non-flechette torp until the Jumpmaster5000 comes out

Deathrain gets front-bombs (esp mines). no one else gets front-bombs (mines). That's an ease of use unrivaled by anything else you could get your hands on, even the awesome K-wing.

Bombers simply cannot do what these pilots can. On the flip side, bombers provide an efficiency untouchable by the generic Punisher. which one you take will depend entirely on your own needs

As for the Punisher as a whole, anyone using them is going to have to accept their status as glass-cannons

Redline especially is basically the imperial Wedge (except actually beefy and damaging enough to challenge fat ships). He will kill your ass and he will get his ass killed. Effective use of him comes down to distance control for managing TLs (without which he is worthless) and flanking with a mini-swarm

the mini-swarm provides essential protection and support by throwing bodies in front of the enemy. The protection comes from action and positioning denial (Don't let them shoot Redline) and the support comes from the exact same thing (keep them in his arc; leave them no defensive actions to soak ordnance with)

I think/hope that wave 8 will make all missile/torp platforms very happy. Gui- C- and the Tracer round will hopefully push munitions into the realm of competitive play. Still have the issue of the cheaper bomber lying right there.

To OP, I would agree that a free extra munitions would be fun and probably balanced way to get generic Pyoonishers out on the table but would potentially be a little much on the named pilots.

The Punisher is its own beast and deserves at least that slight respect.

Well, yes. Respect given. They look massive on the table.

Now I try to make a list with 2 of them which I could at least take to a local tournament.

Hi Starkiller, I too want to run 2 punishers, and I've had a lot of fun with the following:

Cutlass with EM, AC & Conner Net x2

Whisper with VI, FCS, ACD & Intel agent

I guess this could work out.

Maybe you want to swap AC to AS, to drop a conner before moving.

And in this list Whisper with FCS is to do the dirty work, which is fair enough.

But I imagine the Punishers to be the heavy hitters and damage workhorses and I still can't find a list that satisfy the needs of this customer.

Its always that I come beck to the Tie Bomber or the Tie Advanced.

Why you don't just swap the Cutlass to scimitars in your list?

This would free up 16 points for Backstabber or Dark Curse, which would be the better choice in my opinion.

Cutlass + Accuracy Corrector + EM + Mine of choice

29 or 30 pts

I've found this to be a very good ship, able to provide early game reliable shots and close against an ace with the use of Mines (using boost to position the round before). Trust me when I say AccC is well worth it on a mine dropping Punisher. Boost and auto 2 hits puts this ship higher in rank to me than the Tie Bomber + EM + Conner Net, which it should, since it costs 7-8 more pts with upgrades.

The problem is finding the best list for this ship. Some thoughts...

1. Mixed with Howl + 4 Obsidians is pretty solid, but the Punisher kind of sticks out as the biggest threat. I think Conner Net is a great card here. I rate this as a good application, but you're likely to lose the Punisher first and give the opponent easier to score pts, and like I said, mines make it a great closer. Conner Net CAN let you set up great places for the swarm to pounce though! Though I don't like having a clogged up field when trying to drop mines.

2. Alongside an Ace or a couple of aces. Here, the Punisher also sticks out like a sore thumb. It is easily the easiest ship to trap and kill, so it feels more sacrificial. Not a horrid spot for it, but not my favorite.

3. Alongside Tempests + AccC or ATC Tie Advanced. I really like this application. The Punisher plays like a Tempest 75% of the match anyways. All ships are pretty tanky as well. My favorite right now being:

Alozen + VI + ATC + Title

2 x Tempest + AccC + Title

Cutlass + AccC + Conner Net + Prox Mine

100pts

I'd call this a Wave 8 Imperial showcase list. The Cutlass really helps make up for having no High PS closer, since his mines are a great tool for taking out the enemy closer. Alozen actually feels playable alongside that Cutlass.

To be honest, I'd consider running:

2 x Cutlass + AccC + EM + Prox Mine

2 x Tempest + AccC + Title

100 pts

That'd be a really great list to play.

Redline is jank as far as I can tell. The ability is okay-ish, but PS7 is of dubious utility.

Deathrain is mid-meta jank. Fun. Moderately effective. Sitting in a point-bracket that belongs to people like Soontir Fel & Darth Vader makes her only marginally relevant to the metagame.

Black-Eight is mid meta. PS4 gets you everything you need and nothing you don't.

Cutlass may as well not exist at all. What would you even do with it? Relentless proxy mine spam? I suppose S-thread Tracer lists may breath some life into it.

Deathrain (maybe with enhanced scopes) will give folks like Soontir nightmares. Soontir+Conner Net = Dead Fel.

I have been running Vessery and Redline together (with dark curse as the third ship). The amount of firepower that those 2 ships can produce together is staggering. Ywings/Bwings go down in a single round. I've taken out an Aggressor in 2.

Both Redline and Deathrain are very dangerous in the right list.

But yah, I don't see myself running the generics.

I feel the generic Punishers suffer from 2 things

1) The same thing all low PS ordnance carriers suffer from. Getting their TL's on the target they can fire at that turn.

2) The cost. Chances are, they're only going to fire a piece of ordnance once or twice. So EM and Cluster/Concussion/Plasma whatever. But if that's all you want, just get a bomber for 5 points less. If you want more, though, you start looking at the named punishers.

I see 2 roles/loadouts for the generics.

Enhanced scopes (or AS/AC) + EM + 2 Mines (Prox + Conner)

21 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 31 (or 33 points)

You could also just get a single bomb - but then you should consider to take a Tie Bomber instead.

FCS + EM + 2 Missiles (Concussions + Clusters)

21 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 33 points

And 33 points is just a bit too much. Thats a denty Firespray. You really can't expect to get your stuff off before this thing explodes. But you want to have a decent punch in all ranges. You want to be able to chase an opponent and fire Concussions in range 3 with a focus and you want to use your FCS on close combat with Clusters.

For me thats the reason why to take Punishers.

Maybe 2 of those and a 34 points Soontir.

I'll give it a shot.

The Punisher is its own beast and deserves at least that slight respect.

Well, yes. Respect given. They look massive on the table.

Now I try to make a list with 2 of them which I could at least take to a local tournament.

Hi Starkiller, I too want to run 2 punishers, and I've had a lot of fun with the following:

Cutlass with EM, AC & Conner Net x2

Whisper with VI, FCS, ACD & Intel agent

I guess this could work out.

Maybe you want to swap AC to AS, to drop a conner before moving.

And in this list Whisper with FCS is to do the dirty work, which is fair enough.

But I imagine the Punishers to be the heavy hitters and damage workhorses and I still can't find a list that satisfy the needs of this customer.

Its always that I come beck to the Tie Bomber or the Tie Advanced.

Why you don't just swap the Cutlass to scimitars in your list?

This would free up 16 points for Backstabber or Dark Curse, which would be the better choice in my opinion.

Because accuracy correcter is a peach, and it frees you up for boosts and k-turns whenever you need them, as your attack efficiency doesn't require actions any more. I find that generic ships that want to bomb have to be able to control their distance much more than K-wings and deathrain, so the 3+boost is really great for setting up a conner. Bombers have a really interesting dial, but an AC cutlass is a far superior mine layer imo. If you're lucky, whisper's intel agent can give you a heads up for the perfect net too

Tie Bombers have BR and are faster. So I don't see why Punishers are the better minelayers, unless you use the system slot to support minelaying.

Sure, you may drop a mine and you score 2 hits with your primary, if there is something to shoot at if you focus at minelaying.

But for my taste your list is lacking firepower.

I come with big bombers and I want to be able to hit hard.

Fair enough. Basically, I like dropping mines on high-ps faces - boost lets me set that up better than BR, and AC lets me actually stand a chance of hitting anything on the round I drop 'em

Only run red line once so far but he did good tore apart a yv666 with clusters.

Main issue is ordnance still sucks and is generally not worth the trouble to use.

Only run red line once so far but he did good tore apart a yv666 with clusters.

Main issue is ordnance still sucks and is generally not worth the trouble to use.

Missiles and Torps, I mostly agree, certain one are fantastic to finish out a list and maybe shore up a weakness. Mines though, they do have a place. That being a tool for low PS ships to take on high PS arc dodgers and the like.