I think there are still advantages to not running Rogue and relying on squadron commands, mainly that you get to activate during a ship's activation and before the squadron phase when all the Rogues get to move. Sure, you can still activate a Rogue with a command or token, but if you do, you're likely greatly overpaying for that squad.

While I agree with your assessment in many ways, I think we have to remember that the rogue keyword is an option, not an obligation. It is perfectly fine to activate rogues with a squadron command, particularly if your dedicated carrier has some upgrades like flight controllers or is a corruptor. The good part is, you can fling them out of command range without any regrets, as they will stay effective on their own.

Rogue let's you fire and forget where as standard squadrons don't have that capacity.

Normal squadrons need assistance most turns to be effective so that means if I want to get the most out of them I have to be able to activate all of them several times in a game consecutively. Where as a rogue squadron can be activated once and then left to its own devices and support whee e you think you need it at the end of the turn.

I'm liking Han Solo for the ability to move last in a turn, swooping into a fighter swarm and shooting it up, and then activating first next turn, shooting up the same fighters, and possibly swooping out again.

If he had bomber, and could do that to ships, it would be awesome.

Couple of questions Re: Han, though I'm 99% sure the answers are no

1- Does Rogue actually *do* anything if he uses his ability to shoot go first?

2- With the wording on his ability, would anything allow him to drag a normal squad with him or do something else trictsy?

^- I.E. is there a reason it doesn't just copy the Rogue "move & attack" text?

Re JgzMan: Oh, though I didn't think about that, excellent point

I'm liking Han Solo for the ability to move last in a turn, swooping into a fighter swarm and shooting it up, and then activating first next turn, shooting up the same fighters, and possibly swooping out again.

If he had bomber, and could do that to ships, it would be awesome.

He throws 4 dice even without bomber so it is still worth it.

I'm liking Han Solo for the ability to move last in a turn, swooping into a fighter swarm and shooting it up, and then activating first next turn, shooting up the same fighters, and possibly swooping out again.

If he had bomber, and could do that to ships, it would be awesome.

He throws 4 dice even without bomber so it is still worth it.

2 dice without bomber (bomber is irrelevant v squadrons)

which isn't bad at all, given Han Shoots First, it's just not great anti-ship fire for points

basically, it's a poor investment for the dice given; a great investment for securing kills that might have otherwise gotten away

Quoted the wrong post

I think he meant 4 dice in quick succession (2 in the Squadron phase, 2 at the start of the Ship Phase), before ships have had a chance to move or shoot.

I think he meant 4 dice in quick succession (2 in the Squadron phase, 2 at the start of the Ship Phase), before ships have had a chance to move or shoot.

nono, his ability and Rogue don't stack

once he's activated, you hit the slider and he's done for the round

the combination of the two seemingly redundant abilities gives you a choice of which phase to activate in. Either you get the jump on the enemy or you get to wait to see if he flings any ships/squadrons in range before you pounce

you could also choose to not use his ability and involve him a squadron command (useful for things like flight controller or Yavaris)

he'd be broken as all **** if he activated twice

unless you're just talking about over 2 rounds, in which case it's still not really 4 dice

I don't mean that they stack - but that you can, on Round 1, wait to activate until the Squadron phase, swoop in, roll two dice against a ship, or four against a squadron. Then, at the start of Round 2 (which will often be immediately afterwards), shoot again then move out of danger.

I'm liking Han Solo for the ability to move last in a turn, swooping into a fighter swarm and shooting it up, and then activating first next turn, shooting up the same fighters, and possibly swooping out again.

If he had bomber, and could do that to ships, it would be awesome.

Couple of questions Re: Han, though I'm 99% sure the answers are no

1- Does Rogue actually *do* anything if he uses his ability to shoot go first?

2- With the wording on his ability, would anything allow him to drag a normal squad with him or do something else trictsy?

^- I.E. is there a reason it doesn't just copy the Rogue "move & attack" text?

Re JgzMan: Oh, though I didn't think about that, excellent point

Han let's him activate before anything, rogue let's shoot and move.

I don't mean that they stack - but that you can, on Round 1, wait to activate until the Squadron phase, swoop in, roll two dice against a ship, or four against a squadron. Then, at the start of Round 2 (which will often be immediately afterwards), shoot again then move out of danger.

Couple of questions Re: Han, though I'm 99% sure the answers are no

1- Does Rogue actually *do* anything if he uses his ability to shoot go first?

2- With the wording on his ability, would anything allow him to drag a normal squad with him or do something else trictsy?

^- I.E. is there a reason it doesn't just copy the Rogue "move & attack" text?

Re JgzMan: Oh, though I didn't think about that, excellent point

ans ability and the rogue keyword are completely different.

Han let's him activate before anything, rogue let's shoot and move.

I don't mean that they stack - but that you can, on Round 1, wait to activate until the Squadron phase, swoop in, roll two dice against a ship, or four against a squadron. Then, at the start of Round 2 (which will often be immediately afterwards), shoot again then move out of danger.

Exactly how I read it

Yep. it's basically the "Demolisher Double Tap" for a squadron. Pretty sweet. He will devastate other squadrons....definitely not very efficient against ships for his points even with this trick though.

Couple of questions Re: Han, though I'm 99% sure the answers are no

1- Does Rogue actually *do* anything if he uses his ability to shoot go first?

2- With the wording on his ability, would anything allow him to drag a normal squad with him or do something else trictsy?

^- I.E. is there a reason it doesn't just copy the Rogue "move & attack" text?

Re JgzMan: Oh, though I didn't think about that, excellent point

ans ability and the rogue keyword are completely different.

Han let's him activate before anything, rogue let's shoot and move.

He activates as if a Squadron command was used.

Actually rereading them it may be possible to activate twice since the rogue keyword doesn't actually mention activating it just says to move and shoot in the squad phase...

Well, if he activates in the ship phase, his slider will be toggled come the squadron phase...

Couple of questions Re: Han, though I'm 99% sure the answers are no

1- Does Rogue actually *do* anything if he uses his ability to shoot go first?

2- With the wording on his ability, would anything allow him to drag a normal squad with him or do something else trictsy?

^- I.E. is there a reason it doesn't just copy the Rogue "move & attack" text?

Re JgzMan: Oh, though I didn't think about that, excellent point

ans ability and the rogue keyword are completely different.

Han let's him activate before anything, rogue let's shoot and move.

He activates as if a Squadron command was used.

ahhh missed that.

Actually rereading them it may be possible to activate twice since the rogue keyword doesn't actually mention activating it just says to move and shoot in the squad phase...

Couple of questions Re: Han, though I'm 99% sure the answers are no

1- Does Rogue actually *do* anything if he uses his ability to shoot go first?

2- With the wording on his ability, would anything allow him to drag a normal squad with him or do something else trictsy?

^- I.E. is there a reason it doesn't just copy the Rogue "move & attack" text?

Re JgzMan: Oh, though I didn't think about that, excellent point

ans ability and the rogue keyword are completely different.

Han let's him activate before anything, rogue let's shoot and move.

He activates as if a Squadron command was used.

ahhh missed that.

Actually rereading them it may be possible to activate twice since the rogue keyword doesn't actually mention activating it just says to move and shoot in the squad phase...

There's not going to be any activating twice, so don't get attached to that idea

Utilise the rule of common sense.

ahhh missed that.

Actually rereading them it may be possible to activate twice since the rogue keyword doesn't actually mention activating it just says to move and shoot in the squad phase...

That is an interesting observation. I doubt that it will hold up, but it is certainly interesting.

Couple of questions Re: Han, though I'm 99% sure the answers are no

1- Does Rogue actually *do* anything if he uses his ability to shoot go first?

2- With the wording on his ability, would anything allow him to drag a normal squad with him or do something else trictsy?

^- I.E. is there a reason it doesn't just copy the Rogue "move & attack" text?

Re JgzMan: Oh, though I didn't think about that, excellent point

ans ability and the rogue keyword are completely different.

Han let's him activate before anything, rogue let's shoot and move.

He activates as if a Squadron command was used.

ahhh missed that.

Actually rereading them it may be possible to activate twice since the rogue keyword doesn't actually mention activating it just says to move and shoot in the squad phase...

There's not going to be any activating twice, so don't get attached to that idea

Utilise the rule of common sense.

Then again speed 7 corruptor firesprays that shoot twice are probably to much to ask for. Lol

ahhh missed that.

Actually rereading them it may be possible to activate twice since the rogue keyword doesn't actually mention activating it just says to move and shoot in the squad phase...

That is an interesting observation. I doubt that it will hold up, but it is certainly interesting.

moving and shooting are part of the squadron's activation

Han's ability mentions activating in the ship phase because it's not the normal timing for squadron activation (and mentions "as if by a [squadron] command" to allow him to move, then shoot because rogue only works in the squadron phase)

you're still at one activation per round, Adar excepted

Here some computed efficiencies:

ASH Mod Point is the average amount of damage that is dealt to a ship per squadron point invested, modified (conservatively) for hero special abilities. As you can see B-wing and TIE Bomber are still the most efficient. Scurrg is however a nice alternative to the B, that is in fact more efficient than the Y-wing (interesting). Spray is less efficient than the Bomber, but because it has rogue, I think it will suit a purpose. Dash, and Han got bomber efficiency which is inferior to X and A-wings.

Anti-Ship Average Damage Per Point Invested

• Soontir 0,028
• Tycho 0,031
• Howlrunner 0,031
• Mauler 0,033
• YV-666 0,033
• IG-2000 0,036
• Dengar 0,038
• YT-1300 0,038
• Jan Ors 0,039
• J5K 0,042
• Hwk-290 0,042
• TIE Interceptor 0,045
• Aggressor 0,047
• YT-2400 0,047
• Vader 0,048
• Han 0,048
• Luke 0,050
• Dash 0,052
• Wedge 0,053
• Bossk 0,054
• X-wing 0,058
• Rhymer 0,063
• TIE Advanced 0,063
• Dutch 0,063
• TIE Fighter 0,063
• A-wing 0,068
• Nym 0,083
• Spray 0,083
• Y-wing 0,100
• Boba 0,106
• H-6 Scurg 0,109
• TIE Bomber 0,111
• Keyan 0,125
• B-wing 0,125

Babs out!

Could somebody assist me to better understand some of the pts values? For example the aggressor and the YT 2400 are both 16 pts, yet the former is 3 spd 5 hp where the latter is 4 spd 6 hp. Both with the exact loadout regarding batteries and AS and the rogue keyword, so apparently the counter 1 is worth 1 spd 1 HP here? Another question would be jump master 5000 and HWK 290, both 12 pts, but now the counter 2 on the hawk is offset with a single less point of speed on th HWK, and the swarm keyword on the jump master - which is of questionable use with 2 blue AS.

Not saying that something is wrong with the points, but would really like to achieve a better grasp on how FFG is pricing things pointswise.

Here some computed efficiencies:

ASH Mod Point is the average amount of damage that is dealt to a ship per squadron point invested, modified (conservatively) for hero special abilities. As you can see B-wing and TIE Bomber are still the most efficient. Scurrg is however a nice alternative to the B, that is in fact more efficient than the Y-wing (interesting). Spray is less efficient than the Bomber, but because it has rogue, I think it will suit a purpose. Dash, and Han got bomber efficiency which is inferior to X and A-wings.

Anti-Ship Average Damage Per Point Invested

• Soontir 0,028
• Tycho 0,031
• Howlrunner 0,031
• Mauler 0,033
• YV-666 0,033
• IG-2000 0,036
• Dengar 0,038
• YT-1300 0,038
• Jan Ors 0,039
• J5K 0,042
• Hwk-290 0,042
• TIE Interceptor 0,045
• Aggressor 0,047
• YT-2400 0,047
• Vader 0,048
• Han 0,048
• Luke 0,050
• Dash 0,052
• Wedge 0,053
• Bossk 0,054
• X-wing 0,058
• Rhymer 0,063
• TIE Advanced 0,063
• Dutch 0,063
• TIE Fighter 0,063
• A-wing 0,068
• Nym 0,083
• Spray 0,083
• Y-wing 0,100
• Boba 0,106
• H-6 Scurg 0,109
• TIE Bomber 0,111
• Keyan 0,125
• B-wing 0,125

Babs out!

Nice to have independent confirmation of numbers.

Here some computed efficiencies:

ASH Mod Point is the average amount of damage that is dealt to a ship per squadron point invested, modified (conservatively) for hero special abilities. As you can see B-wing and TIE Bomber are still the most efficient. Scurrg is however a nice alternative to the B, that is in fact more efficient than the Y-wing (interesting). Spray is less efficient than the Bomber, but because it has rogue, I think it will suit a purpose. Dash, and Han got bomber efficiency which is inferior to X and A-wings.

Anti-Ship Average Damage Per Point Invested

• Soontir 0,028
• Tycho 0,031
• Howlrunner 0,031
• Mauler 0,033
• YV-666 0,033
• IG-2000 0,036
• Dengar 0,038
• YT-1300 0,038
• Jan Ors 0,039
• J5K 0,042
• Hwk-290 0,042
• TIE Interceptor 0,045
• Aggressor 0,047
• YT-2400 0,047
• Vader 0,048
• Han 0,048
• Luke 0,050
• Dash 0,052
• Wedge 0,053
• Bossk 0,054
• X-wing 0,058
• Rhymer 0,063
• TIE Advanced 0,063
• Dutch 0,063
• TIE Fighter 0,063
• A-wing 0,068
• Nym 0,083
• Spray 0,083
• Y-wing 0,100
• Boba 0,106
• H-6 Scurg 0,109
• TIE Bomber 0,111
• Keyan 0,125
• B-wing 0,125

Babs out!

Interesting! Can you make an Anti-Squadron Average Damage Per Point Invested list as well?