I'm thinking this is making running a squadron free fleet rather...dicy. The penalty now can be pretty minor, but if this is accurate, means that it's a very bad tactical decision.

Dengar, Howlrunner is 36 points and 2 Interceptors is 58. That kills ALL squadrons. . . Kills them dead. . .

Devil's advocate

If combos like the new 'Dengar, Howlrunner, Interceptors' were to become common locally, I'd actually consider it a reason to take squadron-free fleets, not the opposite.

I'm looking forward to Rogues and Villains as much as anyone and love the way the rogue rule deshackles some squadrons from capital ships. However if anti-squadron squadrons become extremely powerful, one solution remains to avoid the blue dice, engagement entanglements and counter attacks entirely and load up on capitals and activations instead. The Raider has made it easier than ever to so while maintaining anti-squadron firepower.

In short:

Some of the new squadrons are terrific.

Killing Capital ships remains more important than killing Squadrons.

We have not seen the end of the competitive squadronless fleet.

The "Squadron meta" could always have been a thing and Rogue doesn't change that (just makes certain squadrons easier to access, at the cost of efficiency)

currently, the only real barrier of entry is m.o.v rules netting you a full win for ignoring squadrons and destroying all opposing ships. With more ships, and hopefully more squadrons inspiring a better understanding of the mechanics, we'll see a more varied meta

if not? well, B-wings didn't get any worse; their prey just got a little bit fatter

if not? well, B-wings didn't get any worse; their prey just got a little bit fatter

[*]Biggest possible single ship activation -- ISD + 4 TIE Bombers + Squadron Command = 4 Red, 4 Blue, 4 Black dice.

Sorry, while I agree with pretty much every point you made, I couldn't let this stand.

Edit: In other news, I plainly have no clue how to markup...

[*]Biggest possible single ship activation -- ISD + 4 TIE Bombers + Squadron Command = 4 Red, 4 Blue, 4 Black dice.

My Command Cruiser and 4 B-Wings think it's cute that you call that the biggest possible single activation...

Sorry, while I agree with pretty much every point you made, I couldn't let this stand.

Edit: In other news, I plainly have no clue how to markup...

didn't the command cruiser get a bunch of very silly sounding Y/B-wing hybrids?

He didn't include upgrades, so I didn't either, to keep it fair. Otherwise we'd be all Ackbar and EA and double arcs and... Where does it end?

The vability of Squadronless Fleets is paramount to ensuring that Anti-Squadron elements are not overly prominent.

Some of the new squadrons are terrific.

Killing Capital ships remains more important than killing Squadrons.

We have not seen the end of the competitive squadronless fleet.

The "Squadron meta" could always have been a thing and Rogue doesn't change that (just makes certain squadrons easier to access, at the cost of efficiency)

currently, the only real barrier of entry is m.o.v rules netting you a full win for ignoring squadrons and destroying all opposing ships. With more ships, and hopefully more squadrons inspiring a better understanding of the mechanics, we'll see a more varied meta

if not? well, B-wings didn't get any worse; their prey just got a little bit fatter

I think the most important way this pack impacts the meta is that it helps keeps lists honest, or at least it moves the honesty-marker closer to lists with at least some squadrons. And that means both of your points are valid, just at opposite ends of the meta-spectrum!

@MattShadowlord -- Totally agree that non-squad builds will still be viable and successful. The difference is now that building that fleet will take more consideration. A lot of the new squads with bomber or multiple battery dice are arguably more effective at punishing no-squad builds. Hell, if Boba and a couple Firesprays are allowed to bang on your ships every turn, you're going to have a bad time. Now, that's not to say you can't use non-squad lists to account for or counter that kind of play, only that you'll really have to think about it when list building as it will be more common than Yavaris + Bs (which would be the most comparable current list I think).

Speaking of Bs...

@ficklegreendice-- You are correct, the squads can totally be effective in the meta now. And continuing the example above, I think a skilled player might actually have a better time with skilled B play than someone who just tosses in some Firesprays or Boba. However, playing a list with Rogue squads is easier than playing a list with non-Rogue, granted that the non-Rogue may have a higher output/value ceiling (time will tell!). This is key, because it means we'll likely see more squads generally because they'll be more approachable. And that's not to talk down to easier lists, either. Remember, the GenCon list was originally built because it simplified and streamlined the game as much as possible, executing only Nav and Repair commands.

The point of my original "squadron meta" comment was not so much that squadrons will now be a part of the meta, as they already are, at least in some capacity. What I meant was that once you've decided to bring squads in your list, there's now another whole meta involved in choosing those squads. Currently, the most common lists that bring squads will either run Rhymerball, Y or B swarm, or one or two "insurance" squads that can delay the other two groups long enough to cut down on their efficacy and still provide some battery against non-squad builds (usually things like a single Tycho or Luke). With RnV, those groups won't be so clear cut, and there will be lots of effective squad comps. Additionally, Intel and Grit pretty much nullify the single squad tie up. So, if you want to run a list with just Tycho or no squads, you're more likely to be punished than you are today. And that's really important to the overall health of the game, because it keeps things strategic and interesting!

[*]Biggest possible single ship activation -- ISD + 4 TIE Bombers + Squadron Command = 4 Red, 4 Blue, 4 Black dice.

My Command Cruiser and 4 B-Wings think it's cute that you call that the biggest possible single activation...

Sorry, while I agree with pretty much every point you made, I couldn't let this stand.

Edit: In other news, I plainly have no clue how to markup...

Haha, yes you're totally right!

I worded that wrong on my end: I didn't mean that the ISD+Bombers was the biggest, I meant that if you're going for the biggest possible number of dice in a single ship activation, you'll want to use a squadron command, and I used the ISD as an example because it's pretty clean (50% extra dice!).

Personally, I can't wait to see someone drop a MC80 Command w/Ackbar + Hangerbay + EA + 5 Bs and watch their opponent's ship get completely rekt. Then I can turn to MC80 naysayers and be like: http://i.imgur.com/OMryaOn.jpg

anyone else think (and I realize I'm saying this without seeing it on the table) that Dash is over costed?

He didn't include upgrades, so I didn't either, to keep it fair. Otherwise we'd be all Ackbar and EA and double arcs and... Where does it end?

It ends when you start counting points and find you can afford one flagship and some squadrons and upgrades, and not much more :-)

anyone else think (and I realize I'm saying this without seeing it on the table) that Dash is over costed?

He's great, but is he better than 3 stands of TIE fighters, for the same cost? I'm not too sure.

anyone else think (and I realize I'm saying this without seeing it on the table) that Dash is over costed?

If Dash is actually 26 points, he is very overpriced. However, it's most likely that he's cheaper and we're just getting the same bad photo effect as when people thought the MC-80 was going to be in the 90's point range.

If he's 20 points for example he'll need ~2 re-rolls just to break even on his anti-squadron value compared to the basic YT-2400, and his anti-ship firepower per point would still come in at less than a tie fighter even with bomber and the upgrade to a black die. He would however be one of the only named squadrons that gets an unambiguous durability buff compared to generic version. So even at 20 points he's a solid "meh".

The big risk with Rogue is that the keyword is overpriced, like Escort, but to an even greater degree, and that this will leave these squadrons not enough relative hp to function.

For example, a Firespray has 6hp compared to a pair of Tie Bomber's 10hp for the same cost, same anti-squadron firepower, and more anti-ship firepower. Boba Fett as just 6hp for the huge 26 points he costs, the same as a 10 point Y-wing. Even if Boba Braces for half his hp over again, he still absorbs less damage per point than a B-Wing.

If Dash is actually 26 points

He's 24.

Take a look at the Jan Ors pic. You can see the bottom of Dash's card peaking out from under the bottom of the HWK-290 card.

He didn't include upgrades, so I didn't either, to keep it fair. Otherwise we'd be all Ackbar and EA and double arcs and... Where does it end?

It ends when you start counting points and find you can afford one flagship and some squadrons and upgrades, and not much more :-)

+++ By the God's! Why the B's! (396pts) +++

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (396pts) ++

+ Assault Frigate MkII (170pts) +

Assault Frigate Mark IIB (85pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Gunnery Team (7pts)]

Assault Frigate Mark IIB (85pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Gunnery Team (7pts)]

+ MC80 Cruiser (148pts) +

MC80 Command Cruiser (148pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Expanded Hangar Bay (5pts), Nav Team (4pts), •General Dodonna (20pts), •Raymus Antilles (7pts)]

+ Squadrons (78pts) +

A-Wing Squadron (11pts)

A-Wing Squadron (11pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

If Dash is actually 26 points

He's 24.

Take a look at the Jan Ors pic. You can see the bottom of Dash's card peaking out from under the bottom of the HWK-290 card.

Good job Watson! lol yeha at 24 I'm thinking not, which is sad since he is one of my favorites.

I got into a discussion on Boba on Reddit. While I like him and what he brings to the table he really is not better than 3 TIE Bombers.

He can however take down enemy fighters while in combat, something Bombers lack cohesion on

+++ By the God's! Why the B's! 1.5 (393pts) +++

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (393pts) ++

+ Assault Frigate MkII (170pts) +

Assault Frigate Mark IIB (85pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Gunnery Team (7pts)]

Assault Frigate Mark IIB (85pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Gunnery Team (7pts)]

+ MC80 Cruiser (159pts) +

MC80 Command Cruiser (159pts) [Advanced Projectors (6pts), Expanded Hangar Bay (5pts), Nav Team (4pts), •Admiral Ackbar (38pts)]

+ Squadrons (64pts) +

A-Wing Squadron (11pts)

A-Wing Squadron (11pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

B-Wing Squadron (14pts)

In this list you can substitute the A-Wings for B-Wings OR you can swap out the B-Wings and take H-6's

I got into a discussion on Boba on Reddit. While I like him and what he brings to the table he really is not better than 3 TIE Bombers.

He can however take down enemy fighters while in combat, something Bombers lack cohesion on

Indeed, he may very well be the best of the rogues.

I think the best way to think about these guys is at the margin of what gets into the list or what gets cut. For example, if you already have 3 Tie Bombers, adding another 3 could simply not be optimum. That's why I included the point comparison of Expanded Hangers plus another squadron versus the generic rogues in my previous post.

If someone is trying to fit an extra squadron into their list, it gets to the point were you start seeing hangers, Wulff, Raymus etc, and suddenly the extra points for a rogue start to show up, at least for the Imperials.

For the Rebels, Dash seems like a disaster at 24 points, I'm not really feeling Han at 26 without bomber, and the basic YT-2400 is on par with a Tie Interceptor in terms of anti-ship firepower and a Tie Advanced in terms of anti-squadron firepower. Those are the only Rebel squadrons with Rogue correct?

I don't know. To me apart from a few exceptions (Jan, yt), most of this seems too expensive. I'm interested in ship damage and nothing here comes close to the existing number efficiency that we already have.

You can bring your new insane anti squadron combos but it will perform horrifically badly against ships.

The Firespray is interesting, and may well be the easiest of these to use effectively. For the same cost as a pair of TIE Bombers, it has a very similar damage output vs ships: two blue dice together are better than separately, as the Acc prevents redirection (and Rogue means you can almost always position yourself to shoot at the weakest arc), so the expected output of 1.5 unredirectable damage doesn't compare too unfavourably to 2 redirectable damage. At 6hp instead of 5+5, it's easier to kill by fighters... but harder to kill by ships (which would be rolling against both TIEs). And in a pinch, it's a decent, if expensive, way to engage enemy bombers - after it shoots at a ship.

On the one hand, some of these upgrades are pretty cool. It will be neat to fly the Falcon from time to time.

On the other hand, I wish I didn't need a freighter babysitting my dedicated star fighters to make them more effective. It's like putting a Cessna in the air with an F22 to boost the F22's performance. It's a bit of a headscratching moment.

I just can't wait to paint these!

On the one hand, some of these upgrades are pretty cool. It will be neat to fly the Falcon from time to time.On the other hand, I wish I didn't need a freighter babysitting my dedicated star fighters to make them more effective. It's like putting a Cessna in the air with an F22 to boost the F22's performance. It's a bit of a headscratching moment.

It's more of an AWAC than a Cessna but sure. Well, E-6 prowler.