I wasn't bored in my one game against a 4TLT Y-wing list. I felt, more than I have in any other match, that I was in a race against time trying to take out Y-wings before the relentless tide of damage wiped me out. I was running an 8-TIE swarm with 4 Academies and 4 Obsidians. I didn't feel like I was doing Fourier Transforms and I didn't see any ice cream on my opponent's face. I survived with one Academy Pilot left.

The Torkil Mux angle mentioned earlier in the thread is an interesting twist that would mess with the modified swarm (PS3+) that I considered for Anti TLT duties. I'd probably switch to a Swarm Tactics build with Howlrunner and Mauler that normally allows 5 TIEs to shoot at PS8 (and 1 at PS1) or 3 at PS8 and 3 at PS7. With Mux in the mix, I could still have 5 shoot at PS7 and I would still have two to move at PS1 to potentially block.

I think you missunderstand what people mean when they say that TLTs are easily countered: They wil not be all over the place once the hype has died down. They are not as broken as the Phantom that seriously warped the play enviroment. TLTs 'unwarped' it finally. You will not face the spam list very often in a few months, so people complain too loud too early based on a few non representative games.

So in your opinion the two nationals TLTs won are somehow 'non-representative' and the top players in the respective countries just need to 'fly better' ?

I think you missunderstand what people mean when they say that TLTs are easily countered: They wil not be all over the place once the hype has died down. They are not as broken as the Phantom that seriously warped the play enviroment. TLTs 'unwarped' it finally. You will not face the spam list very often in a few months, so people complain too loud too early based on a few non representative games.

So in your opinion the two nationals TLTs won are somehow 'non-representative' and the top players in the respective countries just need to 'fly better' ?

havn't seen a single nationals running 4 tlts yet

edit edit: we have two instances of 4 TLTs placing high

first is dutch nationals http://www.xwingminiaturesgame.com/squad-list-rebels/dutch-nationals-top-8-cut/

where apparently 4 tlts took 3rd, losing to han in the finals, and another took 5th and finally another took 8th

second is spanish nationals, where we see one 4 tlt (in first place)

all results are being collected in https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/178660-2015-nationals-results/page-20

so yeah, the top players don't need to fly better because they seem to be flying pretty dang well already, especially the only tlts to reach top 8

not exactly getting terrified over this news

I think you missunderstand what people mean when they say that TLTs are easily countered: They wil not be all over the place once the hype has died down. They are not as broken as the Phantom that seriously warped the play enviroment. TLTs 'unwarped' it finally. You will not face the spam list very often in a few months, so people complain too loud too early based on a few non representative games.

So in your opinion the two nationals TLTs won are somehow 'non-representative' and the top players in the respective countries just need to 'fly better' ?

havn't seen a single nationals running 4 tlts yet

edit edit: we have two instances of TLTs placing high

first is dutch nationals http://www.xwingminiaturesgame.com/squad-list-rebels/dutch-nationals-top-8-cut/

where apparently 4 tlts took 3rd, losing to han in the finals, and another took 5th and finally another took 8th

second is spanish nationals, where we see one 4 tlt (in first place)

so yeah, the top players don't need to fly better because they seem to be flying pretty dang well already, especially the only tlts to reach top 8

not exactly getting terrified over this news

Spain and Poland were won by 4 tlt's

it's true

so we have two victories at nationals to 4 TLTs, and one where they placed 3rd @ the highest

still not getting very terrified over this news. If this were any metric of OPness, we'd have to ban r2-d2 dash & 2 b-wings first

List's winning big tournament's has the biggest impact on the overall competitive meta.

I completely agree, the difficulty curve in learning to handle TLT Ys is much lower than the Phantom's ever was.

Also re:Aequitas I can no longer tell what your position is. If we missed the point, what are you trying to say?

My position was that TLT was kinda boring to fly against. I had a good game against it flying another cheesy list (BBBBZ) because I had been asked to. I won. It just wasn't the same level of fun I have vs. other squads.

I made an additional statement in the same post that compared how people were *commenting during pre-nerf Phantom days and it somehow turned into a comparison between the TLT Y and the pre-nerf Phantom.

*essentially how people were downplaying individuals' personal experience or neglecting it altogether and retorting with things like, "learn to fly better" etc.

I think you missunderstand what people mean when they say that TLTs are easily countered: They wil not be all over the place once the hype has died down. They are not as broken as the Phantom that seriously warped the play enviroment. TLTs 'unwarped' it finally. You will not face the spam list very often in a few months, so people complain too loud too early based on a few non representative games.

So in your opinion the two nationals TLTs won are somehow 'non-representative' and the top players in the respective countries just need to 'fly better' ?

(1) The Nationals won by TLT were very early in the lifespan of the Wave 7 metagame. As I've discussed at length, I think one of the key reasons TLT makes people uncomfortable is that it is particularly effective against many of the top lists from the Wave 6 metagame... which in terms of numbers still have a lot of representation in the early Wave 7 tournaments.

(2) The Spanish Nationals only saw the TLT list in the finals due to an error. In an earlier elimination round, the TLTs actually lost to BBBBZ, but the match was counted as a win to account for an earlier paperwork error by the BBBBZ player. (Or something like that; I'm a bit hazy on the details.)

oh right

the BBBBZ player had mis-marked his obstacles on his official squad list sheet

he was penalized to the point where the TLTs overtook him

Also important, they were not dominating the top lists. I mean, sure they won. But it wasn't the only thing winning. Which is very, very important.

Diversity FTW!!

I completely agree, the difficulty curve in learning to handle TLT Ys is much lower than the Phantom's ever was.

Also re:Aequitas I can no longer tell what your position is. If we missed the point, what are you trying to say?

My position was that TLT was kinda boring to fly against. I had a good game against it flying another cheesy list (BBBBZ) because I had been asked to. I won. It just wasn't the same level of fun I have vs. other squads.

I made an additional statement in the same post that compared how people were *commenting during pre-nerf Phantom days and it somehow turned into a comparison between the TLT Y and the pre-nerf Phantom.

*essentially how people were downplaying individuals' personal experience or neglecting it altogether and retorting with things like, "learn to fly better" etc.

I get it now, thanks. I agree, 4BZ and 4YTLT seem about the same level of cheese! I can see how more diverse lists would contribute to more engaging matches, I feel much the same way.

And you're not wrong, when the Phantom came out the most common "advice" was usually "git gud" and that didn't help anything.

Git gud or go hom!

I completely agree, the difficulty curve in learning to handle TLT Ys is much lower than the Phantom's ever was.

Also re:Aequitas I can no longer tell what your position is. If we missed the point, what are you trying to say?

My position was that TLT was kinda boring to fly against. I had a good game against it flying another cheesy list (BBBBZ) because I had been asked to. I won. It just wasn't the same level of fun I have vs. other squads.

I made an additional statement in the same post that compared how people were *commenting during pre-nerf Phantom days and it somehow turned into a comparison between the TLT Y and the pre-nerf Phantom.

*essentially how people were downplaying individuals' personal experience or neglecting it altogether and retorting with things like, "learn to fly better" etc.

I get it now, thanks. I agree, 4BZ and 4YTLT seem about the same level of cheese! I can see how more diverse lists would contribute to more engaging matches, I feel much the same way.

And you're not wrong, when the Phantom came out the most common "advice" was usually "git gud" and that didn't help anything.

I think there's no piece of advice on the Internet worse than "just play better", and that's part of the reason I've tried to be very clear:

(1) There are a relatively large number of strategies, both in list-building and on the table, that can be used to fight back against TLT.

(2) TLT spam is a legitimately strong list, and it's also an approachable list for new players. There aren't a lot of lists in X-wing that are both seriously competitive and "easy" to fly, but (as with some other spam lists, like BBBBZ) I think this one is.

(3) TLT is particularly strong against the kinds of lists that have been most successful for the past year. In a way, they're actually preying on a lot of players' expertise--those players who have been the most knowledgeable and invested in the game over the past year are also most likely to have habits of list-building and play that put them at a disadvantage against TLT spam.

Setting aside a few hyperbolic pot-stirrers, I don't think a lot of people are saying that TLT is just vengeance or that the only people bothered by it are the inexperienced and the unskilled. I do think that, once we've had time for the ripples to settle, TLT will be still a prominent tool in the metagame, but it will be just one of many.

There's a difference between learning to play and adapting to a change in the meta though

As a Y-wing lover though, i find the btl-a4 title makes for a much more interesting game

Man, OP is getting a lot of flak for just expressing his opinion... He took the time to write a quality post that describes his experience - there's no need to blast him even if you disagree.

Personally, I don't find TLTs overpowered. Easy to fly? Yes. But that's not the same (see pre-nerf Phantom). They have a donut-hole, and can only be spammed on low-PS Y-wings and HWKs - both of which are are susceptible to being outmaneuvered by fast ships. As a relatively seasoned player, I don't sweat when I see an opposing seasoned player fielding 4xTLT. I do sweat when they bust out SuperDash or PTL/BB8 Poe. 4xTLT might have a low skill requirement, but it also has a relatively low skill ceiling.

With all that said, I wouldn't fly 4xTLTs against friends. Mostly because I think it takes away from the spirit of the game a tad.

What hooked me onto X-wing was that tutorial scenario dogfight - where trying to stay out of arc was part of the excitement. It's also why my group of friends generally doesn't field Chewie Leebo or any 100% turret list.

At a tournament? Well it's a tournament. You might groan at the thought of people taking 4xTLT, but it ought to be the same groan you have when people fly RAC Fel, Superdash Corran, Fat Han, BroBots, etc. Again, the skill requirement might not be the same, but you also have the advantage of knowing that it's a popular list and have had plenty of time to practice against it.

The pre-nerf phantom warped the meta because you had to build your competitive list taking it into account.

Likewise, TLT Y-wings are warping the meta because you have to build your competitive list taking it into account.

Both are/were overwhelmingly strong archetypes relative to other meta archetypes, and merely "flying better" is insufficient to counter it at the competitive level. This inherently lowers build diversity in the competitive meta, as people are forced into the straight-jacket of either flying it, or trying to fly its counter.

I have yet to see an example of TLT doing poorly in a large tournament since wave 7 was released.

The difference is that none of those other ships have a turret. The efficiency of the TLT Y-wing is off the charts relative to other turrets, granted it has a range 1 hole. Remember the Y-wing still has a primary arc at range 1 to fall back on.

I think you missunderstand what people mean when they say that TLTs are easily countered: They wil not be all over the place once the hype has died down. They are not as broken as the Phantom that seriously warped the play enviroment. TLTs 'unwarped' it finally. You will not face the spam list very often in a few months, so people complain too loud too early based on a few non representative games.

So in your opinion the two nationals TLTs won are somehow 'non-representative' and the top players in the respective countries just need to 'fly better' ?

(1) The Nationals won by TLT were very early in the lifespan of the Wave 7 metagame. As I've discussed at length, I think one of the key reasons TLT makes people uncomfortable is that it is particularly effective against many of the top lists from the Wave 6 metagame... which in terms of numbers still have a lot of representation in the early Wave 7 tournaments.

(2) The Spanish Nationals only saw the TLT list in the finals due to an error. In an earlier elimination round, the TLTs actually lost to BBBBZ, but the match was counted as a win to account for an earlier paperwork error by the BBBBZ player. (Or something like that; I'm a bit hazy on the details.)

1) This is the same argument that was made about the Phantom right after wave 4 released.

2) The 4x TLT player/list still won the rest of its elimination matches following. It's still not to be dismissed.

(2) TLT spam is a legitimately strong list, and it's also an approachable list for new players. There aren't a lot of lists in X-wing that are both seriously competitive and "easy" to fly, but (as with some other spam lists, like BBBBZ) I think this one is.

Which in my veiw is a very, very bad thing. Combining ease of use (I wouldn't go as far as to say autopilot) yet with competitive power is a sure formula for flooding the metagame.

I have yet to see an example of TLT doing poorly in a large tournament since wave 7 was released.

Could you clarify this statement? Do you mean that all TLT lists do well or that in every large tournament since its release, we've seen at least one TLT list make the top cut? I assume it is the latter.

Time will tell, but if all we see are TLT lists or their counters in the top 8, then that would be a bad thing for the game and what we saw with the phantom. I don't think we'll see quite that dichotomy with TLTs.

I'll add that simply having to consider a list in the meta is not a sign of it being meta-warping, it's simply a sign of a competitive list. It can be more than that, but not necessarily.

I'll add that simply having to consider a list in the meta is not a sign of it being meta-warping, it's simply a sign of a competitive list. It can be more than that, but not necessarily.

I agree but I believe that quad TLT is meta-warping; we've already discussed at length the shift away from 2-ship lists because of this single upgrade. I believe the adjusted Large ship scoring was the final push there.

Yes it's competitive, but moreso you must be prepared to beat it, which is a little more than merely considering it during squad building. I would not take RAC/Fel to a tournament right now because I wouldn't anticipate beating 4YTLT without help from dice. Whereas I don't discount a list because Fel himself might show up; I can adapt most squads to fighting him, so long as I have access to my full 100 points.

TLT when brought do well in the 3 major tournaments recently. Nova open, Polish Nationals, and Spanish Nationals. Not everyone neccesarily had access to TLT, but the ones that made the cut did well.

Plus the other tournament mentioned just up thread that had several TLT placing in elimination.

So in your opinion the two nationals TLTs won are somehow 'non-representative' and the top players in the respective countries just need to 'fly better' ?

(1) The Nationals won by TLT were very early in the lifespan of the Wave 7 metagame. As I've discussed at length, I think one of the key reasons TLT makes people uncomfortable is that it is particularly effective against many of the top lists from the Wave 6 metagame... which in terms of numbers still have a lot of representation in the early Wave 7 tournaments.

(2) The Spanish Nationals only saw the TLT list in the finals due to an error. In an earlier elimination round, the TLTs actually lost to BBBBZ, but the match was counted as a win to account for an earlier paperwork error by the BBBBZ player. (Or something like that; I'm a bit hazy on the details.)

1) This is the same argument that was made about the Phantom right after wave 4 released.

2) The 4x TLT player/list still won the rest of its elimination matches following. It's still not to be dismissed.

And right after Wave 4 was released, it was the right argument to make--because the people declaring the Phantom broken were reasoning well in advance of the data.

Most people talking about TLTs right now are reasoning based on limited experience in a metagame that (as it was with the release of the Phantom) is not only unprepared for TLT but is specifically countered by it. People like KineticOperator who have more experience with it are confident that it's balanced.

It may turn out that the people raising red flags about the TLT have the right answer, but right they're in the position of someone betting on the World Cup based on the predictions of an octopus. Being right is good, but knowing why you're right is a lot more important, and one or two games is not enough to come to a well-supported conclusion.

ETA: I'm really glad Alex Davy has already said he's keeping an eye on it. I'm also on record in a couple of places saying I think a 7-point TLT would have worked. If it becomes clear as the wave continues that TLT spam is a problem, I think it should be fixed. I don't think the upgrade is in a terrible place, though, and I'm very confident that it won't narrow the metagame the way the Phantom did.

so the new player can instantly spot out the overpowered

that's some mighty fun natural talent

anyway, TLTs will be a great learning experience. The keys to defeating them are purely positioning, learning how to abuse ranges relative to all enemy ships as well as learning how to effectively navigate obstacles

these guys aren't PWTs, where it's just one uber ship ignoring all the game rules. There is a ton of positional advantage to be gained by moving according to the activations of four low PS ships rather than one jerk who can shoot at an range and change his mind on the fly.

keep at it; they're incredibly vincible

Yeah. I understand Mathematics. The language of the universe. You should learn it.

Plus I've been a game player since 1979.

I think you may be grouping up all TLT lists together. Which, while somewhat understandable when talking about a specific ship, is not necessarily something that should be done with a specific upgrade. The squad that won the Nova Open is very, very different than the 4x TLT Y-wing squad being complained about here.

It is a strong, squad, No one is denying it. I just look at the available counters that you can build with it, some of them already pretty popular (Autothrusters), and compare to the counters available to the Phantom, which was turret or adapt flying style.

And again, there is a difference between a squad winning vs a squad dominating. One isn't necesarily a problem. The other tends to be a bad sigh.

And again, there is a difference between a squad winning vs a squad dominating. One isn't necesarily a problem. The other tends to be a bad sigh.

Right! And we can look at winning or losing across a game or across a tournament, but finding out whether it's a dominating list is going to take a larger sample size.

And again, there is a difference between a squad winning vs a squad dominating. One isn't necesarily a problem. The other tends to be a bad sigh.

Right! And we can look at winning or losing across a game or across a tournament, but finding out whether it's a dominating list is going to take a larger sample size.

You can do some good analysis just from the top squads of a large tournament. There were 3 in the top 16 in Spain, I think. Hardly dominence so far. Only 1 in Nova.