So a new player turns up to your club Hobo, and you'd say "Nah, I'm not playing you, I don't like your list"?

Way to make someone feel welcome.

No I wouldn't be that blunt but I would explain why bringing a tournament list without warning to a friendly game is a faux pas.

Then I'd ask if it was alright to make a squad able to take it on.

And again I ask why should anyone be expected to play a game they won't enjoy outside a tournament?

There's the rub; nobody is forcing you to do anything. If you refuse to play TLT SWARM, that's entirely on you and everyone is going to have varying reactions to that.

It's when you start controlling the conversation and policing behavior where people might take issue with your value in any given community.

In the end, you must remember how much FUN you have playing this game at all times; during the good times and the bad times. Win or lose. Tourney-Mode or Beer-N-Pretzel-Mode. Play for fun.

Don't keep trying to redefine what "fun" may or may not mean to you.

I have PTSD and a social anxiety disorder. It's hard enough for me to get out of my house to play a game in public.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that, and I hope you have the kind of support you need. But it doesn't really have much bearing on whether TLTs are a problem.

You know it's a BS list. I've already heard the people who played at Regionals say it's an overpowered list that is going to spread across tournaments like a grassfire in August. Maybe it won't win tournaments, but it's going to throw off the 'meta' and everyone is going to have to build a list that can compete with a 4Y-TLT, because it will be ubiquitous. That's the definition of imbalance to me - it forces everyone to play a certain way.

You're making three claims, here: that people who played at Regionals (not much of a qualification) think it will be a strong list, that it will be ubiquitous, and that it will homogenize the metagame by forcing players to take a particular approach.

I'm willing to grant the first point. At least at the moment, 4 TLTs looks like a strong list. I think that's because (as I've said elsewhere) it's a relatively easy list to fly pretty well, although it takes some skill to fly it very well. I think 1-2 TLTs mixed into a list that includes other kinds of ships is going to be the better archetype, but some people will always be fond of spam builds--and after all, it's won two Nationals events already.

The second point, though, is shakier. Not all strong lists end up everywhere, especially those with obvious and prolific counters. And there are a lot of lists that push back against TLTs pretty hard, including anything with better jousting efficiency, anything with the ability to use Sensor Jammers or Autothrusters that has consistent dice modification, anything with a strong alpha strike, or anything with a reasonable amount of "regular" offense that shoots at PS3 or higher.

The metagame is currently dominated by very small lists--often just two ships--with very poor efficiency, with offense and damage mitigation oriented primarily toward other very small lists. In that environment, TLT spam looks really attractive: it attacks like a high-accuracy swarm and relies on damage soaking rather than mitigation, which means they are almost a perfect hard counter for popular lists like Chiraneau/Fel.

Leaning toward your third point, now, I agree that people will need to be aware of TLTs when they build lists--just like we now have to be aware of arc-dodgers, HLC, control lists, and regeneration effects. And as noted above, there are a lot of ways to deal with TLTs that aren't particularly specific or expensive or difficult, so they're not going to confine the metagame to a narrow canyon the way Phantoms did.

I understand Mathematics. The language of the universe. You should learn it.

Plus I've been a game player since 1979.

Take a step back. I haven't been playing games since 1979, but I have been playing X-wing since launch, and I've also done a little bit of math.

I still disagree with you. 4 TLTs currently appear to be a very strong list, but that's in part because the metagame hasn't come to terms with them yet. A lot of people are still building and flying lists rooted in the Wave 5-6 metagame, and many of those lists--especially two-ship lists--are not particularly functional in a metagame that also includes TLT.

Not going to lie, I am having some of the most fun in experimenting with the counters than anything else. StarVipers w/Authothrusters are fun. I want to test out generic Phantoms with Sensor Jammer. Palpatine in general. Poe Dameron, the boss. Luke. Tempests w/Cluster Missiles. I mean, that is in general, the state of the game right now, that is so much interesting things to try out. That is where the benefit of TLT comes. It opens things up, since Big Turret w/aces isn't as prominent.

Of course, I may be weird. I don't get overally attached to squads, so I love experimenting.

I'm trying to think of lists that can compete with the four tlt ywings

Not sure but I'm thinking the old maybe new again approach with 7-8 ship tie swarms.

I've been playing around with sensor jammer builds as well, but not sure how well they'll fair out

I try avoid duel ship builds so aggressors are out. (especially with new tournament rules)

Phantoms are squishy, but could work

My buddy who I played the tlt lists suggests maybe 4 shuttles.

He does good with them

However while building a list to compete with the tlt lists you also have to keep in mind of other lists.

Which again brings me back to tie swarms.

The second point, though, is shakier. Not all strong lists end up everywhere, especially those with obvious and prolific counters. And there are a lot of lists that push back against TLTs pretty hard, including anything with better jousting efficiency, anything with the ability to use Sensor Jammers or Autothrusters that has consistent dice modification, anything with a strong alpha strike, or anything with a reasonable amount of "regular" offense that shoots at PS3 or higher.

The lists for the UK Team Championship were announced yesterday. 32 teams of 3 are playing, each team consisting a Rebel, an Imperial and a Scum player. So that's 64 potential TLT list-users.

How many of those 64 are actually using TLTs?

Ten. 4 lists with full-on 4xTLT spam, 3 lists with 2xTLTs, and 3 lists with a single TLT carrier. And one of those TLT spam lists is my mate who didn't have time to put a list together and just needed something he could learn to fly in a bit of a hurry.

Just a data-point, obviously. And Brobots are a big part the meta over here which is probably making the TLT lists less attractive. But even so.

Because people might very well want to practise these kinds of builds, both playing with them and against them, to get a better understanding of how they work, what their weaknesses are, how they can be expected to fly etc.

That's not a reason for someone else to suffer through a game they wont enjoy though is it.

If they want to practice ask someone if they mind taking a competitive list they may face, you don't spring it on people that aint cool.

And because where would such an attitude end, Hobo? With your own, personal preferences? You'll only play against 100 point lists that you personally deem "acceptable" to play against?

So in your view wanting a fun match where both sides have a roughly equal chance to win is a bad thing? I don't want to believe that's your actual view but that's how it's coming across to me.

It's a game it's meant to be fun for all parties involved so why are you saying someone should just play even though they know for a fact they wont enjoy it really confuses me.

It's a games night there are other people to play so why play a game you wont enjoy and could ruin your entire evening when you can just play someone else.

At the end of the day there is nothing inherently wrong, unreasonable or unsportsmanlike about fielding a 4 x TLT Y-Wing list - or ANY competitive list, for that matter - outside of a competitive environment. It's a perfectly valid 100 point list, and not even a particularly powerful one for that matter.

If you forewarn people that your bringing a competitive list there's no issue, if you spring it on someone who's just made a fun list not designed to face the meta that only ends up with people being upset.

No one likes being steam rolled, but being steam rolled before the first die is cast is even worse.

BBBBZ should be as good as 4 shuttles. BTL-A4 Ion Warthogs are strong and stand a good chance to everything else when you add R3-A2 to one of them. Something like this: https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v3!s!9:0,-1,-1,2:21:-1:;9:0,-1,-1,2:21:-1:;9:0,-1,-1,2:21:-1:;6:135,-1,-1,69:21:-1:The best thing is, though, that you don't have to specificaly build against them when your squad has a solid basis. I beat them with a minelaying K-Wing, 2 naked B-Wings and a TLT Y-Wing of my own.

I'm not going to lie, I just don't see how a game of X-wing cannot be fun. Unless I am playing an *******, I always have fun. Even if I'm losing (WHY CAN'T YOU GET OFF THE ASTEROID IGGY!!!!). I have yet to experience enough frustration with how I am playing or what I am playing against to not have fun with this game.

I didn't say anything about Han & Corran; I didn't say I would be rude.

No one said you did, or that you would be.

I don't play tournament-competetive lists. It's my rule.

That's entirely up to you. Not everyone has such rules, though. In fact, quite a large percentage of players will play to be as competitive as possible; no one enjoys losing, games, and judging by your subsequent comments, you're no different. Whether you play competitively or not, you still like to win and dislike losing. So I ask again - where does the list policing end? Does it end with 2 x TLT Y-Wing lists only, or will you refuse to play other lists that you consider to be too competitive as well?

I have PTSD and a social anxiety disorder. It's hard enough for me to get out of my house to play a game in public. it's harder still to lose because everyone else is understandably better than I by virtue of time and experience.

I'm very sorry to hear about that. Not much else to say there.

But to show up and play against a cruise control pew-pew list is only going to make me angry at the guy on the other side of the table who (as I view the universe) is only there to get a victory in the least thoughtful and challenging way possible.

People play lists for a number of reasons, winning is one of them, learning game mechanics, is another. Plenty of people will want to play with or against TLT lists in a casual setting so they know what to expect in a competitive setting. That doesn't make them bad people, and it doesn't mean you can't have fun while playing them. If anything, you too could benefit from the experience.

I appreciate the references to what kind of person I am. Reminds me of the Games Workshop community. You know it's a BS list. I've already heard the people who played at Regionals say it's an overpowered list that is going to spread across tournaments like a grassfire in August. Maybe it won't win tournaments, but it's going to throw off the 'meta' and everyone is going to have to build a list that can compete with a 4Y-TLT, because it will be ubiquitous. That's the definition of imbalance to me - it forces everyone to play a certain way.

No references were made to "what kind of person you are", but if you feel slighted in any way then I apologise.

As for 4 x TLT Y-Wings being a BS list however... no. As stated earlier, it's a perfectly valid list, it's not overpowered, it's not "instant win mode", it has a wide range of glaring weaknesses and if anything is little more than a fad or flavour of the month.

It causes serious problems for certain lists. It is OK on average against some, and completely hopeless against others. That's not "the definition of imbalance" - quite the opposite, in fact.

So in your view wanting a fun match where both sides have a roughly equal chance to win is a bad thing? I don't want to believe that's your actual view but that's how it's coming across to me.

It's a game it's meant to be fun for all parties involved so why are you saying someone should just play even though they know for a fact they wont enjoy it really confuses me.

It's a games night there are other people to play so why play a game you wont enjoy and could ruin your entire evening when you can just play someone else.

No, in my view you go into each game as it comes with an open mind and a willingness to play and have fun, regardless of what your opponent is fielding. If your expectation of fun and enjoyment is based entirely (or even partially) on what your opponent is taking, and you pre-judge the experience accordingly, then you're doing something wrong and are actively hampering your own (and their) enjoyment.

I've played plenty of games where I've thought I'd be on a hiding to nothing before the match started. Pretty much all of them have still been fun, some absolutely hilarious, and I've learned a lot about the way the game is played in the process.

Pretty much any seriously considered 100 point list should be able to compete with any other 100 point list, whether it's a net list or competitively tailored or not. There are obviously going be exceptions to this very general rule, but I doubt many players are going to go out and pick a Rebel Operative swarm for anything other than the most casual of experiences. The vast majority of casual players will pick ships and upgrades they like, which they think could be fun to fly AND which they feel can potentially also be competitive and have a good chance of winning.

At the end of the day, this is X-Wing. You play 100 point games, with ships with (for the most part) well balanced costs, abilities and upgrades. This isn't Age of Sigmar, Hobojebus. Or even 40K for that matter. Stop trying to pretend it is.

I'm not going to lie, I just don't see how a game of X-wing cannot be fun. Unless I am playing an *******, I always have fun. Even if I'm losing (WHY CAN'T YOU GET OFF THE ASTEROID IGGY!!!!). I have yet to experience enough frustration with how I am playing or what I am playing against to not have fun with this game.

The very day the cr-90 arrived my friend put 3PO on chewie, what resulted was the most painful slow and least fun game I've ever played and I'm not just talking about x-wing I mean any game I've played in the last 20 years.

And I won that game but I got no joy from it just relief it was over.

It replaced the first game of apocalypse as my worst gaming experience.

so the new player can instantly spot out the overpowered

that's some mighty fun natural talent

anyway, TLTs will be a great learning experience. The keys to defeating them are purely positioning, learning how to abuse ranges relative to all enemy ships as well as learning how to effectively navigate obstacles

these guys aren't PWTs, where it's just one uber ship ignoring all the game rules. There is a ton of positional advantage to be gained by moving according to the activations of four low PS ships rather than one jerk who can shoot at an range and change his mind on the fly.

keep at it; they're incredibly vincible

Yeah. I understand Mathematics. The language of the universe. You should learn it.

Plus I've been a game player since 1979.

Because people might very well want to practise these kinds of builds, both playing with them and against them, to get a better understanding of how they work, what their weaknesses are, how they can be expected to fly etc.

That's not a reason for someone else to suffer through a game they wont enjoy though is it.

If they want to practice ask someone if they mind taking a competitive list they may face, you don't spring it on people that aint cool.

And because where would such an attitude end, Hobo? With your own, personal preferences? You'll only play against 100 point lists that you personally deem "acceptable" to play against?

So in your view wanting a fun match where both sides have a roughly equal chance to win is a bad thing? I don't want to believe that's your actual view but that's how it's coming across to me.

It's a game it's meant to be fun for all parties involved so why are you saying someone should just play even though they know for a fact they wont enjoy it really confuses me.

It's a games night there are other people to play so why play a game you wont enjoy and could ruin your entire evening when you can just play someone else.

At the end of the day there is nothing inherently wrong, unreasonable or unsportsmanlike about fielding a 4 x TLT Y-Wing list - or ANY competitive list, for that matter - outside of a competitive environment. It's a perfectly valid 100 point list, and not even a particularly powerful one for that matter.

If you forewarn people that your bringing a competitive list there's no issue, if you spring it on someone who's just made a fun list not designed to face the meta that only ends up with people being upset.

No one likes being steam rolled, but being steam rolled before the first die is cast is even worse.

It is my opinion that you are the one who has to do the disclosure there, not the other way around. I like to play unusual lists (I guess my TF2 experience draws me towards unusual things...), but I always build them to tournament standart. I go at list building with the mindset being "Oh, that gimmick is neat, how can I make that competetive". If my opponent also does something non standart? Fantastic. If he brings a net list? Just as good, I hope my theories have been accurate.

One time playing quad TLT I opened with a 1 bank towards the board edge, and my opponent rushed his A-Wings forward. My next maneuver with them was a 4 K turn, which drew him into a chase. XD

Since he had to turn he couldn't chase me close enough to get in any croissants.

Sometimes it's best to peel off and reengage later, or slow roll and watch as the Y-Wings ahead of you blast off halfway across the map with a green 3 speed while you hang back.

Should I have kept playing 40k even though I wasn't enjoying it anymore?

There's a huge difference between stopping playing a game altogether and refusing to play an individual because you don't like your chances against their list.

And again I ask why should anyone be expected to play a game they won't enjoy outside a tournament?

Because people might very well want to practise these kinds of builds, both playing with them and against them, to get a better understanding of how they work, what their weaknesses are, how they can be expected to fly etc.

And because where would such an attitude end, Hobo? With your own, personal preferences? You'll only play against 100 point lists that you personally deem "acceptable" to play against?

New Guy: "Hi, I'm new here. Want a game? I've got a 4 X TLT Y-Wing list."

Hobojebus: "No, I don't want to play against that."

New Guy: "Er... OK... I've got Han Solo and Corran Horn?"

Hobojebus: "No, I don't want to play against that."

New Guy: "Er... well I've only brought what I was planning to play with... I guess I could mix them up and go Y-Wing, E-Wing and an Outer Rim Smuggler?"

Hobojebus: "Oh, go on then. I'm playing BBBBX, by the way."

At the end of the day there is nothing inherently wrong, unreasonable or unsportsmanlike about fielding a 4 x TLT Y-Wing list - or ANY competitive list, for that matter - outside of a competitive environment. It's a perfectly valid 100 point list, and not even a particularly powerful one for that matter.

But if someone is going to sulk about facing it to the point they refuse to play, then chances are they're not going to be a particularly pleasant opponent.

I didn't say anything about Han & Corran; I didn't say I would be rude. I don't play tournament-competetive lists. It's my rule.

I have PTSD and a social anxiety disorder. It's hard enough for me to get out of my house to play a game in public. it's harder still to lose because everyone else is understandably better than I by virtue of time and experience. But to show up and play against a cruise control pew-pew list is only going to make me angry at the guy on the other side of the table who (as I view the universe) is only there to get a victory in the least thoughtful and challenging way possible.

I appreciate the references to what kind of person I am. Reminds me of the Games Workshop community.

You know it's a BS list. I've already heard the people who played at Regionals say it's an overpowered list that is going to spread across tournaments like a grassfire in August. Maybe it won't win tournaments, but it's going to throw off the 'meta' and everyone is going to have to build a list that can compete with a 4Y-TLT, because it will be ubiquitous. That's the definition of imbalance to me - it forces everyone to play a certain way.

2.)What, as if having to account for a 9 PS boosting turret with a god **** TIE Fighter dial doesn't force anyone to play a certain way? Or having to account for a Super Corran? Yes, TLT forces the meta to change but what it encourages you to play are things that are better for the game's meta. Like mid PS bids.

The thing about the Fat Falcon was, although it was allegedly a slog to play against, for the player flying it it looked like it was a pretty joyous Millenium Falcon experience, boosting at the last second to dodge an arc like you're flying through the DS II's superstructure.

I have yet to hear a single person say they enjoy playing TLT spam. It may die out because its players die of boredom.

If it becomes a problem the designers'll deal with it though. Easiest way I can see to do that is to make it a tournament Unique. Lone TLTs are pretty neat.

So I ended up facing 4YTLT+R4Agro for the first time while flying BBBBZ and winning by a single hull point.

My buddy and I were curious as to how the game would shake out as I had never played against it before and he was wondering how 4YTLT would face against other cheese lists. After about an hour, the final shot came from range 3, a small gamble I took choosing to focus instead of barrel rolling into range 2.

I normally don't fly Meta lists so I found this game to be fun and boring simultaneously. It was fun to try and figure out where the Y's were going and then successfully splitting them up (really good rock placement) in order to hunt them down. It was also boring/agonizing because I didn't really need to roll agility dice, I just had to remove shields or draw damage cards, almost as if the B-wing's total HP was just an hour glass, slowly emptying to nothing. I can see how some players who are good enough to understand positioning can be both for and against this squad as positioning plays a big role in playing and fighting this squad.

As a side note: After reading through the whole thread and the comments, I cannot help but see the similarities between 4YTLT supporters and pre-nerf Phantom supporters when I read through some of the responses they have to players who dislike the list or having to face it without building specifically to counter it. I find it odd that the same, "learn to fly better" response is always brought up, almost accusing the disgruntled opponents of flying terribly so they can whine about it on the forums. I think it is safe to say, across all of the X-wing mediums (BGG, Reddit, TC, etc.) that there is an underlying discomfort for how this squad plays and that it spans all of the skill levels for anyone who has been playing for any amount of time and assuming that someone is inexperienced just because they don't like this cheesy squad is the stuff of non-sense.

the parallel between 4 tlt and pre-errata phantom is bull

every ship accused of being OP merits the same response

that's not just pre-errata fat phantom,but also super dash, fat PWTs, corran horn, Soontir, Vader, BBBBz...the list goes on and on when some errant clairvoyant deems fit to declare something they do not understand overpowered

TLT is new and objectively able to be outplayed so it's no surprise that claims of OP result from a lack of understanding than any actual broken mechanic from the poor Ys

a brief comparison with the phantom quickly debunks any similarities

*PS 2 versus 9

*zero post maneuver movements, as opposed to de-cloak (pre-errata) and roll

*range limited, max 2 damage gun on 1 agility versus 4 red dice gun (5 dice at range one) on a 4 agility platform

*slow, fragile ship with no defensive tech versus a 4 agility + focus (ability) 40 point minimum glut of m.o.v

trying to disengage from any constructive criticism because it reminds one of an old meta boogyman, as well as try to disengage from any valuable experience that could be gained from playing against the list, just reeks of excuse-making

besides, we've had objectively worse N.P.E from fat PWTs for years now and they're apparently "fine"

play against the TLTs and kill them. Unlike the phantom, their counters are not just "fat PWT" or "PS 10 stress." Their counters are good play, aided by anything that can clock in at over PS 2.

As a side note: After reading through the whole thread and the comments, I cannot help but see the similarities between 4YTLT supporters and pre-nerf Phantom supporters when I read through some of the responses they have to players who dislike the list or having to face it without building specifically to counter it. I find it odd that the same, "learn to fly better" response is always brought up, almost accusing the disgruntled opponents of flying terribly so they can whine about it on the forums. I think it is safe to say, across all of the X-wing mediums (BGG, Reddit, TC, etc.) that there is an underlying discomfort for how this squad plays and that it spans all of the skill levels for anyone who has been playing for any amount of time and assuming that someone is inexperienced just because they don't like this cheesy squad is the stuff of non-sense.

Well alright, I'll give you ParaGoomba Slayer.

The parallel is not between the actual ships themselves, just the ridiculous responses some people give to other players who don't enjoy playing with/against the list. ("fly better", "build to counter this specifically", etc). It's pretty obvious that the Y-wing is most definitely not the Phantom no matter any way you look at it.

Explaining the exact differences between the pre-nerf Phantom and the TLTY out to me is exactly what I was referring to when I was discussing the "learn to fly better" type comments that happen in threads like this, usually without any regard for knowing actual player ability or knowledge of actual time spent playing this game.

My observation of the comments section was a side note to my first experience facing this cheese.

I feel like I made that pretty clear.

I also don't need a primer on how pre-Nerf Phantoms work. I can assure you that I handled my own during that idiocy through trial and error flying what I liked and slowly developing it into something that people generally feared.

The parallel is not between the actual ships themselves, just the ridiculous responses some people give to other players who don't enjoy playing with/against the list. ("fly better", "build to counter this specifically", etc). It's pretty obvious that the Y-wing is most definitely not the Phantom no matter any way you look at it.

Explaining the exact differences between the pre-nerf Phantom and the TLTY out to me is exactly what I was referring to when I was discussing the "learn to fly better" type comments that happen in threads like this, usually without any regard for knowing actual player ability or knowledge of actual time spent playing this game.

My observation of the comments section was a side note to my first experience facing this cheese.

I feel like I made that pretty clear.

I also don't need a primer on how pre-Nerf Phantoms work. I can assure you that I handled my own during that idiocy through trial and error flying what I liked and slowly developing it into something that people generally feared.

I think you missunderstand what people mean when they say that TLTs are easily countered: They wil not be all over the place once the hype has died down. They are not as broken as the Phantom that seriously warped the play enviroment. TLTs 'unwarped' it finally. You will not face the spam list very often in a few months, so people complain too loud too early based on a few non representative games.

I think they're more comparable than you're giving due. In both cases the response is generally going to be to suggest an adaptation to the new skill set; blocking Phantoms is just like singling out TLT Ys or getting into their dead zone. Both quite feasible by lots of ships.

The main difference was the impact on the competitive metagame. Prenerf Phantoms drove Pilot Skill to 9+ and made for a very stale tournament scene. 4YTLT doesn't have that issue since it's handily countered by plenty of things, and most other things can stand a chance. A 60/40 or so 2-ship list does not have the best odds, which is causing the shakeup right now. That's all.

You obviously know what's going on and appreciate the different lists but I think gaining experience with and against TLTs is still the best recourse over crying foul. They're not overpowered in the slightest, they're just consistent. Consistency is hard to find in this game, so it gets picked up rapidly when available.

*screams in Charlie Brown: AAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!

I think they're more comparable than you're giving due. In both cases the response is generally going to be to suggest an adaptation to the new skill set; blocking Phantoms is just like singling out TLT Ys or getting into their dead zone. Both quite feasible by lots of ships.

.

thing is that the pre-nerf phantom was far more difficult to block than any TLT Y spam

that choice of 3 potential positions required at least 3 blockers, one less per obstacle involved ofc

a Y doesn't even need to be blocked. Dive right into range 1 and it can't shoot you (or shoot you well), or keep your distance from an opponent expecting a doughtnuthole dive and concentrate fire while only facing a max 2 damage in return

the pressure is far more on your opponent to act with Ys than it ever was with phantoms

I completely agree, the difficulty curve in learning to handle TLT Ys is much lower than the Phantom's ever was.

Also re:Aequitas I can no longer tell what your position is. If we missed the point, what are you trying to say?