I've also repeatedly heard from players that you're almost guaranteed to beat a TLT list if you can kill one before they have a chance to fire (i.e. have a very strong alpha strike, like ordinance/swarm list with initiative bid). After that, the same math that makes them so powerful "turns" the other way and they do not have the firepower to overwhelm your list before they go down.

Yup.

Take a 4+ ship list with PS advantage (invariably anything PS3+ when facing a 4 x TLT Y-Wing list) and a reliable method of dealing damage and/or exploiting the donut hole.

You then deploy last, move last, shoot first, and could potentially wipe a Y-Wing before it even gets the chance to fire. Extreme examples:

Green Squadron Pilot - Push the Limit, Proton Rockets x 4

Black Sun Ace - Crackshot, Inertial Dampners x 4

Black Sun Soldier - Homing Missiles, Glitterstim x 5

Mauler Mithel

Backstabber

Obsidian Squadron Pilot x 5

Avenger Squadron Pilot x 5

Hell, even facing

Dagger Squadron Pilot - Fire Control System x 2

Red Squadron Pilot - R2 Astromech x 2

Will give 4 x TLT Y-Wing pilots kittens

Ya, I think the good old fashion tie swarm maybe the way to go.

I'm a new player. If another new player shows up across the table with a 4x TLT list, I won't play against that list.

That's a pretty poor attitude.

Not really why should he play a match he knows he won't enjoy? Two of my friends quit playing magic because a third brought decks far above their ability and it put them off.

Should I have kept playing 40k even though I wasn't enjoying it anymore?

If he's not playing in a tournament he absolutely has the right to refuse a game as long as he's not a **** about it.

So a new player turns up to your club Hobo, and you'd say "Nah, I'm not playing you, I don't like your list"?

Way to make someone feel welcome.

I'm fairly sure my list (punisher 2 named ties, advanced x1) which i made in the punisher thoughts thread would just eat up a y-wing TLT squad.

So a new player turns up to your club Hobo, and you'd say "Nah, I'm not playing you, I don't like your list"?

Way to make someone feel welcome.

No I wouldn't be that blunt but I would explain why bringing a tournament list without warning to a friendly game is a faux pas.

Then I'd ask if it was alright to make a squad able to take it on.

And again I ask why should anyone be expected to play a game they won't enjoy outside a tournament?

3.) I see you mentioned Soontir Fel running out of tokens and succumbing to 8 attacks. Either your opponent was running Soontir Deci and fully deserved the NPE, or he was flying something else with Soontir and still deserves the NPE for being unimaginative and being part of the crowd that perpetuates 70% of Imperial squads having Soontir.

I'm trying to figure out the right mixed list to use and overcome TLT spam, and I've got plenty of ideas, but so far it's pretty straightforward to take even PS2 Golds and make sure we can only engage 2v2 on first engagement. The best complement I've found so far has been two FCS Dagger B-Wings, but there's a lot of other options. Even if the B-Wings don't engage in first contact, and it's just the two pairs of Y-Wings shooting at each other, you're both likely to deal 3-4 damage, and then your Daggers can polish off that one Y next turn while your damaged one pulls a Biggs manoeuvre. The three remaining Ys can't hope to take out a B or Y in a single turn, and then you just pile on the damage. Even with just a Focus each, two Range 1 shots from B-Wings will solidly throttle a Y-Wing, and your own TLTs are basically just gravy.

I'm trying to figure out the right mixed list to use and overcome TLT spam, and I've got plenty of ideas, but so far it's pretty straightforward to take even PS2 Golds and make sure we can only engage 2v2 on first engagement. The best complement I've found so far has been two FCS Dagger B-Wings, but there's a lot of other options. Even if the B-Wings don't engage in first contact, and it's just the two pairs of Y-Wings shooting at each other, you're both likely to deal 3-4 damage, and then your Daggers can polish off that one Y next turn while your damaged one pulls a Biggs manoeuvre. The three remaining Ys can't hope to take out a B or Y in a single turn, and then you just pile on the damage. Even with just a Focus each, two Range 1 shots from B-Wings will solidly throttle a Y-Wing, and your own TLTs are basically just gravy.

Counter four tlt y-wing's with four tie advanced with AC and cluster missiles, you will do no less than 16 hits and could do more, on one agility the chances are you could kill two y-wing's in the first turn of shooting even though they still get to shoot back at best they kill one advanced.

Next turn you do six damage he might do four, third turn he's down to one ship you still have two both taking defensive actions.

Surely in that situation the 4xTLT list will be flying away and trying to kite you, though? B-Wings will have a bugger of a time trying to catch Y-Wings that don't want to be caught.

You're absolutely correct but if you put the B-Wings into the centre of the map, even the Unhinged Astro can't run forever. And if the Y-Wings are running away, the Bs have an easier time keeping them in-arc, and even at Range 3 a TL/F 3-dice attack does just fine against a Y-Wing at a time. Plus, the PS4 Bs can Barrel Roll to control range a little better anyway. That came in pretty handy in a match last night actually. If the 4YTLT wants to engage they have to come at me, and I want to do my best to control that first engagement. If they just run away, they've more or less handed me the power to catch up eventually.

I mean, easier said than done, but two B-Wings in the centre of the board will happily spin in place until it's time to pounce.

I'm trying to figure out the right mixed list to use and overcome TLT spam, and I've got plenty of ideas, but so far it's pretty straightforward to take even PS2 Golds and make sure we can only engage 2v2 on first engagement. The best complement I've found so far has been two FCS Dagger B-Wings, but there's a lot of other options. Even if the B-Wings don't engage in first contact, and it's just the two pairs of Y-Wings shooting at each other, you're both likely to deal 3-4 damage, and then your Daggers can polish off that one Y next turn while your damaged one pulls a Biggs manoeuvre. The three remaining Ys can't hope to take out a B or Y in a single turn, and then you just pile on the damage. Even with just a Focus each, two Range 1 shots from B-Wings will solidly throttle a Y-Wing, and your own TLTs are basically just gravy.

Surely in that situation the 4xTLT list will be flying away and trying to kite you, though? B-Wings will have a bugger of a time trying to catch Y-Wings that don't want to be caught.

But that sounds suspiciously like tactics and thoughtful play, which I've just been repeatedly assured aren't necessary with a TLT list. Surely they can still win by just flying straight at Tsiegtiez in formation...?

But that sounds suspiciously like tactics and thoughtful play, which I've just been repeatedly assured aren't necessary with a TLT list. Surely they can still win by just flying straight at Tsiegtiez in formation...?

Right? Madness. Cats and dogs living together, etc.

It's hard to take a Y-Wing and approach a B-Wing while somehow avoiding its firing arc; Unhinged or no, the Y-Wing really needs Boost or Barrel Roll to make that happen because it just can't move far enough. The B-Wing can also slow-roll to exacerbate the situation. You're almost better off trying to spread out and focus fire one B-Wing, but I'm not sure the best way for the 4YTLT to do that. A pair of TLT/RecSpec Rebel Ops would almost be the better option just by hoping to deflect damage, but the loss of HP might not be worth it, and they have an even worse dial.

Hm.

I mean, easier said than done, but two B-Wings in the centre of the board will happily spin in place until it's time to pounce.

I mean, easier said than done, but two B-Wings in the centre of the board will happily spin in place until it's time to pounce.

This is the last time I agree to fly alongside Excited Welsh Terrier Squadron.

Just be careful, they get unpredictable when you take them against Boba Vet.

Counter four tlt y-wing's with four tie advanced with AC and cluster missiles, you will do no less than 16 hits and could do more, on one agility the chances are you could kill two y-wing's in the first turn of shooting even though they still get to shoot back at best they kill one advanced.

Next turn you do six damage he might do four, third turn he's down to one ship you still have two both taking defensive actions.

1) Clusters only work at range 1-2. Yes, TIE-Advanced are fast but it's still not trivial to arrange for your initial engagement with a Y-Wing formation to get all four Tempests inside Range 2 of the same Y-Wing, particularly since your entire list is built around one trick (admittedly, a pretty good trick!) so your opponent knows exactly what they need to avoid (yes yes blah blah autopilot list etc).

2) Clusters need a Target Lock to fire. So you can't switch targets to a second Y-Wing if you get (extraordinarily) lucky and down the first with two Cluster Missiles. So it's not true to say that the "chances are you could kill two Y-Wings in the first turn of shooting". The chances of killing two are basically zero. If you get all your Clusters off, you'll definitely kill one Y-Wing and probably do a little damage with your primary guns on a second.

3) Because you needed to take Target Lock to get your Cluster Missiles away, for the first round of shooting your Tempests have no actions on defence and so are eating 8 3-dice attacks (about half of which are likely to be modified) against 3 unmodified green dice. That's not terrible! It's not great either. You'll probably expect to eat about 4-5 damage in that situation, which is right on the ragged edge of losing a ship. And, lest we forget, that's in an ideal scenario where you got everyone into R2 for the first round of shooting despite the Tempests' not-brilliant dial.

4) So chances are in the second round of shooting onward it's an equal number of TLTs vs. an equal number of AC Tempests, and the Tempests' damage potential drops off a cliff after the alpha strike. Both ships probably have about the same expected damage on the other, only the Ys have half-again as many hit points. Don't get me wrong, that's totally winnable for the Advanced if they can make good use of the doughnut hole and whathaveyou, but it's still a tough row to hoe.

Counter four tlt y-wing's with four tie advanced with AC and cluster missiles, you will do no less than 16 hits and could do more, on one agility the chances are you could kill two y-wing's in the first turn of shooting even though they still get to shoot back at best they kill one advanced.

Next turn you do six damage he might do four, third turn he's down to one ship you still have two both taking defensive actions.

Let me preface this by saying I think this is a pretty good list, and Y-Wings are a great target for Accuracy Corrected Cluster Missiles. However, I think you're seriously overselling how strong this matchup is for the Tempests.

1) Clusters only work at range 1-2. Yes, TIE-Advanced are fast but it's still not trivial to arrange for your initial engagement with a Y-Wing formation to get all four Tempests inside Range 2 of the same Y-Wing, particularly since your entire list is built around one trick (admittedly, a pretty good trick!) so your opponent knows exactly what they need to avoid (yes yes blah blah autopilot list etc).

2) Clusters need a Target Lock to fire. So you can't switch targets to a second Y-Wing if you get (extraordinarily) lucky and down the first with two Cluster Missiles. So it's not true to say that the "chances are you could kill two Y-Wings in the first turn of shooting". The chances of killing two are basically zero. If you get all your Clusters off, you'll definitely kill one Y-Wing and probably do a little damage with your primary guns on a second.

3) Because you needed to take Target Lock to get your Cluster Missiles away, for the first round of shooting your Tempests have no actions on defence and so are eating 8 3-dice attacks (about half of which are likely to be modified) against 3 unmodified green dice. That's not terrible! It's not great either. You'll probably expect to eat about 4-5 damage in that situation, which is right on the ragged edge of losing a ship. And, lest we forget, that's in an ideal scenario where you got everyone into R2 for the first round of shooting despite the Tempests' not-brilliant dial.

4) So chances are in the second round of shooting onward it's an equal number of TLTs vs. an equal number of AC Tempests, and the Tempests' damage potential drops off a cliff after the alpha strike. Both ships probably have about the same expected damage on the other, only the Ys have half-again as many hit points. Don't get me wrong, that's totally winnable for the Advanced if they can make good use of the doughnut hole and whathaveyou, but it's still a tough row to hoe.

I love the AccC Tempests (and the Cluster Missiles are the cherry on top) but I can't run a whole list of them. Same problem I have with the 4YTLT really; two can be a great team but they need a complement, not just more of the same. I think two of them taking their stabs against a single Y-Wing (possibly bumping them to Storms to make the TL easier and avoiding Simultaneous Fire) is a solid way to start, and then 46-50 points of TIE/ln, or Soontir and a Scimitar, or Redline and an Obsidian, etc etc can help control the overall engagement and still offer solid chance of success against other lists.

Should I have kept playing 40k even though I wasn't enjoying it anymore?

There's a huge difference between stopping playing a game altogether and refusing to play an individual because you don't like your chances against their list.

And again I ask why should anyone be expected to play a game they won't enjoy outside a tournament?

Because people might very well want to practise these kinds of builds, both playing with them and against them, to get a better understanding of how they work, what their weaknesses are, how they can be expected to fly etc.

And because where would such an attitude end, Hobo? With your own, personal preferences? You'll only play against 100 point lists that you personally deem "acceptable" to play against?

New Guy: "Hi, I'm new here. Want a game? I've got a 4 X TLT Y-Wing list."

Hobojebus: "No, I don't want to play against that."

New Guy: "Er... OK... I've got Han Solo and Corran Horn?"

Hobojebus: "No, I don't want to play against that."

New Guy: "Er... well I've only brought what I was planning to play with... I guess I could mix them up and go Y-Wing, E-Wing and an Outer Rim Smuggler?"

Hobojebus: "Oh, go on then. I'm playing BBBBX, by the way."

At the end of the day there is nothing inherently wrong, unreasonable or unsportsmanlike about fielding a 4 x TLT Y-Wing list - or ANY competitive list, for that matter - outside of a competitive environment. It's a perfectly valid 100 point list, and not even a particularly powerful one for that matter.

But if someone is going to sulk about facing it to the point they refuse to play, then chances are they're not going to be a particularly pleasant opponent.

I love the AccC Tempests (and the Cluster Missiles are the cherry on top) but I can't run a whole list of them. Same problem I have with the 4YTLT really; two can be a great team but they need a complement, not just more of the same. I think two of them taking their stabs against a single Y-Wing (possibly bumping them to Storms to make the TL easier and avoiding Simultaneous Fire) is a solid way to start, and then 46-50 points of TIE/ln, or Soontir and a Scimitar, or Redline and an Obsidian, etc etc can help control the overall engagement and still offer solid chance of success against other lists.

Yeah. I onced had an ACADVIL shooting at a brobot all game and the bro's green dice just mitigating everything.

so the new player can instantly spot out the overpowered

that's some mighty fun natural talent

anyway, TLTs will be a great learning experience. The keys to defeating them are purely positioning, learning how to abuse ranges relative to all enemy ships as well as learning how to effectively navigate obstacles

these guys aren't PWTs, where it's just one uber ship ignoring all the game rules. There is a ton of positional advantage to be gained by moving according to the activations of four low PS ships rather than one jerk who can shoot at an range and change his mind on the fly.

keep at it; they're incredibly vincible

Yeah. I understand Mathematics. The language of the universe. You should learn it.

Plus I've been a game player since 1979.

Should I have kept playing 40k even though I wasn't enjoying it anymore?

There's a huge difference between stopping playing a game altogether and refusing to play an individual because you don't like your chances against their list.

And again I ask why should anyone be expected to play a game they won't enjoy outside a tournament?

Because people might very well want to practise these kinds of builds, both playing with them and against them, to get a better understanding of how they work, what their weaknesses are, how they can be expected to fly etc.

And because where would such an attitude end, Hobo? With your own, personal preferences? You'll only play against 100 point lists that you personally deem "acceptable" to play against?

New Guy: "Hi, I'm new here. Want a game? I've got a 4 X TLT Y-Wing list."

Hobojebus: "No, I don't want to play against that."

New Guy: "Er... OK... I've got Han Solo and Corran Horn?"

Hobojebus: "No, I don't want to play against that."

New Guy: "Er... well I've only brought what I was planning to play with... I guess I could mix them up and go Y-Wing, E-Wing and an Outer Rim Smuggler?"

Hobojebus: "Oh, go on then. I'm playing BBBBX, by the way."

At the end of the day there is nothing inherently wrong, unreasonable or unsportsmanlike about fielding a 4 x TLT Y-Wing list - or ANY competitive list, for that matter - outside of a competitive environment. It's a perfectly valid 100 point list, and not even a particularly powerful one for that matter.

But if someone is going to sulk about facing it to the point they refuse to play, then chances are they're not going to be a particularly pleasant opponent.

I didn't say anything about Han & Corran; I didn't say I would be rude. I don't play tournament-competetive lists. It's my rule.

I have PTSD and a social anxiety disorder. It's hard enough for me to get out of my house to play a game in public. it's harder still to lose because everyone else is understandably better than I by virtue of time and experience. But to show up and play against a cruise control pew-pew list is only going to make me angry at the guy on the other side of the table who (as I view the universe) is only there to get a victory in the least thoughtful and challenging way possible.

I appreciate the references to what kind of person I am. Reminds me of the Games Workshop community.

You know it's a BS list. I've already heard the people who played at Regionals say it's an overpowered list that is going to spread across tournaments like a grassfire in August. Maybe it won't win tournaments, but it's going to throw off the 'meta' and everyone is going to have to build a list that can compete with a 4Y-TLT, because it will be ubiquitous. That's the definition of imbalance to me - it forces everyone to play a certain way.

Counter four tlt y-wing's with four tie advanced with AC and cluster missiles, you will do no less than 16 hits and could do more, on one agility the chances are you could kill two y-wing's in the first turn of shooting even though they still get to shoot back at best they kill one advanced.

Next turn you do six damage he might do four, third turn he's down to one ship you still have two both taking defensive actions.

Let me preface this by saying I think this is a pretty good list, and Y-Wings are a great target for Accuracy Corrected Cluster Missiles. However, I think you're seriously overselling how strong this matchup is for the Tempests.

1) Clusters only work at range 1-2. Yes, TIE-Advanced are fast but it's still not trivial to arrange for your initial engagement with a Y-Wing formation to get all four Tempests inside Range 2 of the same Y-Wing, particularly since your entire list is built around one trick (admittedly, a pretty good trick!) so your opponent knows exactly what they need to avoid (yes yes blah blah autopilot list etc).

2) Clusters need a Target Lock to fire. So you can't switch targets to a second Y-Wing if you get (extraordinarily) lucky and down the first with two Cluster Missiles. So it's not true to say that the "chances are you could kill two Y-Wings in the first turn of shooting". The chances of killing two are basically zero. If you get all your Clusters off, you'll definitely kill one Y-Wing and probably do a little damage with your primary guns on a second.

3) Because you needed to take Target Lock to get your Cluster Missiles away, for the first round of shooting your Tempests have no actions on defence and so are eating 8 3-dice attacks (about half of which are likely to be modified) against 3 unmodified green dice. That's not terrible! It's not great either. You'll probably expect to eat about 4-5 damage in that situation, which is right on the ragged edge of losing a ship. And, lest we forget, that's in an ideal scenario where you got everyone into R2 for the first round of shooting despite the Tempests' not-brilliant dial.

4) So chances are in the second round of shooting onward it's an equal number of TLTs vs. an equal number of AC Tempests, and the Tempests' damage potential drops off a cliff after the alpha strike. Both ships probably have about the same expected damage on the other, only the Ys have half-again as many hit points. Don't get me wrong, that's totally winnable for the Advanced if they can make good use of the doughnut hole and whathaveyou, but it's still a tough row to hoe.

1) yep i goofed here you'd TL two targets then focus 8 hits against a y-wing, serves me right for posting just when i'm waking up

2) Well you don't have to expend all your missiles on the same target you could fire two volleys then if there's just one hit point left have a ship with a different TL fire it's lasers and finish it off.

3) Lets face it hits will get through even with tokens, but the tlt can only modify 1 of the attacks and 3 naked dice give 1.5 hits so you may dodge everything.

End of the day theoretical examples are only that and the dice can always mess up the best laid plans.

But i was trying to point out it's not an unbeatable list

I understand Mathematics. The language of the universe. You should learn it.

Plus I've been a game player since 1979.

Take a step back. I haven't been playing games since 1979, but I have been playing X-wing since launch, and I've also done a little bit of math.

I still disagree with you. 4 TLTs currently appear to be a very strong list, but that's in part because the metagame hasn't come to terms with them yet. A lot of people are still building and flying lists rooted in the Wave 5-6 metagame, and many of those lists--especially two-ship lists--are not particularly functional in a metagame that also includes TLT.

so the new player can instantly spot out the overpowered

that's some mighty fun natural talent

anyway, TLTs will be a great learning experience. The keys to defeating them are purely positioning, learning how to abuse ranges relative to all enemy ships as well as learning how to effectively navigate obstacles

these guys aren't PWTs, where it's just one uber ship ignoring all the game rules. There is a ton of positional advantage to be gained by moving according to the activations of four low PS ships rather than one jerk who can shoot at an range and change his mind on the fly.

keep at it; they're incredibly vincible

Yeah. I understand Mathematics. The language of the universe. You should learn it.

Plus I've been a game player since 1979.

Don't attempt to outmath the mathwings. [Edit: On second thought, do that, more approaches and new insights can never hurt!] TLT Y-Wings are less efficient than TIE Fighters or B-Wings, BTL-A4 Y-Wings etc. it has already been calculated by guys who usually are pretty spot on with these things.

4 TLTs 'warping' the meta is welcomed by most of the community because the meta befor it was stale as hell. TLTs are open it up, because they hard counter what was super popular while being very much beatable by things that had fallen out of favour. I also find it to be a fun list to play and to play against, I had a great time learning how to beat it with my latest tournament list, which is a pretty unusual one that I wouldn't have brought if Chewbo or double Decimators were still as much of a thing as they used to.