I think the only thing squadrons need is to be able to activate like ships. It should be a blanket "You may activate one ship, or two squadrons". Because lowering your fleet activation count in order to include squadrons is pretty painful, especially if your opponent is the first player.

This is the biggest draw back to fighters. But it's also what balances them. A few bombers can sway a battle decisively... A command dial, hit the adjacent hull zones to kill the shields, and then have ypur VSD I unload a full front barrage into the center location with ACMs and there is two hull from the ACMs plus whatever gets through shields from a potential 12 hit shot.

Yeah, but if you're stuck in the front arc at range one of a VSD with ACMs, you're pretty much toast no matter what.

Yeah, but if you're stuck in the front arc at range one of a VSD with ACMs, you're pretty much toast no matter what.

only time I've ever been one shot by any VSD was a Neb taking a close range VSD-2 shot that rolled hithit + hithit + hit + crit + acc + acc to its side

very common occurrence, I'm sure

So what you're saying then, guys, is that a close range shot from a VSD doesn't hurt at all, unless the VSD has ordered some bombers to attack first, at which point it becomes literally lethal?

And that allowing squadrons to activate like ships, two at a time, would literally break the game, making all VSDs into lethal killing machines?

Riiiiight.

If wave 2 doesn't change things, I would like them to test shoot and then move out. In the movies, it always appears the little ships are faster than the big ships in spite of the physics we have today.

So what you're saying then, guys, is that a close range shot from a VSD doesn't hurt at all, unless the VSD has ordered some bombers to attack first, at which point it becomes literally lethal?

And that allowing squadrons to activate like ships, two at a time, would literally break the game, making all VSDs into lethal killing machines?

Riiiiight.

Its the losing your defensive capacity before the attack that makes it lethal. Two bombers to each side of an AF2 can deal a potential 4 damage to each side which breaks shields and would deal 2 crits. Then the VSD volley of six dice can easily rip through whats left without the shields to redirect to. A brace against 12 hits will still break front shields and deal another crit. If it does survive, three crits on its hull will leave it very crippled.

So what you're saying then, guys, is that a close range shot from a VSD doesn't hurt at all, unless the VSD has ordered some bombers to attack first, at which point it becomes literally lethal?

And that allowing squadrons to activate like ships, two at a time, would literally break the game, making all VSDs into lethal killing machines?

Riiiiight.

Its the losing your defensive capacity before the attack that makes it lethal. Two bombers to each side of an AF2 can deal a potential 4 damage to each side which breaks shields and would deal 2 crits. Then the VSD volley of six dice can easily rip through whats left without the shields to redirect to. A brace against 12 hits will still break front shields and deal another crit. If it does survive, three crits on its hull will leave it very crippled.

What I am saying is that a VSD attack even at close range does not make me quake in fear. Combined with squadrons it can be deadly

I'd rather see the following:

Rather than to move or shoot, squadrons can shoot and then move. This won't do anything for anti-fighter combat, but will boost anti-capital ship combat by easying positioning once you have a target under fire.

Babs out!

This is the easiest and best solution, it's what my gaming group does and is well worth trying. Plus your not adding complexity

How are you guys not terrified of a VSD front arc? Seriously, I've seen at least half a dozen corvettes and nebs get one-shotted by them.

How are you guys not terrified of a VSD front arc? Seriously, I've seen at least half a dozen corvettes and nebs get one-shotted by them.

Because half the threads here turn in to these weird tough guy competitions where everyone tries to act cooler than everyone else.

So what you're saying then, guys, is that a close range shot from a VSD doesn't hurt at all, unless the VSD has ordered some bombers to attack first, at which point it becomes literally lethal?

And that allowing squadrons to activate like ships, two at a time, would literally break the game, making all VSDs into lethal killing machines?

Riiiiight.

Its the losing your defensive capacity before the attack that makes it lethal. Two bombers to each side of an AF2 can deal a potential 4 damage to each side which breaks shields and would deal 2 crits. Then the VSD volley of six dice can easily rip through whats left without the shields to redirect to. A brace against 12 hits will still break front shields and deal another crit. If it does survive, three crits on its hull will leave it very crippled.

The scenario is:

You are an Imperial player. At your disposal you have a VSD and four bomber squadrons. An enemy ship is in your front arc. The bomber squadrons are positioned so that they can attack, without needing to move.

hypothetical 1: Rules as written. The VSD issues a squadron command, and exactly what you said happens, does happen.

hypothetical 2: Squadrons can activate just like ships: The VSD issues a squadron command, and exactly what you said happens, does happen. OR, the bombers activate on their own, attacking the ship and weakening it before it can move away. Or whatever.

The point I'm trying to make here isn't about the power of a VSDs front arc (which we all know is formidable, despite some players claims) it's that allowing squadrons to activate as ships doesn't actually change the outcome of that situation much.

What it DOES do is allow players to let squadrons keep pace with a ship, and attack it before it has a chance to activate, and it also allows you to stall, activating your squadrons before your capital ships to force your opponent to reveal his hand. Spending points on squadrons is already seen as sub-par for a handful of reasons. They can't give themselves orders like ships can. They can't activate before any other ships. They can't move and attack unless ordered by another ship. At least if you allow them to activate like ships you remove one of those drawbacks.

How are you guys not terrified of a VSD front arc? Seriously, I've seen at least half a dozen corvettes and nebs get one-shotted by them.

Seeing as I generally fly Imperial, I don't fear the VSD 1 front arc because I have Tarkin and Defense Liasons to give me an immediate next activation 6 engineering points to repair with.

When I am flying rebs, I dont let my nimble CR90s get caught in the front arc... Thing is fast enough and agile enough to avoid it, turn around, and return to the fight. If my Neb is going to take that hit, it will be front arc afainst front arc, with Brace dropping that max 14 to max 7, redirect burning 4 of that damage on shields (3 of it if it had ACM), and then taking 3 to 4 hull points... They have to flip a double damagr for the crit and had to use concentrated fire and roll perfect. Squadrons activations would considerably change that to a one shotted Neb.

I have another fix.

Enforce a minimum squad point limit per list.

Now you don't have to worry as much if they are completely balanced in power versus ships, just amongst themselves.

No.

I can't emphasize this enough. No.

Why should we be forced to take squadrons? And then have those squadrons cost me games when they die from my opponents mandatory squadrons?

because fighters have always been an essential tool of warfare.

personally i don't care either way; i don't think you should be forced to play a minimum but would it really be that big of deal if you were forced to? remember that everyone would be in the same boat, so the balance will still remain

So what you're saying then, guys, is that a close range shot from a VSD doesn't hurt at all, unless the VSD has ordered some bombers to attack first, at which point it becomes literally lethal?

And that allowing squadrons to activate like ships, two at a time, would literally break the game, making all VSDs into lethal killing machines?

Riiiiight.

Its the losing your defensive capacity before the attack that makes it lethal. Two bombers to each side of an AF2 can deal a potential 4 damage to each side which breaks shields and would deal 2 crits. Then the VSD volley of six dice can easily rip through whats left without the shields to redirect to. A brace against 12 hits will still break front shields and deal another crit. If it does survive, three crits on its hull will leave it very crippled.

The scenario is:

You are an Imperial player. At your disposal you have a VSD and four bomber squadrons. An enemy ship is in your front arc. The bomber squadrons are positioned so that they can attack, without needing to move.

hypothetical 1: Rules as written. The VSD issues a squadron command, and exactly what you said happens, does happen.

hypothetical 2: Squadrons can activate just like ships: The VSD issues a squadron command, and exactly what you said happens, does happen. OR, the bombers activate on their own, attacking the ship and weakening it before it can move away. Or whatever.

The point I'm trying to make here isn't about the power of a VSDs front arc (which we all know is formidable, despite some players claims) it's that allowing squadrons to activate as ships doesn't actually change the outcome of that situation much.

What it DOES do is allow players to let squadrons keep pace with a ship, and attack it before it has a chance to activate, and it also allows you to stall, activating your squadrons before your capital ships to force your opponent to reveal his hand. Spending points on squadrons is already seen as sub-par for a handful of reasons. They can't give themselves orders like ships can. They can't activate before any other ships. They can't move and attack unless ordered by another ship. At least if you allow them to activate like ships you remove one of those drawbacks.

Squadrons activating would drastically change that situation. I would have to fire the VSD first to get the front arc. Because once i activate those first two bombers they will activate the target and move it out of the front arc. Squadron command instead gives you all 4 bombers and then the VSD in a single activation.

Fighters are only sub par if you don't know gow to utilize them to their intended purpose. You're either taking them to stop a bomber alpha strike set up or to utilize a bomber alpha strike. You don't have the points to effectively run both. Puck a tactic and focua on it.

What your statement has pretty much boiled down to is you want a cheaper way than ships to force your opponent to play to your hand. Thats the beauty of the current setup... You have limited activations and have to utilize them. Adding a ton more activations just because you can't plan around the ones you yake doesn't enrich gameplay, it dumbs it down.

Squadrons activating would drastically change that situation. I would have to fire the VSD first to get the front arc. Because once i activate those first two bombers they will activate the target and move it out of the front arc. Squadron command instead gives you all 4 bombers and then the VSD in a single activation.

You could still issue a squadron command.

Fighters are only sub par if you don't know gow to utilize them to their intended purpose. You're either taking them to stop a bomber alpha strike set up or to utilize a bomber alpha strike. You don't have the points to effectively run both. Puck a tactic and focua on it.

They are almost always outperformed by a similar points investment in ships. Ships can give themselves orders, and by extension allow other ships to give themselves order instead of using squadron commands. They can move and fire. They can fire out to range three. They add an activation to your fleet. They can repair themselves, etc. Squadrons have a few little perks like freedom of movement, spreading damage over multiple attacks to devalue defence tokens, etc so it's not all bad.

What your statement has pretty much boiled down to is you want a cheaper way than ships to force your opponent to play to your hand. Thats the beauty of the current setup... You have limited activations and have to utilize them. Adding a ton more activations just because you can't plan around the ones you yake doesn't enrich gameplay, it dumbs it down.

For one, adding more activations (or the ability to pass) doesn't dumb the game down. It simply evens the playing field. Ever played Epic? Same thing. Too light on the activations and you get outmaneuvered. For the other, I don't want cheap activations to force the enemy to reveal their hand. Points spent on ships add activations to your fleet. More activations is (almost) always better. Points spent on squadrons reduces the number of activations in your fleet. Less activations is (almost) always bad. Allowing squadrons to activate as ships (while still retaining the Squadron command) would only add flexibility, and not penalise a player for wanting to take squadrons.

To be honest, I don't care that much about it. I'm doing OK with squadrons in my fleet, and I think the tournament results seem to indicate that squadrons are doing OK so far.

I just think letting them activate with the ships would be easy, would not make them more powerful, but would add flexibility to our fleets and encourage people to play with them.

The Here They Come article suggests 14 upgrades in the Mon Cal pack. By my count they have only spoiled around 5. So unless there are a lot of repeats of wave 1 cards, there is still a lot to see for Wave 2.

The Here They Come article suggests 14 upgrades in the Mon Cal pack. By my count they have only spoiled around 5. So unless there are a lot of repeats of wave 1 cards, there is still a lot to see for Wave 2.

And now that Rogues and Villains is starting to leak, I think we can wrap this up lol.

And now that Rogues and Villains is starting to leak, I think we can wrap this up lol.

I personally think the only thing they need to do is make the bombers' anti-ship attacks stronger. This incentivizes people to pack more bombers, which will then cause more people to use fighters to intercept them. People would never want to run pure capital ships because the bombers would just wreck house.

Another post made by someone with no concept of how to properly use squadrons. Squadrons are POWERFUL tools and should not get to attack and move for free (Unless they are a rogue squadron which cost a good chunk of points.)

Squadrons attack one at a time and can seriously do damage to a capital ship. The squadron command can be much more effective than a simple concentrate fire command. Adding one die to your attack pool, which can be braced or redirected. So let's say you have a VSD with concentrate fire at point blank range shooting at a Mark II. You have 4 black 3 red dice. You stand to do a maximum damage of 14 damage. It braces down to 7 damage and then redirects to take front and side sheilds down to 0. If you had used a squadron command (expanded hangar bays) you activate 4 bombers. Each bomber shoots 1 black die. Same thing, max of rolls, for 8 damage from the bombers, 2 at a time. So if he redirects he can do it twice, brining his side sheilds down to 1 and 1 leaving 4 on his front. 4 more damage against his front sheild leaving it at 0. Now your VSD opens up with it's front arc for a maximum of 12 damage. It can brace it down to 6, but it cant redirect it now, and suffers all of it to the hull. Dead.


A.) You are not going to spend defense tokens against a single damage, meaning your sheilds are going to suffer.


B.) You do spend a defnese token against the squadron and now are leaving yourself open to the capital ship attack.

The issue isn't how squadrons work, it's that people don't understand squadron commands and do not know how to use them to their maximum efficiency

My issue with squadrons isn't their power or use...they ARE good, and well timed Squadron commands are lethal.

No, my isdsue is with the scoring and victory conditions. As long as you can table the opponent and get max scores just by killing capitals, heavy squadron lists are running a dangerous game. The actual game mechanics are perfectly fine IMO.

My issue with squadrons isn't their power or use...they ARE good, and well timed Squadron commands are lethal.

No, my isdsue is with the scoring and victory conditions. As long as you can table the opponent and get max scores just by killing capitals, heavy squadron lists are running a dangerous game. The actual game mechanics are perfectly fine IMO.

I don't know how this could be fixed though without some issues though.

Games where my Rieekan build wipes your 266 points of ships out but you got 300 of mine, we'll I won BUT I go no points because I was unable to kill your squadrons.

That's the issue that pops up in my mind.

I see what you mean. I guess there would still be a place for the dial/token. I wonder what FFG has planned. Squadrons are not exactly useless but they do not feel as useful as they should.

You are using these tiny groups of crafts to launch piddly lasers and small torpedoes at these hulking ships that are 10 times to 100 times your size if not bigger.

How effective should they be?

Effective enough to blow up a 160 KM battle station, I should think.