I buy as much as I can from my local gameing store. They give us a wonderful place to play for free, so patronizing them as much as possible is the right thing to do.

First, no one is obliged to support an LGS and especially not one they don't think gives good service.

Just so you can get an idea of why they need to charge close to retail, rather than 20 plus off, you have understand the difference with online and retail.

In general, retail has nicer space, nicer shelving, and less density of product. Their cost for real estate is much more expensive for each sale even if they don't have game space. Their employees sell much less per hour on average than an online seller making the labor costs higher. Because of a much wider audience and cheaper storage space, online sellers are much less concerned with dead stock. They can almost always move it at cost. An LGS has to be very careful about filing their space with stuff that doesn't sell quickly. Even at or below cost, there just might not be a buyer for unpopular items. Then, they have to take extra time to go to eBay or donate them or whatever. This is getting boring, but I think you see some of the issues.

Now, if you are in the U.S., you need to know that competitor/player/game friend creation is largely a factor of the health of the LGS network. Player creation and maintenance is greatly increased by good LGS's, who benefit from selling and supporting the games. The problem is that the online guys, who fill a needed space in the sales chain (rural customers, low volume games, larger stock to fulfill orders of hard to find items, etc.) make easy money stealing business from an LGS whose work creates demand they fill.

If you really can't afford to compete in a game buying only from the LGS, then maybe you can contribute in other ways to their well being. Help with events, help maintain the terrain, recruit wealthier players, bring cookies, whatever. If you've got a good LGS, be part of keeping it healthy. You'll miss it otherwise.

Beholden is a strong word, an not one I agree with in this topic of conversation. I simply wasn't going to address semantics. Using a word like 'beholden' draws the connotation of aggravation and attack. It's a loaded word that I simply didn't care to address because I felt like it meant to draw people into an argumentative debate. That is my impression however, an not one I intend to condone. If that's how it was meant I do not know, but that's how it felt to me.

I'm not 'beholden' to the particular game store I frequent. I simply choose to invest my money where I feel it will be the most used. However I see it as a sign of mutual respect between myself and the store owner, that I contribute my earned dollar there when I decide I want to spend money on frivolous things. I will admit to you I have a rabid loyalty like tendency, its not necessarily smart, and its not necessarily objective. I also dont draw that Loyalty arbitrarily. That store owner has gone out of the way in the past to help me, and is currently helping my through a particular situation right now (even if its only to keep my business). I wont necessarily say I'm the best buds with the owner, but I do believe we are friendly. I know hes out to make money so he can survive, and potentially profit. It doesn't bother me, because if I was in that situation I would do the same.

That being said, I help him, and he helps me. Its a cyclical relationship. That is why I give that store my business, over the other three stores in my area.

I'm not seeking to impose my own twisted form of morality on you, though, I suppose with any conversation we are trying to make the other see and understand our view point.

For me it comes down to where I feel using my money will have the most benefit. An when we are talking on a smaller scale like the FLGS I frequent, I feel my money is going is going into a better place then if I was to buy online, or buy from those other stores. Am I saying I'm right in my personal beliefs? I hope I am. However I cant say without a shadow of a doubt.

Ultimately it comes down to the fact, I'm doing whats right for me.

I would like to start with I am not attempting to be or am in any actuality being aggravated or attacking. The word beholden in my experience does not draw any of those connotations nor in any way is it loaded and meant to draw anyone into an argument. There is nothing here that needs condoning, and apologize that my use of beholden confused you. To be clear this is the effect i was was going for with the word:

be·hold·en

1. owing thanks or having a duty to someone in return for help or a service. (per Bing but here is Merriam - Webster for you as well http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beholden)

The discussion has been that if you play at a venue then are you morally inclined to buy there if able. I don't think anyone would disagree with that point, myself included. I asked whether a person would be owing the FLGS for the service of providing space for Armada (beholden), even if said person supports the store in other ways. I 100% agree that my money should go were it will have the most benefit, that more often than not just happens to be with me so that I can make additional purchases, namely at FLGSs (not sure how to pluralize an acronym lol). I don't think anyone is saying that your moral belief of paying where you play is wrong or twisted. In fact, I would say it is the vast majorities belief as well.

My FLGS has a large well lit and maintained gaming area, tables and terrain (for any miniature game you can imagine) are free for use anytime a table is open, and is added to by the store fairly frequently. They host tournaments and campaigns, many free of charge for entry, as well as entrance fee events constantly.

I do 90% or more of my gaming at this store, it's where I met and befriended my gaming group who drive or take the train into from 40-60 minutes away simply because it's a great store with a wonderful staff, as well as being the closest shop for them. If I'm going to be using their tables and terrain and electricity and hospitality for 90% of my gaming, I feel it is more than fair to give them my business on the games I'm going to be playing there in order to keep this place profitable and open.

This store replaced, by buying out, another LGS that also had a wonderful staff and gaming area, but eventually decided the profit margin didn't cut it. And it was a good thing, because all rumors I heard pointed to the shop closing before an offer came along, so either way, the old shop was closing, and I was about to be out of a game shop.

My position is fairly simple, if I want access to gaming space, I need to pay my fair share to keep it going, because I've seen firsthand that brick and mortar stores will go out of business and usually not be replaced if they can't afford to stay open. If you're not gaming at a LGS, buy your games however you want too. If you spend a percentage of your time gaming at your LGS, then you should seriously match that in your purchases, it's a fair policy even if your shop isn't holding tournaments or whatever.

Again agree 100%! but cannot agree that I spend every gaming dollar at said store. If I support the store in other ways but am then in the "wrong" (this IS to strong of a word but all i have right now for not spending all of my gaming money there then I think there may be another issue of losing players for some of your games. I don't think everyone can afford to pay top dollar for each game and its expansions. Therefore groups would be even smaller.

My FLGS shoots us a discount when we buy in bulk or preorder.

Buying an X-Wing SA? Full price.

Buying 10 ships at once? Discount.

Preordering one ship? Small discount.

Preordering many ships? Significant discount.

You are lucky.

I buy as much as I can from my local gameing store. They give us a wonderful place to play for free, so patronizing them as much as possible is the right thing to do.

Couldn't agree more but as I've stated above if its the difference of buying a little and not supporting the store in other ways, or buying more and supporting the store in other ways then I will always choose the later.

First, no one is obliged to support an LGS and especially not one they don't think gives good service.

Just so you can get an idea of why they need to charge close to retail, rather than 20 plus off, you have understand the difference with online and retail.

In general, retail has nicer space, nicer shelving, and less density of product. Their cost for real estate is much more expensive for each sale even if they don't have game space. Their employees sell much less per hour on average than an online seller making the labor costs higher. Because of a much wider audience and cheaper storage space, online sellers are much less concerned with dead stock. They can almost always move it at cost. An LGS has to be very careful about filing their space with stuff that doesn't sell quickly. Even at or below cost, there just might not be a buyer for unpopular items. Then, they have to take extra time to go to eBay or donate them or whatever. This is getting boring, but I think you see some of the issues.

Now, if you are in the U.S., you need to know that competitor/player/game friend creation is largely a factor of the health of the LGS network. Player creation and maintenance is greatly increased by good LGS's, who benefit from selling and supporting the games. The problem is that the online guys, who fill a needed space in the sales chain (rural customers, low volume games, larger stock to fulfill orders of hard to find items, etc.) make easy money stealing business from an LGS whose work creates demand they fill.

If you really can't afford to compete in a game buying only from the LGS, then maybe you can contribute in other ways to their well being. Help with events, help maintain the terrain, recruit wealthier players, bring cookies, whatever. If you've got a good LGS, be part of keeping it healthy. You'll miss it otherwise.

Great points, that i Think many people don't quite understand about brick and mortar stores.

Just my 10 cents my two cents are free

Beholden, shmolden, I'm in it strictly out of enlightened selfintrest.

You ever try to set up a game table at a Wallmart ....

Beholden, shmolden, I'm in it strictly out of enlightened selfintrest.

You ever try to set up a game table at a Wallmart ....

haha that is awesome!

I firmly believe you should be willing to pay a table tax or fee. If they have tables there that you can and do play on, then you owe that store a fair price for that space.

One way for retail to figure out how much they need to sell is $/square foot. They need to sell $X worth of stuff per square foot of space to break even. Tables take up space that could otherwise be used for shelves to hold product.

How much that table may cost will vary from place to place, but it is not free. It may attract people to the store, but that only helps if they actually buy things.

IMO anyone who plays at a store and doesn't buy at the same store is a freeloader at best.

Beholden, shmolden, I'm in it strictly out of enlightened selfintrest.

You ever try to set up a game table at a Wallmart ....

haha that is awesome!

First time I saw this, it was hanging by my SGBMFLGS's cash register.

Some of the guys I game with can't afford to spend much on games, due to their food addiction, and nobody down at the store has a problem with that. Staff and owner included.

But, the harsh reallity is, if most of us don't buy something every once and awhile, we will lose something that isn't going to be replaced. Right now we are having a board game golden age, plus that one card game. But I remember the dark times before that, and I think the internet could lead to a very quick death of your local stores if board and card games have a bad couple of years.

So, I buy local out of a sense of self preservation.

I firmly believe you should be willing to pay a table tax or fee. If they have tables there that you can and do play on, then you owe that store a fair price for that space.

One way for retail to figure out how much they need to sell is $/square foot. They need to sell $X worth of stuff per square foot of space to break even. Tables take up space that could otherwise be used for shelves to hold product.

How much that table may cost will vary from place to place, but it is not free. It may attract people to the store, but that only helps if they actually buy things.

IMO anyone who plays at a store and doesn't buy at the same store is a freeloader at best.

I like to see the poor as targets. How will I ever perfect the Screed rush with out and endless pool of Rebel scum? Most games play better with more players, and a poor student has value if he/she can join in to make that "one more guy" we need for a X player game.

So don't look at them as freeloaders, think of them as being more like Soylent Green.

I firmly believe you should be willing to pay a table tax or fee. If they have tables there that you can and do play on, then you owe that store a fair price for that space.

One way for retail to figure out how much they need to sell is $/square foot. They need to sell $X worth of stuff per square foot of space to break even. Tables take up space that could otherwise be used for shelves to hold product.

How much that table may cost will vary from place to place, but it is not free. It may attract people to the store, but that only helps if they actually buy things.

IMO anyone who plays at a store and doesn't buy at the same store is a freeloader at best.

does this apply to people who support the store in other ways?

I tend to buy exclusively from my FLGS assuming they have what i want to begin with. Its the only place i can play such games, theyre really great people, and of course discount cards (10% off next purchase after spending $100, and yes i have such discount waiting for wave 2 to hit the shelves lol).

Right now, i just want 1 of everything. Since my friends and i share ships all the time i dont really see a need to buy multiple ships. Smaller ones maybe since running 3-4 corvettes or raiders might be a good idea but we'll see.

Think it was 160 dollars for 1 of everything. Blarg...lol

Most games play better with more players, and a poor student has value if he/she can join in to make that "one more guy" we need for a X player game.

I'll grant that having someone to play with that buys online can be better then no one to play with. It's part of the concept behind the Free to Play system in MMO's. But I still think if you are going to play at a store you should be buying stuff from that store.

does this apply to people who support the store in other ways?

Such as? You keep saying this as if you're trying to justify what you do. But the fact is that a store that doesn't sell product will close, it's as simple as that.

Sure if you run tournaments or a league or something you're helping the store out. But having a 20 person tournament when 19 of them buy online doesn't do a thing to help the store stay running.

Even if by running a tournament you bring in 5 new paying customers, you're still using table space that you haven't paid for. Sure the owner may feel like you should get a pass since you helped the bottom line, but the bottom line could still be better if you bought your stuff there.

It really comes down to this. If you don't buy at your LGS then you can't complain if it has to shut the doors.

It's simple for me. If the FLGS introduced me to a game, I buy it from them (unless they are marking up above MSRP). If I discovered it online and researched it myself, I have a clear conscience to buy online. The LGS needs to provide a value for the extra cost. This may be by providing table space or even just an active environment to discuss a game.

To be honest this fight between customers over doing the "honorable" local purchase is annoying. The LGS just needs to be upfront about their policy. Something like this goes a long way: "Table space may be used for games purchased here. Ask the manager prior to using table space for products purchased elsewhere. We may deny the use of tables at our discretion". Being a regular customer earns you more leeway.

Most games play better with more players, and a poor student has value if he/she can join in to make that "one more guy" we need for a X player game.

I'll grant that having someone to play with that buys online can be better then no one to play with. It's part of the concept behind the Free to Play system in MMO's. But I still think if you are going to play at a store you should be buying stuff from that store.

does this apply to people who support the store in other ways?

Such as? You keep saying this as if you're trying to justify what you do. But the fact is that a store that doesn't sell product will close, it's as simple as that.

Sure if you run tournaments or a league or something you're helping the store out. But having a 20 person tournament when 19 of them buy online doesn't do a thing to help the store stay running.

Even if by running a tournament you bring in 5 new paying customers, you're still using table space that you haven't paid for. Sure the owner may feel like you should get a pass since you helped the bottom line, but the bottom line could still be better if you bought your stuff there.

It really comes down to this. If you don't buy at your LGS then you can't complain if it has to shut the doors.

Such as buy other games where they overcharge and under provide compared to the norm. Pay for space when there are other free options. Free advertise for them. I'm not justifying anything it was just a simple question that people where having a hard time answering. I have no problem buying online when it comes to this game. If I didn't I wouldn't be spending money on other things at the store.

Something like this goes a long way: "Table space may be used for games purchased here. Ask the manager prior to using table space for products purchased elsewhere. We may deny the use of tables at our discretion". Being a regular customer earns you more leeway.

That's not a good way to foster goodwill with your customers,

In areas where table space has been free for years, it's likely going to be hard to get folks to pay for it. One idea I had was to have a discount card program that tracks purchases like just about everyone in business today. The store starts charging for table space, only it really doesn't ever charge regular customers who buy very much.

You could either give them table coupons whenever they buy, or simply thank them for their business when they come to pay for the table and tell them it's on the house. Whatever. I was thinking that it reinforced the value connection.

At five bucks a game, how many games before your online savings are all eaten up?

In areas where table space has been free for years, it's likely going to be hard to get folks to pay for it. One idea I had was to have a discount card program that tracks purchases like just about everyone in business today. The store starts charging for table space, only it really doesn't ever charge regular customers who buy very much.

You could either give them table coupons whenever they buy, or simply thank them for their business when they come to pay for the table and tell them it's on the house. Whatever. I was thinking that it reinforced the value connection.

At five bucks a game, how many games before your online savings are all eaten up?

this game alone 15 which is a lot. But I think that would be good most people in my group would get in free due to other purchases.

I think directly monetizing the use of the tables is only going to put people off, and have the net effect of discouraging people to buy and play at the local store.

I think directly monetizing the use of the tables is only going to put people off, and have the net effect of discouraging people to buy and play at the local store.

I agree I' don't know what the long term answer is

I think directly monetizing the use of the tables is only going to put people off, and have the net effect of discouraging people to buy and play at the local store.

I agree I' don't know what the long term answer is

Our LGS has a good compromise for this. Have a schedule for different games to be played for each day of the week. In our case, we have things like "X-Wing Thursdays" or "MtG Fridays". This way, tournaments are easier to schedule and you need not worry when the best time would be to drop by and find someone who can plays your choice of game. Most of us can only squeeze in a day or two for gaming anyway.

Armada is still new here and we're working on demoing like crazy. Hopefully, there would enough Armada players to warrant an "Armada Saturday".

The long term answer lies with the store, IMO. There's always going to be outliers that will buy wherever they can get the product for the best price, but IMO most customers will support a local store if they feel it deserves it. This means working to create a positive, inclusive community with plenty of opportunity to play, and making sure that all the time spent in the store is a positive experience.

No one is going to feel bad about buying online if their local store is a dingy gaming dungeon and the owner is an obnoxious know-it-all, and they only let yu-gi-oh players use the tables, and only on the first thursday evening of the month. And nor should they. But a store that has plenty of tables that you can always use, runs regular events (both competitive and narrative in nature) provides support for a wide range of games and is clean, well aired and well lit, with neat and tidy staff who provide a pleasant atmosphere to game and buy, well, that store SHOULD have a lot of goodwill in the community. And people should buy there instead of buying online without even thinking about it.

The long term answer lies with the store, IMO. There's always going to be outliers that will buy wherever they can get the product for the best price, but IMO most customers will support a local store if they feel it deserves it. This means working to create a positive, inclusive community with plenty of opportunity to play, and making sure that all the time spent in the store is a positive experience.

No one is going to feel bad about buying online if their local store is a dingy gaming dungeon and the owner is an obnoxious know-it-all, and they only let yu-gi-oh players use the tables, and only on the first thursday evening of the month. And nor should they. But a store that has plenty of tables that you can always use, runs regular events (both competitive and narrative in nature) provides support for a wide range of games and is clean, well aired and well lit, with neat and tidy staff who provide a pleasant atmosphere to game and buy, well, that store SHOULD have a lot of goodwill in the community. And people should buy there instead of buying online without even thinking about it.

See, I bought my stuff online because of the local stores in my area, one is a Hobbytown USA which only has Warhammer/40k stuff going on in the gaming corner, or a really scummy Comic book store. And I know it is scummy from my own personal experiences. Back when I played Magic years ago, when the Commander decks first came out they: Removed the oversized cards to charge extra for them and B: charged more for certain Commander decks once they were down to one of that option. On free comic book day, they were charging for the comic books that you were supposed to get for free. And they will over charge for things, not because they have a bottom line to meet, but because they can and are the only local actual gaming store like that. The Hobbytown is down near the mall, as is the only other non actual comic book/gaming book only store that I know of. So location means they price gouge on whatever they can get away with, whether it is comic books, cards, what have you.

The other store that used to be in the area that closed down, the manager took advantage of the kids playing Yu Gi Oh, offering poor store credit for the cards they had that he would either sell for five times that cost if not more, or just offer really poor store credit with a lot of pressure so he could give that card to his son for his deck. Any local store tournaments had in store staff or family as winners, unless it was an official one, that he couldn't weight for his outcome, and was stuck with being watched by tournament reps so he couldn't price gouge the requirements.

I think directly monetizing the use of the tables is only going to put people off, and have the net effect of discouraging people to buy and play at the local store.

I agree I' don't know what the long term answer is

You say that as if gaming stores are a dying breed. Are they?

I think that people' gaming community spirit, and the norm of encouraging people to buy where they play tends to work.

It doesn't capture everybody, but it seems to capture enough people. I also know people who play, but buy online, but still contribute by buying drinks and snacks at the store where they play. Myself, I buy product from the outlier store that's closest to me, and who has the loyalty program. I play there, but I also play at another place that sells drinks and snacks. I buy mostly the former. Also, because they do card sales only, and no card sales at <$5, so that means that I pick up card sleeves, or paintbrushes there as well.

I think that the success of your gaming stores will depend on your local culture. I realize that I live in a Mecca for gaming. We just had another store open a month or two ago, and they're going gangbusters. (Lyraeus and I were even there tonight.) They're also one of our five stores running a Sullust tournament. Not much before then, there was a different gaming den (most revenue comes from food and drink, and a smaller selection of games sold) that opened up, and their event organizer was pimping his place pretty hard in the community. Now they have a light rail line that will make it easier for the carless to get down there.

The point being is that my community's culture has norms that help gaming stores survive. A community spirit helps that work. But if your broader community has social norms of buy-it-cheap or don't-play-with-people-you-don't-know, then FLGSs are just not going to thrive in your environs.

Calgary recently lost one Gaming store that stocked X-Wing... So we're down to 5 now... And that's on top of the fact that we have one of the most successful Games Workshop stores in the Americas.

So we've got...

Sentry Box
Myth Games
Revolution
Imaginary Wars
Metal Galaxy Games (and soon to be Bistro!)

Recently, in fact, last week, we lost Trilogy Games.


And apparently, the Sentry Box and Myth Games are the only Massing at Sullust events in the Province.

This means working to create a positive, inclusive community with plenty of opportunity to play, and making sure that all the time spent in the store is a positive experience.

I like to think it's a given that people should only support a store that deserves it. Idealy if the store is bad, but there's a healthy sized community of gamers in the area, it will close making room for a place that's decent.

Myself I look at the LGS as a Value Added deal. How much value does the store add to my purchase. My LGS for example easily adds enough value to overcome the difference between online and retail price. With the other things he offers. Such as letting me borrow a team for Blood Bowl, or mini's for Dead Man's Hand. Or having terrain to use for other games, or picking stuff up for me at the distributor and so on.

One thing I think is interesting is that the FFG Event Center is what I'd consider the ideal model for a modern LGS.

They have a ton of product in stock, and not just FFG stuff, they sell 40k, Infinity, board games, MtG, ect... They have a kitchen and make burgers, chilli, soup, sandwiches, ect... They sell wine and beer as well as soft drinks and coffee.

The shelfs with product are in one area the the tables are in another so you can play without having people wandering around shopping. The play area is very well lit with two of the four walls being almost all windows. It's wide open and well ventilated. They have a huge library of board games you can rent for $5, or you can rent terrain or a truly amazing table for 40k.

I do the initial bulk purchases online. The discount is simply to good and allows me to solidly grab all the larger items. That said I tend to support local stores with misc. purchases anytime I come in. Be it food, paints, $20 or less additions to my various games/hobbies. Unfortunately I can't justify an extra $100 to a local store for a bulk purchase. But I don't go to the store unless I can afford something to purchase. And from time to time I grab larger stuff but normally it's in that $20 or less range.

I already put in my initial order for Wave 2 on MM and might be placing a second order for more large ships but I might also just grab them from time to time when I play locally. We'll see.