Mooniac, I have been involved with playtesting process for a number of games and a number of different publishers.

That posters suggestion is a massive upheaval in regards to the valuation of the Squadron stat.

The Squadron stat, as is, is one of fairly low value. Not in the sense that it can't be used as an effective stat but in the sense that it likely doesn't necessitate a large increase in cost as to utilize it you also have to then spend more points on Squadrons. Unlike every other stat (non-Upgrade bar) inherent to a ship it has no value without an additional expenditure of points.

That posters suggestion is to give free points of Squadrons on the basis of the Squadron stat, so now rather then the Squadron stat requiring additional expenditure of points it instead grants you points. That type of stark reversal now makes the Squadron stat significantly more valueable, which is not at all what it is costed at. You've now disproportionately added value to ships with large Squadron stats compared to those without.

Moreover, this is a suggestion being made on the basis of play with just the Core and Wave 1 at 300 points. We haven't even seen the game at it preferred point level and now with the Large class of ships. That is why any suggestion to alter the rules in a fundemental manner can't be anything but pre-mature, which is exactly what my statement to that poster said.

Yup, you will then see people spam the most effective Cheap Carrier that gives them the most squadrons for the least amount of points so that they get free points

Mooniac, I have been involved with playtesting process for a number of games and a number of different publishers.

That posters suggestion is a massive upheaval in regards to the valuation of the Squadron stat.

The Squadron stat, as is, is one of fairly low value. Not in the sense that it can't be used as an effective stat but in the sense that it likely doesn't necessitate a large increase in cost as to utilize it you also have to then spend more points on Squadrons. Unlike every other stat (non-Upgrade bar) inherent to a ship it has no value without an additional expenditure of points.

That posters suggestion is to give free points of Squadrons on the basis of the Squadron stat, so now rather then the Squadron stat requiring additional expenditure of points it instead grants you points. That type of stark reversal now makes the Squadron stat significantly more valueable, which is not at all what it is costed at. You've now disproportionately added value to ships with large Squadron stats compared to those without.

Moreover, this is a suggestion being made on the basis of play with just the Core and Wave 1 at 300 points. We haven't even seen the game at it preferred point level and now with the Large class of ships. That is why any suggestion to alter the rules in a fundemental manner can't be anything but pre-mature, which is exactly what my statement to that poster said.

FFG is not GW, the point costs are not something just picked out of a hat. Now are they WizKids in which they only adhere to a formula. They do have inherent valuations of various stats and such and they do make edits to cost based on playtesting.

Yep, just adding free fighters for all, would break the game balance into little pieces. From what I have seen, FFG is better than most when it comes to balance, so that's a no go.

The thing I think could work is tournament scoring based on the rule book. Or maybe a youtube vidio of the play testing that caused them to add the 300/400 point table rule. They did it for a reason, if the reason is a good one, than they should share.

I agree with this.

You just gave free points away. Now you are playing a 500+ point game and people just max out on ships. Yay diversity!

They can still choose to max out on number of ships, or they can choose to outfit their ships. They also have more points to use on their fighters, and that would lead to more diverse mixes of fighter types than the current set up. Not seeing how this would adversely affect diversity.

I agree with this.

You just gave free points away. Now you are playing a 500+ point game and people just max out on ships. Yay diversity!

They can still choose to max out on number of ships, or they can choose to outfit their ships. They also have more points to use on their fighters, and that would lead to more diverse mixes of fighter types than the current set up. Not seeing how this would adversely affect diversity.

No need to take the MC30, Gladiator, CR90, Raider, ISD 2, Assault Cruiser, Assault Frigate A's, or the VSD 2.

Games would be ISD 1's, Command Frigates, Assault Frigate B's or VSD 1's

Yay diversity.

I agree with this.

You just gave free points away. Now you are playing a 500+ point game and people just max out on ships. Yay diversity!

They can still choose to max out on number of ships, or they can choose to outfit their ships. They also have more points to use on their fighters, and that would lead to more diverse mixes of fighter types than the current set up. Not seeing how this would adversely affect diversity.

Not if you determine how many free squadrons you get by the amount of squadron command d you have.

No need to take the MC30, Gladiator, CR90, Raider, ISD 2, Assault Cruiser, Assault Frigate A's, or the VSD 2.

Games would be ISD 1's, Command Frigates, Assault Frigate B's or VSD 1's

Yay diversity.

Again, why? The differences would be the same between the ships. Raiders would be more valuable, as would Gladiators if more squadrons were on the table. Small ships capable of killing the big capital ships would still be a thing. Having a set value of 10 pts per squadron value wouldn't make capital ships obsolete any more than having the Raider makes fighters obsolete. I really don't see the issue here at all. Both sides will be bringing fighters to the game, but the capital ships would still be slugging it out like usual since neither side would be able to instantly gain fighter superiority (unless it's a good or bad build). If anything, it would push towards using more long/mid range weapons on your capital ships, so you can stay further from your opponents fighters swarms. All of this is exactly how Star Wars combat is described in the books, and shown in the movies. Making the game more like the lore they spring from sounds good to me.

Only the cream rises to the top...

Um....not getting involved in the discussion for so many reasons, but this amused me. I think you'll find that scum rises to the top too, not just cream

Why would it matter? Hmmmm, we'll as I see it a VSD 1 with Expanded Hanger Bay is 77 points. That's 4 free squadrons. Why don't I take more of these and get more free squadrons?

Should Expanded Hanger Bays be worth more now if they net me a free squadron?

Oh hey, if my squadrons died because the new rule I have to take them means I bleed free points to the opponent. Guess I place my ties out of combat so that they don't die so fast.. .

Isn't that Gladiator cute! Looks like he is short 2 to 3 squadrons then me. Yay advantage!

Now being serious. Why does this game of complexity need this again?

I really oughta point out how effective squadrons are, and how the only legitimate complaint I've heard is how the tournament system handles m.o.v for wiping out all opposing ships because everything else can be overcome with practice

...but I want my free Mon Cal/ISD

so yeah, squadrons suck. never fly them

Remember that the top 2 of Sullust have to use at least 1 of the Rogues and Villains Squadrons

probably just Boba fett for ship spam

honestly, as long as I get to the final round I couldn't care less about if I win or not. I'll be more than ecstatic with either the ISD or Mon Cal (though, knowing my playerbase, it's going to be the mon cal either way)

Besides, if you know what I like to play, you know I'll be flying Ms. Ors

I really oughta point out how effective squadrons are, and how the only legitimate complaint I've heard is how the tournament system handles m.o.v for wiping out all opposing ships because everything else can be overcome with practice

...but I want my free Mon Cal/ISD

so yeah, squadrons suck. never fly them

Remember that the top 2 of Sullust have to use at least 1 of the Rogues and Villains Squadrons

probably just Boba fett for ship spam

honestly, as long as I get to the final round I couldn't care less about if I win or not. I'll be more than ecstatic with either the ISD or Mon Cal (though, knowing my playerbase, it's going to be the mon cal either way)

Besides, if you know what I like to play, you know I'll be flying Ms. Ors

You have come around to the B-Wing nation.. . . Hmmmm we need a shirt for this now. . .

You use Yarvis though

Look at a VSDv1 and a Scout MC30. Right now they are almost equal in thier costs. If the Squadron stat granted free Squadron points the VSD gains 3x the bonus points the MC30 does. If those ships costs were even remotely balanced before hand, they would not be with that type of rules change. Or if you want to look in faction look at the Scout MC30 and the AFM2B. Again 3x those free Squadron points. If those ships, relatively close in cost, were at all balanced with each other they certainly are would not be after that.

The only way to make the statement that that type of change wouldn't have drastic ramifications to the costing structure of the game is to assume that FFG is costing these ships arbitrarily.

Overall any mid-ranged ship with a lower Squadron value is immediately disadvantage with such a change without a recosting to occompany it.

Now I am not saying that the suggested change is a bad idea. If your goal was to ensure there were Squadrons on the table, it would be a way to accomplish that goal. But to implement it would require that FFG redo the costing of pretty much everything to adjust for what is a radical change in Fleet building. Without that restructuring the suggested change is absolutely untenable. What I have said is that FFG is very much unlikely to go back and redo the costing of Armada at all, and they certainly are not going to do it on the basis of contested opinions based solely on Wave 1 at 300 points.

mhyes

Yavaris is what takes B-wings up to ISD status (only better because the damage is spread out and not completely brace-able)

they are a tad redundant with the Shrimpy, but like I said I don't care about winning the final round. Just putting down some awesome Wave 2 goodies and walking away with one is victory enough for me

Make fighters shoot than move that's what our circle has done down here. Makes them worthwhile.

At first, I was going to disagree with you because I thought you were suggesting the usual "make them act like they've been given a squadron command all the time" we often hear (as in, they can always move and shoot). I dislike that idea because it completely invalidates the purpose of squadron commands, thus making carrier ships useless, which would require a major rule/functionality rework, which ultimately means it's not a super elegant or easy solution.

Then I reread what you said, and I actually kind of like it: make them follow ship activation rules of first attack then move (fixed order). Squadron command would then let them move and shoot in any order, so it's not pointless. Diminished certainly, but not pointless. Throw in more cards like Flight Controllers and Admiral Chimchimney and you'd still have some reason to use squadron commands.

Yes exactly! Also they would still be 'engaged' against fighters, but now they have the ability to jump ahead and harass a Ship unless it has it's own fighters to dogfight them. The beauty is it really doesn't alter the game itself or change any other rules/cards (that i can think of off the top) just buffs squadrons up to a reasonable level imo.

Squadron commands are still important because it allows them to fire first against other squadrons or get that move then shoot, perhaps a slight buffing like a single dice re-roll or something similar could also be worked in.

I think all fighters cost to much for what they can do, by about 50%

Mooniac, I have been involved with playtesting process for a number of games and a number of different publishers.

That posters suggestion is a massive upheaval in regards to the valuation of the Squadron stat.

The Squadron stat, as is, is one of fairly low value. Not in the sense that it can't be used as an effective stat but in the sense that it likely doesn't necessitate a large increase in cost as to utilize it you also have to then spend more points on Squadrons. Unlike every other stat (non-Upgrade bar) inherent to a ship it has no value without an additional expenditure of points.

That posters suggestion is to give free points of Squadrons on the basis of the Squadron stat, so now rather then the Squadron stat requiring additional expenditure of points it instead grants you points. That type of stark reversal now makes the Squadron stat significantly more valueable, which is not at all what it is costed at. You've now disproportionately added value to ships with large Squadron stats compared to those without.

Moreover, this is a suggestion being made on the basis of play with just the Core and Wave 1 at 300 points. We haven't even seen the game at it preferred point level and now with the Large class of ships. That is why any suggestion to alter the rules in a fundemental manner can't be anything but pre-mature, which is exactly what my statement to that poster said.

FFG is not GW, the point costs are not something just picked out of a hat. Now are they WizKids in which they only adhere to a formula. They do have inherent valuations of various stats and such and they do make edits to cost based on playtesting.

Only that's not really the point. The real point is how aggressively you slammed the guy and wrapped your opinion in fancy words that, IMO from playing and testing since the seventies including in simulations for the U.S. Army, are just mumbo jumbo.

(Having read that do you really care about my experience? I bet not)

Then, you only slightly changed my explanation of what I predict would happen (because I, like you, don't know) and then make it out to be a hyperbolic problem which it may or may not be, but so what? You don't know, cannot know, as you did not test. Could you, should you, have said something to the effect that it might lead to a points issue and maybe would need some work? Yes, but you did not.

Unconstructive replies to rules change speculation are just bad. That's the point. Using an appeal to the designer's authority and knowledge is just nasty gravy. No one here cares how smart or experienced or knowledgeable anyone else is unless that person is being helpful and constructive. Trust me. I know. Posted worse than you did before I figured it out. Likely helped squash systems I loved doing it.

Just don't.

So let's simplify it for you.

An Assault Frigate A is 82 points. It would give me 2 free squadrons.

An Assault Frigate B is 72 points but gives me 3 free squadrons.

A MC30c Scout Frigate is 69 points and only gives me 1 free squadron.

Are these now reasonably costed?

To me the rebel fighters are all pretty good in a tourney scenario because they can be pretty effective whether there are opposing star fighters or not.

The drawback for imperials is that a decent anti squadron build is pretty useless in the current scenario (unless the mass Y wings or Bwings become a major thing!)

Having said that, even tie interceptors have made a useful contribution plinking a gladiators for me. Once their shields are gone one or two hits becomes very worrying for then!

I think the current view of squadrons is also impacted by the fact that there is a very heavy Imperial focus in most clubs, and Imperials don't have any cheap ship options, so fighters become very all or nothing for them. If Wave 2 arrives with some hard counters to the gladiator then things will change up a lot.

What I am hoping is that some of the as yet un seen upgrade cards for Wave 2 confer the rogue/intel/grit abilities on commanded squadrons. If these abilities are any good, it would be nice to be al to us them without having to use "special" characters.

Only the cream rises to the top...

Um....not getting involved in the discussion for so many reasons, but this amused me. I think you'll find that scum rises to the top too, not just cream

So do witches.

You are the only person acting aggressively Mooniac. You clearly have not thought out the situation.

I have provided you with my exact reasoning for my assertion that FFG will not make such a drastic change. You have provided nothing.

Somehow you view an unreasoned suggestion as more valueable then reasoned criticism of that suggestion. Whatever man.

Squadrons are going strong in the Portland area. We have just gotten to the point where we know how much is too much. In fact I have won my last couple of games with squadrons. In fact, 2 A-Wings and 4 B-Wings.

[..]

Sorry, don't want. Right now the game is diverse. No squadron lists have issues against squadron lists. I like that dynamic.

Squadrons take practice and experience.

Things may be different, depending on your local meta.

I'd agree that in Portland the meta has moved away from the no-squadrons build, after having been dominant for a little bit. I'd like to think that I helped that happen by 100pnt Rhymer-balling some people and teaching them the power of the Bomber-side.

Thankfully, there are still some people who do not yet understand that power, and I look forward to schooling them soon.

Regarding the 'fix', I'm not going to break my head on people's hypothetical solutions. It's not worth my remaining brain cells. (I guess that means that I'm somewhat trolling this thread, but oh well.) I'll just wait until Wave 2 comes out to see how things change.

Squadrons are going strong in the Portland area. We have just gotten to the point where we know how much is too much. In fact I have won my last couple of games with squadrons. In fact, 2 A-Wings and 4 B-Wings.

[..]

Sorry, don't want. Right now the game is diverse. No squadron lists have issues against squadron lists. I like that dynamic.

Squadrons take practice and experience.

Things may be different, depending on your local meta.

I'd agree that in Portland the meta has moved away from the no-squadrons build, after having been dominant for a little bit. I'd like to think that I helped that happen by 100pnt Rhymer-balling some people and teaching them the power of the Bomber-side.

Thankfully, there are still some people who do not yet understand that power, and I look forward to schooling them soon.

Regarding the 'fix', I'm not going to break my head on people's hypothetical solutions. It's not worth my remaining brain cells. (I guess that means that I'm somewhat trolling this thread, but oh well.) I'll just wait until Wave 2 comes out to see how things change.

Makes my job easier

Your only job is to die for your pathetic cause, Rebel scum.

Makes my job easier

Your only job is to die for your pathetic cause, Rebel scum.