This is going to be one of my silly questions, but as I don't totally get how Stars of Inequity works (and some peoples' commentary hints that the book doesn't, either), I'll just put it simply; how much is a planet worth? Lure of the Expanse leads you to several worlds, some ripe for plunder, and even the possibility of seizing one, if all goes well. I once postulated that, after the Frozen Reaches, it might not seem too crazy to lay claim to the planet; YOU saved it, YOU made the bickering alts actually work together, in order to save it, and its outside the Imperium, so you CAN claim it, at least in theory. Thing is, much like ships, WORLDS don't have a value, in the game, and much like ships, they aren't just PF printing presses; the expense of operating/administering a planet is no trivial sum, no matter how lucrative it might be. Still, a Planetary Governor might be rather wealthy, and well to do, so claiming one might make you more so, too.

Thus, whether by helping me understand how colonies are SUPPOSED to work, or whatever, what CAN claiming a world for your dynasty net you? Some RTs have stakes in worlds, and are fabulously wealthy (Winterscale, Chorda), while others are Scrooge McDuck, even without owning planet-front property (Saul). How do you claim one, and then adjust your Profit Factor, and how might it fluctuate your PF, for good or ill, along the way? Would I just benefit more from peeling through SoI, even though one of my examples is already much more than a starting out, or struggling colony? Thanks much, and have a good one.

Depending on the world you find, if it's uncharted I'd allow players to sell the route for 1PF + 1PF (mineral rich, but barren otherwise) up to 5PF (eldar maiden world) from the planetary "rights".
For all the rest, I'd rely on Stars of Inequity (colonies, treasures, etc). Finding an interest buyer would be an endeavor in itself (will they sell it to another RT looking to setup a colony? or hand it to the administrarum for a lower profit?).

My Damaris is all that's in the book + a teeming industry for Voidwhales processing (which would make sense to flock about the frozen reaches). If my players are ever to go there and help the government, they will have to negotiate the rights and leases with the planetary governor in order to get their "payment" in defense of the planet.
E.g.: +3PF from "Bulwark shipyard & voidwhale processing plant shares" + 2PF from "PDF arms-factory shares" planetside + 1PF from agri-business planetside + 1PF in Ecclesiarchy reward for safekeeping the cathedral, etc...

Regardless of where the achievement points came from, all of the PF that the Dynasty gain (at least in my games) have to be assigned to something. Hell, I even breakdown their starting PF into different businesses they the dynasty had before the current RT - and I do this both for background/roleplay and also to know what to hit when a Misfortune hits.

E.g.: the Waldorf dynasty owned a teeming proto-forge world that produced flak armour and chimeras' chassis (just the structure) exporting these to other worlds in Calixis. When we started the campaign, the players conscripted a large amount of able-bodied people from that planet - and when years later the Administratum requested an IG regiment for tithe, the industries were so undermanned and there were so many riots that the dynasty lost 4PF until something could be done (which btw, resulted in them blackmailing the Imperial Navy & Departamentum Munitorum into giving them the troops back in exchange for the "Light of Terra" hulk).

Anyone can claim anything, just like in today's world. Someone can point to a star, say it and all the planets around it are his, draft some papers, and call it quits. Is it really yours though? Does anyone recognize those papers? What is someone else goes to your planet, mines the crap out of it, and gives you a penny because you "claimed" it. Is that reasonable? What I'm ultimately stating, is that ones word that he has claimed something in the Expanse, is porportionaly aligned to how well one has direct control over it. No one out there will hear you scream, so to speak. And getting it legitimately claimed via paperwork could be an endeavor all its own.

"What is Jerusalem worth?"

"Nothing. Everything."

Hmm, so vague answers, after the first? To Nameless2All: Yes, but if you saved the planet (Damaris), and the people there knew it, and appreciated your efforts, they might more focus on accommodating your interests, and even after you leave, they might assist in letting other "Rogue Traders with the right to just claim anything" know that they prefer you, since you care about them, and they do have a military to repulse most single Rogue Traders. On the surface, I know this was just another of my why? questions, but it would seem like "owning Damaris", for instance, could be very lucrative, and if you were the RT who went through Frozen Reaches, I could see the people there liking you, and with the rulership there being purely "who has the money" (plutocracy), and in your debt, you DO have a lot of money, and can put some into Damaris' future. Anywho, I was just curious. I don't know all the basics for how SoI colonies work, what you pay, and when they (hopefully) start to pay back. Thought I'd inquire, is all.

We're still kind of puzzled, ourselves, on how SoI colonies work. We came up with our own home-rules for it because some things just didn't make much sense. Personally, I tend to think that the devs were overthinking things. Not everything needs to have a game mechanic. Also, from my perspective as a GM as well, I feel like what SoI encourages is building an empire too quickly, like it's a video game. You can have a ton of adventures just setting up a colony.

For instance, as I've pointed out in other threads, I've established a new colony on a strange blue desert world we've named Azure (pretty catchy, eh?). All we did was find the world, claim it (had to fight a rival Rogue Trader for it), and then our GM did some Endeavours for us to establish a base, hire some surveyors and geologists, explore the planet and the star system (in fact, I claimed the whole freakin system as mine), without going through the tedium of managing the colony. And we've been doing pretty good. This was after going through Frozen Reaches and saving Damaris (I kept the ruling governor in charge, even though we temporarily removed him from command and assassinated his military commander, who was trying to overthrow him). Our actions at Damaris has made us a bit of a major power in the region, and I'm something of a hero to the Damarans; they made a huge statue of me.

We're in the process of setting up a space station over Azure. As far as I know, there aren't too many rules for that, so we came up with some, using what was available and making up stuff as we go along. We also have plans to establish mining outposts on one of the moons (it has two) and the asteroids, but that's going to be later after we deal with the Ork infestation and negotiate more terms with the Craftworld Eldar. Our Missionary has already established, at the colony itself, a mission for the Adepta Sororitas, and I've had to execute the leader I assigned there for gross criminal incompetence.

So, what is this world and system worth? Well, I think it's worth enough that I'm willing to defend it with the meager fleet I already have.

Agreed, even setting up a single world as a proper colony is an endeavour that should shave off decades of everyone's lifespan before the situation there starts to look like something other than an improvised basecamp. And when the Imperium takes half a (or an entire) century to build a single starship at a fully staffed shipyard, imagine the immense logistical effort it requires to set up anything larger than a modular survey outpost in a geostationary orbit.

This isn't Master of Orion where you click End Turn and your population doubles.

The goal of such a campaign should not be "empire building" in the literal sense, but to claim a foothold on a wild, untamed and unexplored new world, similar to the European explorers arriving at the coasts of America. So that maybe, when your Rogue Trader retires, they can do so in a comfortable little palace overseeing a growing city of several thousand colonists which have begun to swap tents for actual houses years ago. This is your personal monument.

Of course, you could always speed up the game to skip a couple years and play only the interesting bits. It could make for an interesting multi-generational campaign -- imagine the players ultimately having to switch characters, now playing their former PC's descendants. Or perhaps the sons and daughters of other players' character, depending on how likely the various members of the original crew were to procreate. Maybe even split said descendents into several groups, one of them being the new PCs, the others being NPCs, some of whom may be helpful, whilst others see the players as competition.

This is where you really delve into space opera.

The goal of such a campaign should not be "empire building" in the literal sense, but to claim a foothold on a wild, untamed and unexplored new world, similar to the European explorers arriving at the coasts of America. So that maybe, when your Rogue Trader retires, they can do so in a comfortable little palace overseeing a growing city of several thousand colonists which have begun to swap tents for actual houses years ago. This is your personal monument.

I like it.

We've been playing pretty much every week since we started six or seven months ago, and we've had a few chances to look back at what we accomplished. Our first adventure was just getting the ship, as it was chained to an asteroid on Footfall and used as a small community. Since then it's been a battle just to get our Profit Factor up, and then we did the Frozen Reaches, and now we're finally making the money we like to where we have good alliances, a Guard Regiment, three other ships (two of which were captured by us) and now, a world all to ourselves (well, mostly, if you don't count the Orks). There's been some ups and downs, some victories and defeats, but it's been a lot of fun. We're currently getting ready for our GM to unleash Part II of the Warpstorm Trilogy on us.

But my Seneschal better find me a bride, soon, or I'm going to go Miles Gloriosus on his ass!

Yea, my apologies Venkelos, I was just attempting to clarify the significance or lack thereoff to a claim status on a world since Sebastian Yorke already had good examples of PF bonus. Ultimately, it depends on several factors for a worlds worth to a Dynasty or anyone else. The resources it has, the location of the planet, trade routes to it, market of said resources, problems/enemies on/near planet, and a few other factors. Most of which can be role played or other endeavors conducted to fix; however, some you may be unable to correct (like resources and location). Damaris would greatly boost ones PF just in trade rights and resources, but protection of it and the trade routes would be important to continue its growth and profit. It has soldiers, weapons, factories, colonists, food, energy, and probable exotic or unique material or trade worth. Of course, saying you owning it without the backing of the people that live there and a way to protect said investment means you could lose it all pretty quickly, but if the Bullwork still stands then you have a great starting asset, if they are on your side. Nothing Iike having the local PDF confiscating your goods and selling them to your enemies at a bargain price to start off your yearly profit margins.

The worth of a world is an ephemeral thing. The more you get, the less its overall potential. Discounting local graft and corruption (which can be a major omission), any resources you remove from the world is investment not taking place. Investment compounds with interest. So, the more you take, the more the planet doesn't grow. Taking a single PF later becomes 2, 4, 8, and more PF it doesn't have. So maybe you let the planet grow a bit before exploiting it. At what point does a Dynasty decide they'd rather have PF than growth? Maybe you decide to exploit it immediately. Don't lose any sleep on it. Give it a number and move on.

I usually give trade routes a base of PF1 if they have something worth stopping a mile-long spaceship for a month in order to trade, load, and offload. If it's really exotic, rare, expensive, etc, I might give it a PF2.

If it's a settled planet, then I have to consider the size of the population, its prosperity, its industy, etc. The Core rules say a Hive Guild has a PF of 25. A hive isn't exactly defined, either, but 1 billion is a decent rule of thumb. Is your dynasty more efficient than an average hive guild? Then they should get more than PF25 out of it; if no then less.

Damaris is not the best example. There is too much wrong with the setting as it is drawn. In Frozen Reaches it is listed with a population of 3 billion, or approximately the same population of Earth in 1940. Any idea how many soldiers were mobilized for WWII? Some sources say as many as 1.9 billion people were mobilized. Conservative estimates place the number of soldiers at any given time at something approaching 100 million. The involved nations produced over 300k main battle tanks for the war (not including the tin cans with machineguns) and over a million of pieces of artillery (not including mortars).

Yet, Damaris, about to be overrun by aliens bent on killing or enslaving everyone on the planet can only muster troops numbered in the tens of thousands. You can command several battalions of them. Whoopee. The easiest fix is to lower the population of Damaris, but can a lesser population sustain the Bulwark?

As it stands, I'd give Damaris a PF approaching 100. How many self-propelled war-cities are on Zayth? Each is the size (and probably the cost) of a warp-capable starship. Add all those SPs together and you'd have an idea of the worth of Zayth. Of course, they aren't a unified whole...

So say you've conquered Damaris. You now are in control of that PF100. Does that mean get to add 100 to your PF? I suppose you could, but that would kill the planet fast. In essence, you've just enslaved its population. They'd have been just as well off under the Orks. They'll realize it soon enough and then you'll have a rebellion to deal with. So instead you decide to go for something more long-term. What kind of PF does it take to operate the planet's government, infrastrcuture, industry, agriculture, etc? In other words, what can you skim off the top without affecting the planet's economy in a negative way? Sure, you're killing its growth, but maybe you're not killing its current output. What's more reasonable? 1%? 5%? 10%? For a people living on the edge of subsistence, an agricultural deficit of a mere 5% means widespread starvation. And it won't mean 5% die of starvation. It means 50% will suffer from malnutrition and disease, with all the loss of production efficiency that goes along with it.

But hey, it's a game, not an essay on macroeconomics and human geography all rolled into one, right? So give the dynasty a number to play with, and give them the choice to go for less and long-term growth of the PF, or they can choose to exploit further for short-term gains at the cost of future rolls on the Misfortune table.

Done and over.

The worth of a world ... Misfortune table.

Done and over.

Hmm, that might've gone more negative than I was hoping. From a player perspective, it IS about increasing the PF, or getting SOMETHING out of everything you do, even if that result ends up negative (Misfortune), or just RP (the overall point of PLAYING, rather than using a calculator), so I was just trying to figure out the mechanical advantage of having players hammer out a colony, in the first place. Certainly, if the game was about developing the planet, as you live on it, and deal with its pitfalls, showing them the light of the Emperor, while getting from frig boxes to habs, that would be different, but these are often things running in the background, like so much more of this game can be, so the day-to-day activities of these people, while important, might not be so pressing to you, while you raid a treasure ship, halfway to the Rifts of Hecaton, from there.

Having whined that, I do appreciate the economics and history; it can help to see the stuff, when the game glosses over much of it. Thank you.

Nice to see the Dune reference, too.

I was just trying to convey the complexity of all the factors involved. In the final tally, though, you just want a simple number (PF) and a vehicle for the players to achieve it (an Endeavor). So just attach a number and give the whole a set of objectives to obtain. If you aren't sure what those objectives should be, you could always read a few dozen books, heh. Then again, that's what a community like this is for. We all have our areas of study, and together we can come up with ideas for you. You pick and choose depending on the actions your group likes to play.

Damaris is not the best example. There is too much wrong with the setting as it is drawn. In Frozen Reaches it is listed with a population of 3 billion, or approximately the same population of Earth in 1940. Any idea how many soldiers were mobilized for WWII? Some sources say as many as 1.9 billion people were mobilized. Conservative estimates place the number of soldiers at any given time at something approaching 100 million. The involved nations produced over 300k main battle tanks for the war (not including the tin cans with machineguns) and over a million of pieces of artillery (not including mortars).

Yet, Damaris, about to be overrun by aliens bent on killing or enslaving everyone on the planet can only muster troops numbered in the tens of thousands. You can command several battalions of them. Whoopee. The easiest fix is to lower the population of Damaris, but can a lesser population sustain the Bulwark?

You forget thought Errant, back in 1940 there were drafts and lots of people volunteered for the fighting. Compared to an Imperial World like Damaris, this is a comparison that cannot be made. The Imperium never does drafts, people never volunteer for combat because it is a very different system. A miner, worker, etc. on Damaris will huddle in his work bunk until the storm blows over or they get enslaved by Orks. The reason only a few tens of thousand troops are mustered is because they were never mustered, these are just the standing forces Damaris has.

Imperial Worlds by my understanding have a set number of defenders, and never or only extremely rarely raise more. Only once a planet falls to corruption or a rebellion do you start seeing the billions strong militias we always hear Chaos using (see Siege of Vraks as a good example of this). The Imperium does not seem to advocate militias that well, probably due to the inherent risk of arming the population you're already exploiting to fight off a threat before taking their weapons away from them.

Hmmm. If I recall correctly, you're in Central Europe. English might not be your bag. "Draftee" and "conscript" are synonymous, they mean the same thing. The Imperium is all about conscription. My Imperial Guard Codex uses the word conscription all throughout the pages. So, the comparison can be made and is appropriate.

• the Planetary Governor considers it unnecessary (or even risky, as suggested by SCKoNi) and is naively convinced the threat can be averted with what they have
  
• there are quite simply not enough weapons, vehicles and supplies to go around, and a trooper without a lasgun is of no use to the PDF
  
• the author of the book quite simply had a different idea of how things work in the setting
  

To piggyback on Lynata's post, I assumed that her 3rd point was the reality of the situation, and I used her 2nd point as my rationale.

Well Errant yes, I do live in Central Europe, but my current major in university is English language studies and linguistics. So with some measure of authority I can tell you that a "draft" and a "conscription" are not actually the same thing, though Wikipedia would have you think otherwise.

A draft happens when a country's military does not have enough volunteers to fill the needs of a military operation. This does not happen in the Imperium most of the time, though some books do mention drafts on more civilised worlds. A conscription is when any and all eligible individuals are forced, by law, to enter into military service.

The difference here should be clear.

Now as I understand the Imperium, the term "conscript" does very much point towards someone forced into military service, be it with their consent or not. Cadia, Armageddon, and other War Worlds are prime examples of this practice. A draftee is hardly ever mentioned for any Imperial Worlds, which brings us back to my earlier point that Damaris would not have more soldiers than its standing force as the Imperium does not conscript or draft or anything of the sort during times of war from the workers of the world its actually defending.
Incredibly short-sighted and prone to exploitation by enemies that see the potential of a desperate workforce? Every Secessionists thoughts exactly, and I think the Duke of the Severan Dominate would like a word about that.

I assumed that her 3rd point was the reality of the situation, and I used her 2nd point as my rationale.

This is how I try to look at most contradictions in the franchise -- it doesn't work all the time (depending on your threshold), but a lot of stuff can be "explained away".

A draftee is hardly ever mentioned for any Imperial Worlds

Just for reference, the Imperial Guard codices mention these things when they discuss recruitment. On some worlds, people even compete for the honour of being allowed to serve in the Guard. As the codex notes, for many citizens, this is actually the only hope for escaping a bleak life of endless work shifts in the manufactorium -- although personally I expect competitions to be more suitable for backwards Feral or Feudal worlds with an exaggerated sense of martial tradition, whereas on more advanced worlds, forced conscription is the norm.

Well Errant yes, I do live in Central Europe, but my current major in university is English language studies and linguistics. So with some measure of authority I can tell you that a "draft" and a "conscription" are not actually the same thing, though Wikipedia would have you think otherwise.

A draft happens when a country's military does not have enough volunteers to fill the needs of a military operation. This does not happen in the Imperium most of the time, though some books do mention drafts on more civilised worlds. A conscription is when any and all eligible individuals are forced, by law, to enter into military service.

The difference here should be clear.

Now as I understand the Imperium, the term "conscript" does very much point towards someone forced into military service, be it with their consent or not. Cadia, Armageddon, and other War Worlds are prime examples of this practice. A draftee is hardly ever mentioned for any Imperial Worlds, which brings us back to my earlier point that Damaris would not have more soldiers than its standing force as the Imperium does not conscript or draft or anything of the sort during times of war from the workers of the world its actually defending.

Incredibly short-sighted and prone to exploitation by enemies that see the potential of a desperate workforce? Every Secessionists thoughts exactly, and I think the Duke of the Severan Dominate would like a word about that.

Now you're picking fine points. According to Meriam-Webster, Oxford, and Roget's, the words are synonyms. Of course there are differences. That's why multiple words exist. They have different connotations.

I never quote Wikipedia. That's grounds for ridicule in my profession.

From my admittedly limited understanding of historical technicalities, I've always considered the draft to simply be conscription with a specific purpose (US in WW2 or Vietnam), as opposed to general conscription that occurs every year.

Germany, too, practiced conscription until 2011, but even before not every eligible citizen was actually drafted into service as the military took its pick from a variety of candidates depending on health, location and skills. There was also an option to "opt out" of the military by signing up for a term of civil service (equal length, usually in a hospital).

In the end, the point still does stand that the Damaris PDF was the correct size for an Imperial World of its age and importance. The Imperium simply doesn't care to send more troops than that, and the other 3 billion inhabitants are kept at a level of illiteracy and ignorance so that they don't even consider the possibility of enlisting into some form of militia force.

Conscription: Compulsory enlistment for state service, typically into the armed forces

Draft: US Compulsory recruitment for military service

-Oxford Dictionary

Like I said, it's a fine point and not one to quibble over. There is no need to get sensitive, SCKoNi. I wasn't attempting to be corrective. I was letting you know, just in case there was a lapse of communications in translation.

The point being made was that a planet with the population of Damaris could support an armed forces considerably larger than a dozen battalions. A plan should exist to mobilize the population. The biggest inhibitor would be retooling the industry for war. That becomes apparent when studying WWI, as the Americans had to make do with donated weapons from France and England. Given that time to retool, though, you see the USA in WWII producing over 88,000 main battle tanks, over 250,000 pieces of artillery, over 2.25 million military trucks, and over 250,000 military airplanes, and all that in less than 5 years, and with a population of merely 130 million. ¹

¹ Ellis, John. Brute Force: Allied Strategy and Tactics in the Second World War. New York: Viking Penguin, 1990. Print.

You're making the mistake of applying real-world events to a fantastical universe. Was the America of WW2 a theocratic society dominated by rigid societal norms, have a population raised from birth to avoid personal initiative, and host to a system of government so opaque in function as to take centuries to gather resources for even the smallest of matters?

I could do worse than using actual observation to back my logic and reasoning. That is not a mistake. That is empirical reasoning. It is inaccurate because our knowledge of the social sciences are less than perfect. Mathematics is a better researched discipline, as are many of our sciences. Psychology (to provide an example) is not. We can make suppositions based on our observations, but we are limited by our knowledge of neurology. Using wild guesses to intuit the differences between a 20th century USA and 400th century sci-fi retool would be a mistake. I'll stick to what is known, or at least reasonably theorized.

I can use real world examples to give me an idea of a theological society. That might account for the lack of forward progress in the Imperium. It might even account for the backward slide in technological knowledge.

And as far as collecting and collating data taking so long, that could be a simple matter of the vast amount of data available. On 21st century Earth, with a population of a piddly 7 billion, you still have a hard time narrowing down an internet search. Without using an advanced search technique you wind up with millions of hits. How do you sift through that data? You can narrow it down to thousands or even hundreds of hits, but in the end someone has to read it all to find the applicable data. And where is all that data stored and has anyone checked to see if those vast halls are overrun with rats or worse? Data will get lost. Even more will get "misplaced."

Was the America of WW2 a theocratic society dominated by rigid societal norms, have a population raised from birth to avoid personal initiative, and host to a system of government so opaque in function as to take centuries to gather resources for even the smallest of matters?

Is that a trick question?

*scnr*