With the worst-of-the-worst upgrades and pilots in the game, there are still mitigating circumstances in which they can function.

Expose is a good example:

4 points, an Elite Talent slot, an Action, and the lowering of an Agility walk into a bar, and give you a bonus attack die for the trouble.

• If you have less than 2 attack dice, Expose's bonus-die adds more expected damage than spending that single action on a Focus/Target Lock.
  
• If you have less than 4 attack dice, Expose's bonus-die added to another action provides more benefit than the 2 standard actions working in concert (TL + Focus).
  
• If you have multiple attacks out of your primary weapon, Expose affects all shots you fire in a round.
  

So: Now we know the narrow benefit, even when taking the Action into account. Is that benefit worth the other costs? Perhaps.

• On a Large Ship, 4 points is a much lower overall percentage of the ship, making it relatively cheaper for its effect-over-time.
• On a Decimator, the loss of Agility doesn't happen (excepting Kenkirk), as the native agility is already at the minimum.
• Decimators with Experimental Interface generate the requisite second-action for free, yet doing so adds 3 squad points and Mobility issues (i.e. Stress, and therefore restricting your dial to the Green maneuvers).

Is it good, here? No, as other Elite Talents offer similar talents for fewer squad-points, and without requiring the loss of action or mobility. Contrast the Decimator build with Predator, and the very slight damage increase is clearly not worth the 4 points, mobility issue, and additional filled slot.

This is why we say Expose is bad; even in its best scenario, other options are substantially better.

You can do a similar walkthrough with Marksmanship, and find that it is surprisingly playable with some builds.

Saboteur? Looks more attractive next to SLAM or Palpatine and the increased ability to land damage on Hull early in the game through Proton Bombs and Advanced Homing Missiles. Not yet "Good", but can actually be used.

& c. & c. & c.

Now, my challenge to you: Pick an upgrade, pilot, or ship that you think is terrible. Figure out when it is actually worth playing. Then see if anything else is more ideal in that scenario, to determine worth.

Aaaand GO.

Now, my challenge to you: Pick an upgrade, pilot, or ship that you think is terrible. Figure out when it is actually worth playing. Then see if anything else is more ideal in that scenario, to determine worth.

Aaaand GO.

Elusiveness. It might be worth playing on Ibtisam, who likes the ability to maneuver, take an action, and then pick up a stress at the most convenient time--when she's targeted by an early attacker. Stay on Target is an appealing option, but prevents her from taking an action. Opportunist is better on offense, but substantially more expensive.

The real competition would be Push the Limit, but Elusiveness is a little cheaper and offers a bit of extra kick on defense.

Elusiveness. It might be worth playing on Ibtisam, who likes the ability to maneuver, take an action, and then pick up a stress at the most convenient time--when she's targeted by an early attacker. Stay on Target is an appealing option, but prevents her from taking an action. Opportunist is better on offense, but substantially more expensive.

The real competition would be Push the Limit, but Elusiveness is a little cheaper and offers a bit of extra kick on defense.

Man, you stole my answer.

Elusiveness. It might be worth playing on Ibtisam, who likes the ability to maneuver, take an action, and then pick up a stress at the most convenient time--when she's targeted by an early attacker. Stay on Target is an appealing option, but prevents her from taking an action. Opportunist is better on offense, but substantially more expensive.

The real competition would be Push the Limit, but Elusiveness is a little cheaper and offers a bit of extra kick on defense.

Elusiveness is a 2-pt Elite Talent that improves defense haphazardly.

Elusiveness generates stress as a cost, and is therefore once-per-round with most pilots.

• The haphazard nature of its re-roll means that its best used in conjunction with pilot abilities that prevent Focus Tokens or Focus-like Abilities (Palob Godalhi, Carnor Jax, Wes Jenson, et c.).

• Generating stress is great for Ibtisam, as mentioned, but Keyan Farlander may garner more use out of the upgrade, as he's the only pilot in the game who can use it multiple times in a round.

When flying alongside one of the Unfocused Pilots listed above, Sensor Jammers, Expert Handling, or Opportunist are what are typically being maximized.

Push the Limit is more reliable on Ibtisam, particularly in conjunction with the Jan Ors crew.

However, Push the Limit is often seen as Redundant on Keyan Farlander, as he's already spending the stress in lieu of his offensive Focus Token, and will therefore tend to make unwarrented barrel-rolls without the Jan Ors crew nearby.

Really wish they had let Captain Yorr break it, but that set a very unfortunate precedent with Opportunist, so I can understand why they didn't.

(I was there for the arguments at the time, y'see. Soontir Fel, Target Locked and Focused, throwing 7 attack dice at Range 3 was the threat, and this was before Wingman would let him reload more often! And so, the "Once per opportunity" rule and the "Stress as Cost" rules were invented/clarified ).

Elusiveness' biggest marginalizer is Lone Wolf these days: an Elite Talent of the same squad points that also buffs defense, yet does so with more safety and reliability, if you can keep its conditions met.

Secondarily, Expert Handling, which costs an action, provides a Barrel Roll, and removes a Target Lock from your ship. If the ship target-locked on you has 2 attack dice or more, you've gotten out from under the expected damage switch of Elusiveness in their both best-case scenario (i.e. that ship doesn't have a Focus Token as well).

If the ship has a Target Lock and a Focus on you, Elusiveness would only prevent 1/8 of a damage per round. Breaking the Target Lock would prevent 1.5/8 of a damage per round in that scenario (15/16-3/4=3/16=1.5/8), and so mitigates more damage. If they're playing with Target Locks, and not focuses, or the currently popular no-offensive-action-at-all.

In the currently popular no-offensive-action-at-all, wherin Predator is the name of the game, Elusiveness is actually pretty swell on its own. Reduce them by 1/2 of a damage, and they can't re-roll the die back. Sweet.

• Generating stress is great for Ibtisam, as mentioned, but Keyan Farlander may garner more use out of the upgrade, as he's the only pilot in the game who can use it multiple times in a round.

Interesting point. I hadn't considered that. What I don't like about Elusiveness on Keyan Farlander is that low Pilot Skill ships will shoot Keyan after he has already shot, so he won't be able to spend his stress tokens. And the enemies don't even need to be that low: PS 6 IG-2000's will be able to shoot Keyan at will, and he won't have the action economy he is used to.

In my book, if you've got a decimator and you're not rifling though your cards for expose, you're doing it wrong. With the impossible loss of agility, there's absolutely no reason not to.

I'd go Elusiveness and Sensor Jammer Zertik Strom and 6 Academies. *shrug*

TLT meta makes Sensor Jammer and Flight Instructor decent cards now.

That R2-F3 is it? Droid. The one that's an action to add an agility. Seems like a waste but since it's an 'action' header card that doesn't take the EPT slot you can use it and PtL another normal action out. I could see some sort of gimmick build where you put him on Biggs with a stealth device and feed him an evade with Kyle focus battery hand off with a conversion to evade via Jan Ors crew, and a Squad Leader Experimental Interface Wedge that feeds Biggs a focus haha. Now you have Biggs at 4/5 agility with both a focus and evade token. XD

Adrenaline Rush is a card I want so dearly to love but its opportunity cost is too high normally. It's worth a point but I could either get VI or get 2 more points off something else and get Predator or whatever. I think that it's a very good choice on Vader though, as it keeps his build lean and allows him 2 actions after a K-Turn, which is huge. Better choice than Crackshot IMO.

With Extra Munitions, getting an extra APT on Rhymer and running him with PtL doesn't seem too bad. That's what, 37 points? Add TIE MK II and that seems comparable to a Soontir or Vader or Deathrain. More fragile, and less maneuverable, but more burst damage. Higher risk, higher reward. IMO Rhymer's effect should be an aura like Jonus' while also effecting himself. If he's going to cost that much all the rest of my TIE Bombers should get range 3 Cluster Missiles also.

Work in progress for me, but I've always *wanted* to find a good use for APT

In the age of 2x high PS ships, I found it difficult to really come up with something good.

The core was this, Dutch and Garven with APT. Garven would move first, and focus, Dutch would move second and TL, passing another TL to Garven. Garven would have TL and focus to fire the APT first, spend his focus and give it to Dutch, who would now have a TL and focus to fire his APT.

That's the theory anyway, I revisited it in the context of the new upgrades available when I saw this thread, and I'd look at doing something like this.

The last 29 points, I'm not sure on, possibly some control elements? Blue + Ion cannon + E2 + Tactician?

In my book, if you've got a decimator and you're not rifling though your cards for expose, you're doing it wrong. With the impossible loss of agility, there's absolutely no reason not to.

An EPT slot, 4 points, and the action economy are all perfectly good reasons not to.

(Of course you can fix the action-economy problem with Experimental Interface, and now it's a 7-point combo. Which can be worthwhile in the right build, but… it's far from an auto-include.)

I will posit

Expose + experimental interface + bb8. Toss this on wedge, and you'll know if the agility will matter. Barrel roll, to dodge arc at p.s. 9, ei to activate expose, green to clear stress, regular action to focus or target lock. Hit R 1 for 5 dice vs - 1 agi and focus or target lock. You can run this on Poe, who has access to boost on top of roll.

Okay, I'll have a go.

Countermeasures.

A 3-point upgrade that eats up your precious modification slot and is a one-time use card. It's a pretty good defensive ability, increasing your agility value for the round and allowing you to discard a target lock on your ship.

• For 2-ship squads, increasing the agility of the Large ship can be extremely helpful against many incoming shots (unless you ask ficklegreendice)
• In an ordnance-heavy meta, removing Target Locks is very good (go see what Toryn Farr can do in Epic play!)
• Against ships with Fire-control system, you turn their TL+F into just Focus for the round, which is nice.

But there are some pretty big drawbacks

• Against 2-ship squads the cost may not be worth it
• Discard-to-use cards are iffy, especially when they cost 3 points. Even the awesome Adrenaline Rush is hard to justify at 1 point (see ParaGoomba Slayer's post above)
• It's Large Ship only, and we all know that large ships usually want Engine Upgrade. And at 3 points, you only need one more point to get the Engines, so Countermeasures is a tough sell.
• Ordnance-heavy meta? What in the galaxy is that?

However, I found a use for it that was pretty good. Before the most recent FAQ, ships could bypass Captain Kagi's ability by taking a lock on Kagi, and then attempting to target lock the next turn. Since Kagi was no longer a valid target, they were then free to lock onto my powerhouses such as Soontir Fel and Carnor Jax (especially Carnor). But with Countermeasures, Kagi could be target locked, and then at the start of the combat phase discard a lock, increase his agility value to 2, and laugh because now they have to target lock him again before they can lock onto my elite starfighters. It worked perfectly, and my opponents would often grumble at their lack of effective actions.

But now Kagi doesn't need the help of Countermeasures, and I can't justify the 3 points there when I really want him to have Sensor Jammer and Palpatine. So where else could it go?

• I could see it on Scum Boba to survive those Range 1 encounters, especially combined with Glitterstim (but Engine is so good on a Firespray)
• Kenkirk may like it to go from a 0 agility ship in the beginning to a 2 agility ship later on...But not too much later because 3 points for one extra defense die against a single attack is not worth it -- much better to be used when the swarm is strong and trying to bring you down.

Nothing else is jumping out at me. I mean, you can throw it on any large ship, but the above possibilities have some potential.

• Generating stress is great for Ibtisam, as mentioned, but Keyan Farlander may garner more use out of the upgrade, as he's the only pilot in the game who can use it multiple times in a round.

Interesting point. I hadn't considered that. What I don't like about Elusiveness on Keyan Farlander is that low Pilot Skill ships will shoot Keyan after he has already shot, so he won't be able to spend his stress tokens. And the enemies don't even need to be that low: PS 6 IG-2000's will be able to shoot Keyan at will, and he won't have the action economy he is used to.

Run him with an ally at lower PS with Decoy, and that's solved.

Okay, I'll have a go.

Countermeasures.

Before the most recent FAQ, ships could bypass Captain Kagi's ability by taking a lock on Kagi, and then attempting to target lock the next turn. Since Kagi was no longer a valid target, they were then free to lock onto my powerhouses such as Soontir Fel and Carnor Jax (especially Carnor). But with Countermeasures, Kagi could be target locked, and then at the start of the combat phase discard a lock, increase his agility value to 2, and laugh because now they have to target lock him again before they can lock onto my elite starfighters. It worked perfectly, and my opponents would often grumble at their lack of effective actions.

Man, I wish folks had mentioned this before the rules change. That's a good combo out of two rarely-used abilities!

I will posit

Expose + experimental interface + bb8. Toss this on wedge, and you'll know if the agility will matter. Barrel roll, to dodge arc at p.s. 9, ei to activate expose, green to clear stress, regular action to focus or target lock. Hit R 1 for 5 dice vs - 1 agi and focus or target lock. You can run this on Poe, who has access to boost on top of roll.

This is similar to using Expose+EI on a Decimator, but uses BB8 to regain some of the lost mobility.

Still, that 7 points (BB8 is worth it on his own) is MUCH more expensive on a small ship than it is on a large.

On Chiraneau, it adds a value of .4375 points to each HP your opponent kills.

On Wedge, it adds a value of 1.166..... points to each HP.

Considering that the combo assumes you're arc-dodging even the turreted ships, and that it adds less than a full point of damage per shot when compared to Predator (which is 4 points cheaper)....

Okay, I'll have a go.

Countermeasures.

A 3-point upgrade that eats up your precious modification slot and is a one-time use card. It's a pretty good defensive ability, increasing your agility value for the round and allowing you to discard a target lock on your ship.

• For 2-ship squads, increasing the agility of the Large ship can be extremely helpful against many incoming shots (unless you ask ficklegreendice)
• In an ordnance-heavy meta, removing Target Locks is very good (go see what Toryn Farr can do in Epic play!)
• Against ships with Fire-control system, you turn their TL+F into just Focus for the round, which is nice.

But there are some pretty big drawbacks

• Against 2-ship squads the cost may not be worth it
• Discard-to-use cards are iffy, especially when they cost 3 points. Even the awesome Adrenaline Rush is hard to justify at 1 point (see ParaGoomba Slayer's post above)
• It's Large Ship only, and we all know that large ships usually want Engine Upgrade. And at 3 points, you only need one more point to get the Engines, so Countermeasures is a tough sell.
• Ordnance-heavy meta? What in the galaxy is that?

However, I found a use for it that was pretty good. Before the most recent FAQ, ships could bypass Captain Kagi's ability by taking a lock on Kagi, and then attempting to target lock the next turn. Since Kagi was no longer a valid target, they were then free to lock onto my powerhouses such as Soontir Fel and Carnor Jax (especially Carnor). But with Countermeasures, Kagi could be target locked, and then at the start of the combat phase discard a lock, increase his agility value to 2, and laugh because now they have to target lock him again before they can lock onto my elite starfighters. It worked perfectly, and my opponents would often grumble at their lack of effective actions.

But now Kagi doesn't need the help of Countermeasures, and I can't justify the 3 points there when I really want him to have Sensor Jammer and Palpatine. So where else could it go?

• I could see it on Scum Boba to survive those Range 1 encounters, especially combined with Glitterstim (but Engine is so good on a Firespray)
• Kenkirk may like it to go from a 0 agility ship in the beginning to a 2 agility ship later on...But not too much later because 3 points for one extra defense die against a single attack is not worth it -- much better to be used when the swarm is strong and trying to bring you down.

Nothing else is jumping out at me. I mean, you can throw it on any large ship, but the above possibilities have some potential.

Against quad TLT on a generic Firespray with a Flight Instructor or Recon Spec. Heh, multiple Recon Specialists stack so you could put 3 on a Hound's Tooth and pop Countermeasures to have 2 agility and 4 focuses on a Hound's Tooth to help against quad TLT. XD

Work in progress for me, but I've always *wanted* to find a good use for APT

Advanced Proton Torpedoes are the most difficult ordnance in the game, but if you are focused for the actual attack, are almost a guaranteed 5 damage.

Best place I've seen of it recently? Esege Tuteku (or however you spell it). Now, you just have to worry about the range, as the modification largely takes care of itself.

Especially true if you're Garven Dreis.

--Snip--

Against quad TLT on a generic Firespray with a Flight Instructor or Recon Spec. Heh, multiple Recon Specialists stack so you could put 3 on a Hound's Tooth and pop Countermeasures to have 2 agility and 4 focuses on a Hound's Tooth to help against quad TLT. XD

Which is why we're unlikely to ever see a ship with multiple Crew slots at more than 1 Agility.

Can you imagine Recon + Recon + Jan Ors, in a 3 agility ship with Stealth Device? Baron Fel would think about trading up.

I'm going to call the triple rec spec Hound's Tooth the 'Silent Library'.

"Shhhh! We're trying to focus in here."

That R2-F2 is it? Droid. The one that's an action to add an agility. Seems like a waste but since it's an 'action' header card that doesn't take the EPT slot you can use it and PtL another normal action out. I could see some sort of gimmick build where you put him on Biggs with a stealth device and feed him an evade with Kyle focus battery hand off with a conversion to evade via Jan Ors crew, and a Squad Leader Experimental Interface Wedge that feeds Biggs a focus haha. Now you have Biggs at 4/5 agility with both a focus and evade token. XD

T-70 X-Wing gets Boost, and therefore Autothrusters.

Add this to the mix as a permanent Stealth Device, albeit one that costs an action, and you may be cookin' with kerosene.

Also, with defensive upgrades, you suddenly have 2 variables that can alter which is better, +1 die for an action, or a Focus/Evade token: Your current dice, and the number of attacks you'll weather between actions.

(Dice+1)*(3/8)*(Attacks) is the model for R2-F2

(Dice)*(3/8)*(Attacks-1)+(Dice)*(5/8) is the model for a Defensive Focus

(Dice)*(3/8)*(Attacks)+1 is the model for Evade

When Dice=4, Focus and Evade are equivalent. When Dice <4, Evade is superior. When Dice > 4, Focus is.

I will leave further math to you, as it's 12:45 AM and I need to sleep soon.

I'm going to call the triple rec spec Hound's Tooth the 'Silent Library'.

"Shhhh! We're trying to focus in here."

Studying the Skinner-Box experiments for psychology, no doubt.

Work in progress for me, but I've always *wanted* to find a good use for APT

Advanced Proton Torpedoes are the most difficult ordnance in the game, but if you are focused for the actual attack, are almost a guaranteed 5 damage.

Best place I've seen of it recently? Esege Tuteku (or however you spell it). Now, you just have to worry about the range, as the modification largely takes care of itself.

Especially true if you're Garven Dreis.

With regards to range, I have two favorite Advanced Proton Torpedoes carriers:

[38] Major Rhymer (Extra Munitions, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Push the Limit, Twin Ion Engine Mk. II)

With the range extended to range 2, and Push the Limit granting the requisite actions, Major Rhymer can deliver these babies pretty reliably.

[39] Nera Dantels (Extra Munitions, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Deadeye, B-wing/E2, Recon Specialist)

Rather than range outward, Nera can shoot these things out of arc at Range 1, and Recon Speciailst+Deadeye let's her get all the tokens she needs to make the attack devastating, all without needing to pick a target beforehand.

Of course, they are both RIDICULOUSLY expensive, and I don't claim that they are actually good. But they are fun, and they make your opponent think very hard about where they put their ships.

Work in progress for me, but I've always *wanted* to find a good use for APT

Advanced Proton Torpedoes are the most difficult ordnance in the game, but if you are focused for the actual attack, are almost a guaranteed 5 damage.

Best place I've seen of it recently? Esege Tuteku (or however you spell it). Now, you just have to worry about the range, as the modification largely takes care of itself.

Especially true if you're Garven Dreis.

Guri's also a great home for APT. You just have to make sure you get the lock and arc in place, and the rest takes care of itself.

Ugh. I need a break of life. Here goes:

DAREDEVIL!

Everyone's heard of the Oicunn + Dauntless + EU + Daredevil build. For the double smash for double stress.

I've theorized about this a lot, and in general, I think its not viable: Not being able to catch whatever you hit the next turn and still having no action is just not very good. You lose wayy too much efficiency for the 10 points you attached to Oicunn. And honestly, only the 4 EU points are really good. Oicunn also honestly just doesn't add up to the power of Kenkirk and Chiraneau. Especially now that Injured Pilot isn't in the damage deck anymore!

I know I've heard of some people in NOVA I think who had a Oicunn meta, but I haven't heard enough to make a decision on that.

This is the best build I Can think of. But its not good. Honestly, I'd rather have the much easier to fly Palpkirk Vader/Soontir

Captain Oicunn (42)

[38] Major Rhymer (Extra Munitions, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Push the Limit, Twin Ion Engine Mk. II)

...

[39] Nera Dantels (Extra Munitions, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Deadeye, B-wing/E2, Recon Specialist)

I think Rhymer is the much better build of the 2.

I'm just not sold on Nera, Range 1 is tough to get to unscathed, I just don't see spending 4 (B2 + RecSpec) more points to get get the 8 (APT + EM) you've already spent to be effective. It's the Expose + EI problem, only more expensive and you can only use it twice. There is some use for RecSpec after the torpedoes are fired, but for a 1 agility ship, not much.

Rhymer, by comparison, only spends the 8, as PTL + TIE mkII are still very useful after the Torpedoes are fired, and he has a better chance of getting them where they need to go due to his pilot ability.

Ugh. I need a break of life. Here goes:

DAREDEVIL!

<snip>

I've been thinking of Scum Kath with Daredevil + K4 + EU. I get a better feel for the game when I actually play, my theory crafting is weaker than I'd like, but, I think between boost, daredevil and K4, I should be able to point the booty guns where I want with a Target Lock.

Ugh. I need a break of life. Here goes:

DAREDEVIL!

<snip>

I've been thinking of Scum Kath with Daredevil + K4 + EU. I get a better feel for the game when I actually play, my theory crafting is weaker than I'd like, but, I think between boost, daredevil and K4, I should be able to point the booty guns where I want with a Target Lock.

I like that you're thinking. =)

But, she gets expensive fast and dies fast. Firesprays really don't measure up to Falcons in terms of stay-ability.

Also PS7 is pretty hard for getting Chiraneau, or Soontir, OR Vader OR Han. I'd be scared.

Kath Scarlet (Scum) (38)