Messing around with text (I don't have the font right for the "Modification" header), this is the somewhat underwhelming conclusion I came to: change a focus or hit result to a crit.

Any better suggestions?

I really hope it says:

"When attacking with a [T] or

[M] secondary weapon, you"

Missiles are already outpacing torps in action economy.

Im sorry but it still seems like the Imperials are being the most punished by ordinance at this point with two fully designated ordinance carriers. The whole point in Jonus is that he makes your chances of all hits essentially guaranteed, although he is a weak link.

Predator - The only bombers that can take this are Rhymer or Jonus, now watch Jonus die even faster when loaded up. Do this with Rhymer and then he has a very large target pointed on him. Imperials don't have droids/titles that give us an EPT. Predator has a home on the advanced, defender and possibly the TAP due to dog fighting capability with/after ordinance.

Deadeye - nope, not for Imperials, Rebels sure can use it.

Glitterstim - we don't have illicit slots (might as well toss in R4 agromech and Genius too).

Crackshot - same as deadeye.

Jan Ors - not an Imperial pilot. (same goes for Aiern, Garven and Dutch). No free meals, or should I say actions, for the Imperials Im afraid.

XX-23S Thread Tracers - Should be retitled "Blount & Tala alpha strike." If you don't hit with this as an Imperial and you planned to have a bunch of focused/TL bombers you will be ****ed. Who wants to shoot this? Jonus. Who doesn't want to shoot this? Jonus.

Bombardier - Azzameen loves it and the rebel K-Wing could use it if you had a spare point and nothing better to spend it on (you sure you can't make the points for C3PO, R2-D2 or navigator?). Hmmm, Imperials...not seeing strong potential on the firespray or decimator.

Imperials are not up to parity and I don't see that changing unless we start to get better Imperial-only upgrades/equipment. The 2014 World Results were downright negative for Imperial Ordinance carriers, and I speculate aside from Deathrain throwing seismic charges and conner nets around we will not be seeing any designated Imperial ordinance carriers at Worlds 2015. Im up for discussion, please tell me how these upgrades and synergies make ordinance good for Imperials (instead of okay, because we have two designated ships that need ordinance to be better so they can actually perform).

seems fine to be, except it may be "2" or lower considering who it's coming with (Inq Tie, Punishing One) and makes it'll limit the ordnance to ships that are not effective at attacking normally (inq tie, a-wing, bombers, y-wings, k-wings, punishers, z-95s, non-punishing pogos etc)

can't see the # for ****, though.

I thought the same thing in context of the ships it came with, that it would probably be a "2". But upon staring at it real hard, a "3" seemed more likely.

Wait, I have specks on my glasses ... lemme rethink this...

I really hope it says:

"When attacking with a [T] or

[M] secondary weapon, you"

Missiles are already outpacing torps in action economy.

I would love that, too.

But I don't think it works for spacing on the card.

Im sorry but it still seems like the Imperials are being the most punished by ordinance at this point with two fully designated ordinance carriers. The whole point in Jonus is that he makes your chances of all hits essentially guaranteed, although he is a weak link.

the irony here is that Redline is a Punisher

Let's wait to see what the Guidance Chimp does.

I really hope it says:

"When attacking with a [T] or

[M] secondary weapon, you"

Missiles are already outpacing torps in action economy.

I would love that, too.

But I don't think it works for spacing on the card.

Seems about the same to me. Hard to estimate the exact size of their [torp] symbol. Keep in mind that the Jumpmaster comes with 2 copies of this card and it only has torps.

Im sorry but it still seems like the Imperials are being the most punished by ordinance at this point with two fully designated ordinance carriers. The whole point in Jonus is that he makes your chances of all hits essentially guaranteed, although he is a weak link.

Predator - The only bombers that can take this are Rhymer or Jonus, now watch Jonus die even faster when loaded up. Do this with Rhymer and then he has a very large target pointed on him. Imperials don't have droids/titles that give us an EPT. Predator has a home on the advanced, defender and possibly the TAP due to dog fighting capability with/after ordinance.

Deadeye - nope, not for Imperials, Rebels sure can use it.

Glitterstim - we don't have illicit slots (might as well toss in R4 agromech and Genius too).

Crackshot - same as deadeye.

Jan Ors - not an Imperial pilot. (same goes for Aiern, Garven and Dutch). No free meals, or should I say actions, for the Imperials Im afraid.

XX-23S Thread Tracers - Should be retitled "Blount & Tala alpha strike." If you don't hit with this as an Imperial and you planned to have a bunch of focused/TL bombers you will be ****ed. Who wants to shoot this? Jonus. Who doesn't want to shoot this? Jonus.

Bombardier - Azzameen loves it and the rebel K-Wing could use it if you had a spare point and nothing better to spend it on (you sure you can't make the points for C3PO, R2-D2 or navigator?). Hmmm, Imperials...not seeing strong potential on the firespray or decimator.

Imperials are not up to parity and I don't see that changing unless we start to get better Imperial-only upgrades/equipment. The 2014 World Results were downright negative for Imperial Ordinance carriers, and I speculate aside from Deathrain throwing seismic charges and conner nets around we will not be seeing any designated Imperial ordinance carriers at Worlds 2015. Im up for discussion, please tell me how these upgrades and synergies make ordinance good for Imperials (instead of okay, because we have two designated ships that need ordinance to be better so they can actually perform).

Speaking of guidance chimp. Let's wait to see what that does before saying the bomber is dead. Can always load the S-Thread on the Inquisitor hisself.

[...]

Speaking of guidance chimp. Let's wait to see what that does before saying the bomber is dead. Can always load the S-Thread on the Inquisitor hisself.

als (instead of okay, because we have two designated ships that need ordinance to be better so they can actually perform).

I agree, Im excited. I was wondering if maybe it could be in the tech slot for new ships, seeing as how they hadn't decided on the symbol (or FFG was coy) when they released the article.

Im sorry but it still seems like the Imperials are being the most punished by ordinance at this point with two fully designated ordinance carriers. The whole point in Jonus is that he makes your chances of all hits essentially guaranteed, although he is a weak link.

Tie Bombers are not the only ships that can take Ordnance. Tie Advanced can take it and there are a lot of pilots with EPTs out there now. We will soon have the V1, as well.

I've been thinking, recently, that if it were possible to do over again, I'd differentiate torpedoes and missiles in a very concrete way:

Torpedoes - These would throw lots of dice, but those dice cannot be modified in any way, except by themselves or by cards that specifically say so.

Missiles - These would be more like current missiles and torpedoes, except that they would always keep their TLs.

So, basically, torpedoes would represent something slow-moving and largely luck-dependent (or Force-ability dependent ... ) on whether you hit with it, while missiles would have active guidance (represented by keeping the TL and being able to modify the shot).

I'm also intrigued by the concept of Drones: these would be ordnance, reflected by a token with guides, that you release, and then it moves on its own. It could be shot down.

Some examples of torpedoes:

Proton Torpedo [torp], Attack: TL required (and spent), R 2-3, 7 dice, turn one [eyeball] to [crit]. (Remember, these dice cannot be otherwise modified.)

Proton Rocket [torp], Attack: Focus required (not spent), R 1, 6 dice. Against a target with AGI 0, you may modify dice using focus tokens or ability to change [eyeballs].

An example drone:

Rancor Drone, Attack: no requirement. Choose one target beyond Range 3 and assign it a "Targeted" token. Each turn, at PS 0, the Rancor Drone's controller may perform any 3-speed maneuver with the drone counter. If the drone counter's template or counter overlaps the target ship, the drone detonates: roll 3 attack dice and the ship against which the drone detonates takes any damage rolled. The Rancor Drone is AGI 5 and 2 HP.

These are mostly just off the top of my head, so I'm not claiming they're balanced, as is. I just think doing something like this would have been an excellent way to make ordnance distinct and effective. But, you know, benefit of hindsight and all that.

I don't know if ordnance will ever be quite to everyone's liking because if it becomes a super efficient way to attack we get crazy alpha strike lists that end up having games decided on turn 2.

Im sorry but it still seems like the Imperials are being the most punished by ordinance at this point with two fully designated ordinance carriers. The whole point in Jonus is that he makes your chances of all hits essentially guaranteed, although he is a weak link.

Tie Bombers are not the only ships that can take Ordnance. Tie Advanced can take it and there are a lot of pilots with EPTs out there now. We will soon have the V1, as well.

Yes, the advanced (and defender) can be strong with prockets and predator rerolls, this will probably be the case with the TAP. What I was stating is that the Tie Bomber and Punisher are designated ordinance carriers and unless ordinance comes up to par points wise it will always be more effective to spend points on other ships/mods. The ordinance carrier is something unique to Imperials, I love it, the problem is that their role suffers because ordinance is okay and that is their entire purpose. I cringe at the thought of Rhymer all kitted out, he will have a lot of points invested in him and I don't think he will have enough presence on the board. Extra munitions helped Imperials the most, but we still need something to make up the difference and I don't think the XX-23 Thread Tracers are going to do it, they are better for the Rebels than the Imperials, Blount is going to blow things away with his squads alpha strike guaranteed. The thread tracers seem more like a way to deter two ship meta than a ordinance fix, they are not as easy to get to stick and use against most small ships.

looking to the future of ordnance, I have my eyes on a few ships

(ify) The Old Timer, Rhymer + PTL + T.I.E mk2 + Advance protons + munitions (as above)

If you are paying the points for Rhymer and not carrying advanced homers,

looking to the future of ordnance, I have my eyes on a few ships

(ify) The Old Timer, Rhymer + PTL + T.I.E mk2 + Advance protons + munitions (as above)

If you are paying the points for Rhymer and not carrying advanced homers, I think you are missing out.(...)

Expensive as hell, but i plan to test Adv Proton Torps, EM, Markmanship on Rhymer. Will hit really hard. And as already spent precious points for an EM, maybe load some missile or bomb on him, as you get double out of any further invested points. Need however something else beside him which also has the "hit here" sign on it. Or lots of Ties shielding him.

Why waste points on marksmanship for rhymer?

Rhymers already an overpriced glass cannon, no reason to tack on more crap when PTL does the same work generating focus only better (can use with roll in a pinch to dodge and set up locks)

EI is also two points more than T.I.E mk2, which is actually useful on ptl rhymer

Where talking about a wildly overpriced pilot sporting wildly overpriced ordnance. For the love of the dark side, man, cut points where you can !

My understanding was that Wave 7 was the fix for bombs, but didn't do much for missiles or torpedoes.

Wave 7 was supposed to be the fix but lest face it it was more of the wave of the turret and not bombs or torpedoes.

Define fixed?

I don't think you can run ordnance like you can run TLT's or HLC's. I think ordnance has *some* applications now, rather than being too situational to ever use. It's there to give a ship another trick, rather than the ship being the delivery for the great new missiles you want to fire.

For example, played against a Scum Fett + Glitter + Cluster missiles recently. It's pretty devastating if you can get in R1 of a few enemies, and the damage potential 'feels' like 6 points worth.

Is it valid to weigh the cost to your squad of a single missile/torpedo against the cost to your opponent's squad of hull/shield upgrades?

As in, a 4-point single-use weapon that has a near guarantee of dealing more than one shield's worth of damage thus becomes points well spent?

This calculus would assume optimal pilot/munition pairings.

Calculus? I think you are confused with which math to use, no limits and integration here. It is statistics and this math is solid.

3 dice with selected rerolls is better than 4 dice with no rerolls (even if you have the single dice modification). Now again you bring up a good point about measuring the squad type that other player might be running. The fact is most torpedoes and missiles are good against a single type of unit. So plasma torpedoes which will tear up B-wings are useless against a TIE swarm or a scum list with many 1 shielded ships.

Not useless! A four dice attack without bonus for defender at range 3. Make that attack with a focus and you might be one shotting a Tie. I wouldn't want to wander to close to this squad no matter what I was flying.

Blue Squadron Pilot (22) x3

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Extra Munitions (2)

Lieutenant Blount (17)

Veteran Instincts (1)

XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

yeah but I could use HLC and keep the target lock along with denying dice. And yes the dice statistics might be slightly better with losing the target lock for 1 more attack dice and denying the range bonuses but only by 1 %. That is not enough to clear autothrusters. Besides once you clear that range 3 band the statistics flip in favor of saving the target lock for primary weapon attacks. Dice statistics are only 3rd of the meta, list composition and positioning is the other two and list composition takes a big part especially with MOV. Remember every point you spend on a ship is more points you give to your opponent when it is destroyed. If it is not keeping the ship on the table that is 4 more points to your opponents MOV.

Why waste points on marksmanship for rhymer?

Rhymers already an overpriced glass cannon, no reason to tack on more crap when PTL does the same work generating focus only better (can use with roll in a pinch to dodge and set up locks)

EI is also two points more than T.I.E mk2, which is actually useful on ptl rhymer

Where talking about a wildly overpriced pilot sporting wildly overpriced ordnance. For the love of the dark side, man, cut points where you can !

Or just load him with AHMs and forget about PTL altogether - 3 dice with a reroll is usually enough to get the single hit you need through

AHMs are stupidly gimmicky though

me? I'd take the five damage any day against anything that wasn't corran

Why waste points on marksmanship for rhymer?

Rhymers already an overpriced glass cannon, no reason to tack on more crap when PTL does the same work generating focus only better (can use with roll in a pinch to dodge and set up locks)

EI is also two points more than T.I.E mk2, which is actually useful on ptl rhymer

Where talking about a wildly overpriced pilot sporting wildly overpriced ordnance. For the love of the dark side, man, cut points where you can !

I want to try even sub-potimal builds With APTs you do not need focus, so you do not need necessarily PTL for action economy.

PTL also has the problem that you are forced to do a green move afterwards if you immediately want a new TL for the next shot.

In the long run PTL might pay. But in the long run, a bomber is relatively useless for a long run, it has only 2 attack dice and a relatively crappy dial, and suffers badly from crits. Not sure if PTL is worth it.

AHMs are stupidly gimmicky though

me? I'd take the five damage any day against anything that wasn't corran

Agreed on that AHMs are too expensive on Rhymer, after all you deal only one crit. It is nice to punch that crit through under a lot of shields, but it's still only 1 crit.

Tested Rhymer today in the constellation i named above, APT, EM, Markmanship. 2 games: 2 times totally crippled an Y-wing (barely alive with active 2 crits) after one shot - effectively removing them from the game as it was Damaged Sensor Array and such. Removed all shields on a B-wing with just one shot. Expensive, yes, but brutal!

[Edit: spellcheck, and one more reply]