Gamblers have Deception of course, how else would they mislead and bluff? But what about understanding if others are bluffing, shouldn`t they have Discipline for that? I see they have Cool, should that be used against Deception in a gambling scenario where you are prepared for the game and you expect gamblers to try and bluff you?

Of course a Gambler could have high willpower or buy Discipline ranks as a non-career skill, but still, it makes me wonder what they were going for with having Cool instead...

I know the word Gambler doesn`t exactly scream neither Wilpower nor Discipline, but how would they call a bluff?

I imagine it's because a Gambler has little to no impulse control, they can help themselves and often tell themselves "just 1 more round." They live a fine line between control and addiction.

That's my take anyway.

I imagine it's because a Gambler has little to no impulse control, they can help themselves and often tell themselves "just 1 more round." They live a fine line between control and addiction.

That's my take anyway.

And I like it! I have a Herglic Big Game Hunter/Trader with a Gambling Addiction. He has a decent Deception but only one green die in dicipline. I guess it fits.

Perception (which the Smuggler has as a career skill) would be the more likely the way to see through bluffing. And gambling is (RAW in the Core Rules) a competitive Cool/Deception check, so in some situations the Cool skill could be used to opposed Deception, or Deception could be used to out-bluff your opponent I don't see Discipline coming into the mix so much.

However, Discipline would be an excellently flavorful skill to use in playing cards. Knowing when enough is enough, combating that gambler's high, like Richardbuxton suggests!

On a warm summer's eve

On a train bound for nowhere

I met up with the gambler

We were both too tired to sleep

So we took turns a-starin'

Out the window at the darkness

The boredom overtook us,

And he began to speak

He said, "Son, I've made a life

Out of readin' people's faces

Knowin' what the cards were

By the way they held their eyes

So if you don't mind me sayin'

I can see you're out of aces

For a taste of your whiskey

I'll give you some advice"

So I handed him my bottle

And he drank down my last swallow

Then he bummed a cigarette

And asked me for a light

And the night got deathly quiet

And his face lost all expression

He said, "If you're gonna play the game, boy

You gotta learn to play it right

You've got to know when to hold 'em

Know when to fold 'em

Know when to walk away

And know when to run

You never count your money

When you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for counting

When the dealin's done

Every gambler knows

That the secret to survivin'

Is knowin' what to throw away

And knowin' what to keep

'Cause every hand's a winner

And every hand's a loser

And the best that you can hope for is to die

In your sleep

And when he finished speakin'

He turned back toward the window

Crushed out his cigarette

And faded off to sleep

And somewhere in the darkness

The gambler he broke even

But in his final words

I found an ace that I could keep

You've got to know when to hold 'em

Know when to fold 'em

Know when to walk away

And know when to run

You never count your money

When you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for countin'

When the dealin's done

You've got to know when to hold 'em (when to hold 'em)

Know when to fold 'em (when to fold 'em)

Know when to walk away

And know when to run

You never count your money

When you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for countin'

When the dealin's done

You've got to know when to hold 'em

Know when to fold 'em

Know when to walk away

And know when to run

You never count your money

When you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for countin'

When the dealin's done

Perception (which the Smuggler has as a career skill) would be the more likely the way to see through bluffing. And gambling is (RAW in the Core Rules) a competitive Cool/Deception check, so in some situations the Cool skill could be used to opposed Deception, or Deception could be used to out-bluff your opponent I don't see Discipline coming into the mix so much.

However, Discipline would be an excellently flavorful skill to use in playing cards. Knowing when enough is enough, combating that gambler's high, like Richardbuxton suggests!

But no Perception if you take Gambler as a second Spec. But no matter, your post was really helpful! Where can I read about gambling per the rules?

Perception (which the Smuggler has as a career skill) would be the more likely the way to see through bluffing. And gambling is (RAW in the Core Rules) a competitive Cool/Deception check, so in some situations the Cool skill could be used to opposed Deception, or Deception could be used to out-bluff your opponent I don't see Discipline coming into the mix so much.

However, Discipline would be an excellently flavorful skill to use in playing cards. Knowing when enough is enough, combating that gambler's high, like Richardbuxton suggests!

But no Perception if you take Gambler as a second Spec. But no matter, your post was really helpful! Where can I read about gambling per the rules?

And just because it isn't a Career Skill, doesn't mean you can't buy ranks in it...

Perception (which the Smuggler has as a career skill) would be the more likely the way to see through bluffing. And gambling is (RAW in the Core Rules) a competitive Cool/Deception check, so in some situations the Cool skill could be used to opposed Deception, or Deception could be used to out-bluff your opponent I don't see Discipline coming into the mix so much.

However, Discipline would be an excellently flavorful skill to use in playing cards. Knowing when enough is enough, combating that gambler's high, like Richardbuxton suggests!

But no Perception if you take Gambler as a second Spec. But no matter, your post was really helpful! Where can I read about gambling per the rules?

And just because it isn't a Career Skill, doesn't mean you can't buy ranks in it...

Like I said in the OP:)

Perception (which the Smuggler has as a career skill) would be the more likely the way to see through bluffing. And gambling is (RAW in the Core Rules) a competitive Cool/Deception check, so in some situations the Cool skill could be used to opposed Deception, or Deception could be used to out-bluff your opponent I don't see Discipline coming into the mix so much.

However, Discipline would be an excellently flavorful skill to use in playing cards. Knowing when enough is enough, combating that gambler's high, like Richardbuxton suggests!

But no Perception if you take Gambler as a second Spec. But no matter, your post was really helpful! Where can I read about gambling per the rules?

So there's the standard Gambling rules on page 108 of the EotE Core Rulebook (Gambling: Cool and Deception "sidebar").

There's also more in-depth, specific rules for sabacc in the free official PDF module Under a Black Sun, page 27. There they outline that Cool is the only "standard" skill (since bluffing is really part and parcel of a card game like sabacc; you can't play properly without bluffing, so it should just be part of the narrative of the check). Deception, Computer, and/or Skulduggery are used to cheat. The rules also utilize a Force Die as a randomizer, which I think is awesome.

Someone Disciplined invests their money in solid businesses, they don't throw it at games of chance.

Someone Disciplined invests their money in solid businesses, they don't throw it at games of chance.

Someone Disciplined invests their money in solid businesses, they don't throw it at games of chance.

Unless you have a sure fire system that can't lose!

The casinos aren't big and pretty cuz they lose.

"How many fingers am I holding up behind my back?"

"Three!"

"Sorry, no it's four!"

"I can never win at this game!"

On a warm summer's eve

On a train bound for nowhere

I met up with the gambler

We were both too tired to sleep

So we took turns a-starin'

Out the window at the darkness

The boredom overtook us,

And he began to speak

He said, "Son, I've made a life

Out of readin' people's faces

Knowin' what the cards were

By the way they held their eyes

So if you don't mind me sayin'

I can see you're out of aces

For a taste of your whiskey

I'll give you some advice"

So I handed him my bottle

And he drank down my last swallow

Then he bummed a cigarette

And asked me for a light

And the night got deathly quiet

And his face lost all expression

He said, "If you're gonna play the game, boy

You gotta learn to play it right

You've got to know when to hold 'em

Know when to fold 'em

Know when to walk away

And know when to run

You never count your money

When you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for counting

When the dealin's done

Every gambler knows

That the secret to survivin'

Is knowin' what to throw away

And knowin' what to keep

'Cause every hand's a winner

And every hand's a loser

And the best that you can hope for is to die

In your sleep

And when he finished speakin'

He turned back toward the window

Crushed out his cigarette

And faded off to sleep

And somewhere in the darkness

The gambler he broke even

But in his final words

I found an ace that I could keep

You've got to know when to hold 'em

Know when to fold 'em

Know when to walk away

And know when to run

You never count your money

When you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for countin'

When the dealin's done

You've got to know when to hold 'em (when to hold 'em)

Know when to fold 'em (when to fold 'em)

Know when to walk away

And know when to run

You never count your money

When you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for countin'

When the dealin's done

You've got to know when to hold 'em

Know when to fold 'em

Know when to walk away

And know when to run

You never count your money

When you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for countin'

When the dealin's done

In case someone doesn't know the song:

The casinos aren't big and pretty cuz they lose.

I could see Discipline working for a card-counting scheme, but then you'd be back at "cheating" Roll a Despair, you get taken out back...for a "conversation."

The casinos aren't big and pretty cuz they lose.

I could see Discipline working for a card-counting scheme, but then you'd be back at "cheating" Roll a Despair, you get taken out back...for a "conversation."

I think 'schemes' at gambling are included in the fact you use Deception for cheating when gambling.

I think 'schemes' at gambling are included in the fact you use Deception for cheating when gambling.

They can be (also Skulduggery might do the trick), but I'm thinking something more along these lines: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478087/

Discipline, Knowledge (Education), Cool, Deception, Skulduggery, and Perception could all be used in this sort of scenario. I'm just outlining possibilities.

I think 'schemes' at gambling are included in the fact you use Deception for cheating when gambling.

They can be (also Skulduggery might do the trick), but I'm thinking something more along these lines: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478087/

Discipline, Knowledge (Education), Cool, Deception, Skulduggery, and Perception could all be used in this sort of scenario. I'm just outlining possibilities.

I answered this in another thread, the problem with constantly swapping skills where there are some spelled out, is that you both dilute the point of having individual skills assigned, as well as, diminish the design of the specs themselves or allow them to be maxed in a way beyond their original intent. Given the stat/skill synergy you only increase the ability of min/maxers to do just that if they can get in the habit of creating some throw down explanation for skill checks constantly.

It's hard enough to keep PCs challenged without handing them the ability to more or less constantly ignore stat and skill parameters.

Rest assured; I am not advocating the constant ignoring of stats and skill parameters. They are there for a reason. That being said...

The flexibility of this system, the ability it has to bend and mold itself around the situations in which PCs find themselves, is something I've always prized. Situational sensitivity is important, IMO. The rules are there to provide a framework, and as a GM and player, I am of course sensitive to what effects might cheapen others. But refusing to be flexible with what skill goes where, again IMO, cheapens the system.

The answer to the particular problem outlined above is (to take a page out of Jay Little's book) that you simply increase the difficulty when "swapping" skills.

GM: I'd really like Grisbo to be able to use his Knowledge (Education) skill to cheat at cards, since he's an accomplished mathematician. Normal Skulduggery Difficulty for the competitive check would be at , So...

GM: "It's a competitive check to play this card game, and it's the four of you PCs plus 3 other NPCs all betting at the same table. Grisbo, you can make a Hard Knowledge (Education) check to count the cards. I'll be spending a Destiny Point to upgrade the difficulty, since you aren't particularly cool or stealthy, and you could give yourself away rather badly. Everyone else playing normally, please roll an Average Cool or Deception check."

--

Furthermore, the game developers change things up in their modules! As I mentioned above, the "standard" rules for gambling are that you can use Cool or Deception, and neither is considered cheating. But when playing sabacc according to the rules in Under a Black Sun, using Deception is considered cheating, along with Computers and the standard Skullduggery. I don't believe the developers have cheapened anything here; they simply taken the framework of the rules and applied them to a specific situation where Deception not really a "kosher" skill to use, and doing so can land you in a heap of trouble. They have also included Computers, since one could feasibly slice into a sabacc deck with a computer and get them to act according to his design. They didn't cheapen Skullduggery, they simply gave other skills some love.

So, when the situation calls for it, I say be free! Change what you like, but always be aware of what you're changing and make sure that you are keeping things balanced, either with narrative measures, mechanical measures, or both.

I'm still not sure about the idea of Deception counting as cheating in Sabacc. I know that's what they suggest, but it doesn't feel right.

Take the situation with Lando vs Han on Cloud City (novel The Hutt Gambit or Rebel Dawn, can't remember exactly which one, but it's how Han acquires the Falcon), Han had True Sabacc the only hand that could beat it would have been The Idiot's Array, which Lando had a card relating to openly shown 'in stasis'. With this situation I would put this down to a competitive check, Lando using Deception (hasn't actually got the complete Idiot's Array, but is trying to bluff Han that he has), and Han using Cool (he doesn't know that Lando doesn't have the winning hand and has to keep his cool to not fold, as well as hoping like hell that his cards don't suddenly switch to something else).

Computers and Skulduggery would certainly count as cheating, due to the electronic systems involved in the game. But Deception I've always thought was valid and not considered cheating.

Completely agree with Richard's comment about 'just 1 more round' mentality of gamblers and the lack of Discipline skill.

Computers and Skulduggery would certainly count as cheating, due to the electronic systems involved in the game. But Deception I've always thought was valid and not considered cheating.

Couldn`t all three be used, depending on how the player describes it?

Computers and Skulduggery would certainly count as cheating, due to the electronic systems involved in the game. But Deception I've always thought was valid and not considered cheating.

Couldn`t all three be used, depending on how the player describes it?

Well, yes I suppose. It depends on how Deception is interpreted I guess and how that relates to 'cheating' at the game, for example the gaming table has been rigged using Computers or Skulduggery before the game, during the game you know **** well you can't lose, but you have to act 'surprised' when things happen to go your way.

Cool could, in my mind, be used to bluff as well as read others. Since bluffing is such an integral part of a card game like sabacc, I'd argue it doesn't merit a separate skill check. If you suck at bluffing, you're gonna lose; that's just the way the game is.

Deception would probably be misdirecting your opponents' attention long enough to pull a fast one; maybe introducing a skifter into the game, stacking the deck, or intentionally trying to cause a misdeal.