It means the crane decks were so dominant at one point they won the vast majority of the tournaments which had a prize in which one personality in your deck enlightened. It is just a symbol of the clunky game balance L5R had.

À more recent exemple would be how the mantis actually ran out of symbols to save...

AEG was emphatically terrible at game balance, as well. And they reacted with salt when people pointed this out.

In all fairness to AEG, a huge part of the problem has always been that the bulk of the playerbase was extremely terrible at actually using meta against anything that wasn't straight-up military, even when such meta was both plentiful and powerful. This often resulted in a deck tearing apart the mid-tier scene (regional tournaments, etc) but being torn apart at the true high-end event where people were willing to actually *use* the freaking meta. A secondary element of the problem is that the playerbase gets up in arm whenever control or blitz rear their ugly head, so we end up with an environment where whoever has the best mid-range deck, wins.

(Early Diamond, where Crane was oh-so-broken, right up until the DT actually posted a "How to beat the Crane" article on Alderac's site, at which point Crane win ratio dropped rather notably, is a good case in point).

Not to say that AEG wasn't terrible at balance - they were. The problem is, the only people worse at L5R balance than AEG were the players.

The idea of icons from Onyx edition sounds like the right sort of idea to push the larger narrative through a focused set of personalities, items, and locations.

Do you have a link or something that explains the idea of icons as it relates to L5r and Onyx? A quick brief is fine, it's just not a term I've seen thrown around before now in discussing this. I can take some guesses, but better not to.

This was the generalized statement AEG made about icons . Of course, we don't know how AEG would have ultimately gone with the idea besides some sort of card, but the idea of a much smaller list of those personalities and places given a larger role in the story is something I think FFG should capitalize on. It would be a great way to build up its idea of the world and avoid being overwhelmed.

I suppose the initial list would be clan champions but perhaps a secondary person for each clan that to fall back on or to provide a different perspective.

Some of the results of this icon drive: link

Thanks for the info! I don't love the notion of the "steal" (especially one that only Spider can do). But otherwise seems like a cool idea, and in the ballpark of the scope I expect -- i.e. not a wild expansion beyond the kind of thing FFG's done for ANR. Although I do think it'd probably be simplified quite a bit for FFG, like ditching the supplementary Emperor's action thing. Maybe making the participation vote for the card instead? Not really sure what qualified players for input in the ANR events off hand.

FWIW, I think that the non-Spider "steals" were a later-added notion. I think that the original conception was that the players would be identifying the core concepts they wanted to save from the coming storm. But by the time Kotei season rolled around, there had been a change in brand managers. And the new brand manager was, to all appearances, very focused on pushing inter-clan squabbling (despite having inherited a plot line that was really more set up as a Jigoku v. Rokugan plot), and wanted to move the plot he had inherited away from the original 'weather the storm of darkness' vibe. So I believe that the ability to "steal" other Clan's icons was a twist from him.

As for the corruption of an icon ... there's a lot more precedent for that. While the prizes on offer were, IMHO, over the top, a Shadowlands win having an effect of corrupting something from another Clan is really the traditional Shadowlands prize (although not in a "pick whatever you want" style).

Personally, I believe that the ultimate setup of the story prizes for the 2015 Spring Kotei season was not a good one. It did succeed at generating short-term internet yelling, and was (I believe) very appealing to a certain type of high-level tournament player who is more interested in having a big impact of some sort and (for some) trolling other players than in the overall story. But, to me, the notion of a single Kotei win theoretically being able to radically alter a fundamental part of the setting is self-defeating in the long run. It is, to me, the crowning apex of too much story prize, trying to make a particular tournament exciting at the expense of the long-run health of the story/setting and, therefore, the brand.

I think that I remember there being "Save, Steal Friendly, Steal Unfriendly, Spider Corrupt" from the start.

I'm going further back to the original concept with the icons and Onyx Edition, not just the Kotei announcement.

FWIW, there was a ramping up of the significance of the 'hostile save' after that announcement (which did not itself talk about 'stealing' or the icon otherwise being unavailable to the original clan). AEG played that aspect up later when doing mid-season promotion. But I was thinking further back than that.

Regardless of its precise genesis, however, my point stands about whether it was a good idea as a prize. You're either ripping up the setting for random Kotei wins, or you're saying your going to and then you don't really follow through (which, let's face it, happened quite a lot with supposedly setting-changing story results).

First, let me just say that the Crane Enlightened thing wouldn't have been nearly so bad if AEG hadn't ALSO decided to add mechanical benefits to the trait in the CCG. Having an extra keyword can have mechanical benefits in and of itself, adding stuff on top of that was almost like a snowball effect.

YES! L5R has at it's core the differentiating feature of an interactive story line. Lose that and L5R loses the thing that makes it unique. That said, winning a Kotei or similar event should be worth (at most) a card credit and a non-mechnical keyword on a faction appropriate personality, with the personality in question getting some significant role in an unfolding plot line. A Gencon/Euro Champs win should be similar, but with personality getting a role in a major plot line. Faction votes should present individual players with a broad stroke, not unlike the Path choices, but maybe a little more generic. For instance, setup the story plot points. Give a brief overview of the initial state of things. Then present each clan with the options to focus on specific things in a rank order, like: Internal physical threats to Rokugan, External Physical threats to Rokugan, Spiritual threats to Rokugan, Threats to the Emperor, or threats to that clan's power. Based on how the polling goes as each plot point unfolds have the clans responding to those events as appropriate (but hopefully in a way that makes each clans responses unique, i.e. if the Lion and the Dragon both rank external threats as most important you would still expect their responses to be different). At the same time items that rank low for a faction might mean losing ground in that area, leaving something vulnerable, or not participating in certain story line points.

The key is to have a framework that gives equal story time to each area and each clan as a result, representing how the overall plot is impacting each of the "areas" and then focusing on the clans that focused in that area or not and the repercussions of those choices. Without revealing too much about what is going to happen ahead of time. When AEG announced the whole "transparency" thing I was disappointed, because complete transparency eliminates the ability to create good plots twist moments that are the hallmark of good story telling. That said the whole Naga wake up or go evil thing absolutely should have been communicated ahead of time, or at least hinted at.

Lastly, Allow for tournament wins to not be tied directly to the faction that won (at the winners discretion). I.e. if a player wins with a Crab deck, but wants the Victory to go to the Dragon, let that happen with the stipulation that the faction of the winning deck is ALSO, playing some major role in the particular plot point that event win represents. A dual win, or a major assist if you will.

Combined together, this would keep tournament performance from creating a situation where factional imbalance in the card game creates story time imbalance in the story plot. Which has been a sore point with just about every player at some point.

Anyway, just some thoughts on how to make this work, and not suck.

With all due respect, I don't think the Enlightened Keyword was much of a part of a problem - its mechanical impact was exceedingly limited, and at the time the Crane had a plethora of Enlightened cards, they *weren't* actually dominating the tourney scene. The Lotus tourney scene was dominated by Dragon-Ratlings-Unicorn, with the Mantis coming in later (after Test of Enlightenment).

It COULD have been part of the problem, but in the event, it was overshadowed by the toys given to other factions,so...

It is true, the enlightened Crane was more of a perceived thing than an actual thing, but the point is that sort of thing or even the appearance of such should be avoided. Card tournament wins should determine the when, and possibly the who of the story, but not necessarily the how or the why. And also shouldn't be linked to specific mechanical or material advantages in the card game, but rather to flavor. Which is, I think, what most of us are saying.

As another example, after "The Race" the Dragon starting with the favor was cool, but that also messed with the fundamental foundation of the game. Design did a good job balancing Dragon starting with the favor, but I personally feel like when it was taken away design didn't do quite as good a job maintaining that balance for Dragon without starting with the favor.

The point is that sort of thing is over the top, and in my opinion completely unnecessary, and part of why L5R has struggled. One of the other reasons, it has struggled is because of the constantly changing rules sets, but that is a topic for a different thread...

I tend to agree, though on the other hand, if the story dictates a fundamental change in a clan, that should probably be reflected in the game (but such changes should be made in collaboration with design, with mechanical balance foremost among considerations).

But in general, story tournament influence should *NOT* fundamentally change a clan.

AEG kind of dropped the ball, narratively, with the Crane being enlightened - it could have been an interesting change in the zeitgeist of the clan itself, the Crane traditionally not really caring for that sort of thing. Instead its impact was minimalized; the Jade Champion at the time, who was supposed to be at the epicenter of all this, didn't really do much to reflect his supposed enlightened status.

Also I seem to remember enlightenment/rings being fairly mechanically important at the time. I forget a lot of the cards involved, but I do remember a lot of players crying when I would blow up that sensei that counted as a ring with Kyoso.

That Kyoso Ring destruction effect was a sore subject with me. Not necessarily the interaction with the Sensei, but the idea that Rings could be gotten rid of like that. A single unique card completely negating a victory condition is always a terrible idea. Rings played by their own text should have been immune.

Aside, from a story perspective I felt like the elemental tournaments leading to "enlightened" personalities always felt wrong story wise. So from that perspective I am kind of glad they didn't do anything more with it, because it likely would have created other problems in the setting. water under the bridge now as they say...

The solution is you DON'T make the cards mutually exclusive.

Pretty much.

AEG got really, really dumb with how they handled stuff recently. You dont open up the choice to "pick anyone in your clan to do some random thing nobody really cares about" and expect people to not pick nonsensical stuff.

You go "Here's a group of 11 ronin. Top clan down, pick one of them to join you" at nationals / worlds, while having a plan on what do do with each character given the option, and why, specifically, there are 11.

Or at the kotei level, have the winner pick a clan for completing objective X (not the one they played, just the one they want to see get recognition) and the most points does X (and possibly, lower finishers do other things).

You dont go "Pick someone in the clan thats mechanically functioningthe best to do something random to someone you pick from some other clan you dont like for your choice of things to happen to them", do that 70+ times, and then go "well, we didnt think THAT one through, did we".

The thinking out how things work part comes before you do it, not the other way 'round.

The worst part for someone who plays the CCG and likes the story was Winter Court, where important things were determined by people playing their 3rd or 4th choice of clan (watching 3/4 of your delegation drop out a week in because PbPost is the worst format to do anything and them not actually caring about the clan they got assigned was really fun...), a GM who looked at private forums and handed out information to friends / people in the clan he liked so they would have advantages (theres a reason killing Renyu or corrupting his dog is a thing people wanted, and by Reggie's own admission, thats where it started) and general "look at my character, Doji Cat, she goes meow".

The worst part for someone who plays the CCG and likes the story was Winter Court, where important things were determined by people playing their 3rd or 4th choice of clan (watching 3/4 of your delegation drop out a week in because PbPost is the worst format to do anything and them not actually caring about the clan they got assigned was really fun...), a GM who looked at private forums and handed out information to friends / people in the clan he liked so they would have advantages (theres a reason killing Renyu or corrupting his dog is a thing people wanted, and by Reggie's own admission, thats where it started) and general "look at my character, Doji Cat, she goes meow".

While Winter Court admittedly had many issues, very much including those you mention, I'm going to disagree with the assertion that it was 'the worst part'. While crazy things can happen at Winter Court, they are at least mitigated by the large majority of players and GMs doing their best to play in good faith, in accordance with their best understanding of the setting... and it was always explicitly stated (at least at the two Winter Courts I played) that things could be de-canonised if they were deemed excessively setting-breaking, which is not a thing I ever recall happening with CCG results (certain picks could be put off-limits, eg Chiisai the elephant becoming Warlord of the Colonies, but anything that was left on the table was fair game, with often unfortunate results). Moreover, Winter Court was one of the very few ways players of the RPG - from all around the world, I might add - were able to influence the story, which is something I would hate to see disappear. I have no problem with card tournaments determining the bulk of player-driven outcomes (if that's something FFG decides to retain, which I hope they do), but I hope they retain Winter Court or something like it as well. Identify and fix as many of the problems as possible, yes, but don't throw the beautiful baby out with the bathwater.

Well, yeah, there was the corruption/collusion part of it too. AEG had a really hard time realizing that the story wasn't meant to be run for the benefit of their team and their friends. In the end I think it bit them in the ass.

Winter Court was both great fun, and one of the way of impacting the story that resulted in the least stupidity.

There were issues with each Winter court, but they seem to get overplayed to a grotesque level by CCG players and others who had no interest in Winter Court. Seems like Sour Grape over CCG losing some of its storyline influence to me,.

With FFG's tournament style, I'm going to bet L5R gets the usual 1 card designed by Worlds champion, and leave it at that.

But who knows.

Winter Court was both great fun, and one of the way of impacting the story that resulted in the least stupidity.

There were issues with each Winter court, but they seem to get overplayed to a grotesque level by CCG players and others who had no interest in Winter Court. Seems like Sour Grape over CCG losing some of its storyline influence to me,.

Well, it's more that your ability to alter the storyline based off of the CCG was merit-based. Via the RPG? Strongly based off of if you were in with the clique that was running the thing.

The bulk of what became canon at WC I for sure had everything to do with the skill and actions of amazing players - Dace was downright fantastic as Kaukatsu, and Kakita Yasuyo nearly single-handedly saved the Crane as Doji Jorihime after the fiasco brought about by the actions and choices of another player.. Neither of them did it by being in "cliques".

Pretending there was no merit, no skill, is a fat stinking load of manure, and an insult to the people who worked hard to affect the plotline at those events.

Favoritism and nepotism has been the name of the game for the people in charge of such things since the beginning, sadly. It's just a result of AEG's company ethics (i.e. a lack thereof).

So nice to see how much respect you have for the people who busted their rear end off in those.

EVEN if you were right, you're completely ignoring the merit of the people who actually played in the game because of flaws they had no control over ; AND you're throwing the baby off with the bathwater over what quite frankly appears to be personal sour grapes.

It's disgusting.

Was there a degree of favouritism in the Winter Courts in which I participated? It would be impossible to say there wasn't. Would it be better if there wasn't any? Of course. But that in no way detracts from the skill - and enormous effort - invested into the games by everyone involved. Not only were story outcomes frequently shaped by people with no discernible connection to any 'in-group', but the value of the games themselves was derived far more from people pouring their heart and soul into role-playing their characters - and often doing so with great talent, at which I can only stand in admiration - than from shiny stickers from the GM staff/Story Team, who gave up a ridiculous amount of their personal time to cater to a notoriously demanding (but otherwise wonderful) group of people over a period of months. Obviously it's nice when you get the breaks, but if that's why you're playing, you're doing it wrong.

Even if Winter Court had no story outcomes whatsoever - or was limited to, say, determining the Topaz Champion rather than the fate of the Empire - I would play it in a heartbeat, for the environment and for the role-play itself. For it to disappear entirely would be a great loss, in my opinion, to the IP and to FFG.

Oh, I don't think it should go away; I'd love to see it elevated to something I could respect.

I have to agree with Terraneaux, though for different reasons and it has mostly to do with who is allowed and not allowed to play winter court. The methods that they use has never done a good job at screening out people who will drop and people who have played it before also had a very good chance of getting in again. Also, this type of event is also not open to those with writing difficulties from things like dyslexia, roughly 10% of the population because of both the format and the method to gain access to play.

On top of this the event does not do much to help spread the product or the game, what it does do is reinforce the game for people who allready play. This is not helpful espcecially when you consider how much effor has to go into it, even if it is by volenteers.

If you are looking for something that really reaches out and engages the community, both new players and experienced one, the should go with something that actually engages the community of players and has a chance to engage people who are not allready interested in the games. Things such as LARPS at conventions, such as the one done at origins. Off Course they do need to make sure people know about these events.

Another thing that many of the Winter Court players have not really seamed to understand year after year is that unless it fits within the ongoing narative of the game their thing is unlikely to actually make cannon. Some people come to events with goals and try to achive them. Unless those Narative Align with the plot of the game they are not likely to be mentioned in a story and never be cannon outside the winter court event and if that is the case then it is likely that something will contradict them later

I have to agree with Terraneaux, though for different reasons and it has mostly to do with who is allowed and not allowed to play winter court. The methods that they use has never done a good job at screening out people who will drop and people who have played it before also had a very good chance of getting in again. Also, this type of event is also not open to those with writing difficulties from things like dyslexia, roughly 10% of the population because of both the format and the method to gain access to play.

On top of this the event does not do much to help spread the product or the game, what it does do is reinforce the game for people who allready play. This is not helpful espcecially when you consider how much effor has to go into it, even if it is by volenteers.

If you are looking for something that really reaches out and engages the community, both new players and experienced one, the should go with something that actually engages the community of players and has a chance to engage people who are not allready interested in the games. Things such as LARPS at conventions, such as the one done at origins. Off Course they do need to make sure people know about these events.

Another thing that many of the Winter Court players have not really seamed to understand year after year is that unless it fits within the ongoing narative of the game their thing is unlikely to actually make cannon. Some people come to events with goals and try to achive them. Unless those Narative Align with the plot of the game they are not likely to be mentioned in a story and never be cannon outside the winter court event and if that is the case then it is likely that something will contradict them later

I have to agree with Terraneaux, though for different reasons and it has mostly to do with who is allowed and not allowed to play winter court. The methods that they use has never done a good job at screening out people who will drop and people who have played it before also had a very good chance of getting in again. Also, this type of event is also not open to those with writing difficulties from things like dyslexia, roughly 10% of the population because of both the format and the method to gain access to play.

On top of this the event does not do much to help spread the product or the game, what it does do is reinforce the game for people who allready play. This is not helpful espcecially when you consider how much effor has to go into it, even if it is by volenteers.

If you are looking for something that really reaches out and engages the community, both new players and experienced one, the should go with something that actually engages the community of players and has a chance to engage people who are not allready interested in the games. Things such as LARPS at conventions, such as the one done at origins. Off Course they do need to make sure people know about these events.

Another thing that many of the Winter Court players have not really seamed to understand year after year is that unless it fits within the ongoing narative of the game their thing is unlikely to actually make cannon. Some people come to events with goals and try to achive them. Unless those Narative Align with the plot of the game they are not likely to be mentioned in a story and never be cannon outside the winter court event and if that is the case then it is likely that something will contradict them later

What about making it a sort of footnote rather than some sort of super important canon. I'm sure people would love to see flavor text that references their win or their clan's win.