The wording is pretty clear.

Rieekan doesn't even activate until after a ship is destroyed.

If that ship is still on the board when the other player gets tabled, that doesn't change the fact that it was destroyed, meeting all the criteria for points to be awarded.

You don't get points for removing a ship from the board, you get points for *destroying* ships.

Let's put it another way.

Am I tabled if my last ship is destroyed (the flagship obviously) but Rieekan is still active?

Here's a chicken and egg, if the ship that Rieekan is on is destroyed, does that ship get zombied till the end of the turn? Once you're destroyed, upgrade cards are inactive, so Rieekan doesn't trigger?

The wording is pretty clear.

Rieekan doesn't even activate until after a ship is destroyed.

If that ship is still on the board when the other player gets tabled, that doesn't change the fact that it was destroyed, meeting all the criteria for points to be awarded.

You don't get points for removing a ship from the board, you get points for *destroying* ships.

I disagree. It is not considered destroyed until the status phase. So it is still a live ship until then.

Let's put it another way.

Am I tabled if my last ship is destroyed (the flagship obviously) but Rieekan is still active?

This isn't correct.

The ship is very much destroyed the entire time. Rieekan, again, doesn't even come into effect until a ship is destroyed. It's left on the board and treated AS IF it weren't destroyed. It's still destroyed. It was destroyed immediately upon receiving the final damage card. Rieekan doesn't change, modify, or even delay this. The only thing he delays is the ship leaving play.

If all ships in a fleet are destroyed, the game immediately ends. You don't wait for the status phase, so yes, you are tabled.

They will probably need to clarify the victory condition after the game ends, since as of now it reads "The player with one or more ships remaining in the play area is the winner" and this could reasonably be both players now, even though the ship was destroyed, but the game still ends immediately upon destruction.

This is an interesting question. The most interesting I've seen raised about Rieekan. Not sure. His ability would seem to activate simultaneously with destruction, and technically cards aren't discarded until after the destruction registers, so.... hmmm... simultaneous effect rule would seem to indicate that Rieekan can keep himself kicking until the status phase.

The words "it is considered not destroyed" are very simple. Sure they have been destroyed but they are not treated as being destroyed. If they are not treated as being destroyed, they don't count.

Feel free to ask FFG. I am likely wrong again.

Here's a chicken and egg, if the ship that Rieekan is on is destroyed, does that ship get zombied till the end of the turn? Once you're destroyed, upgrade cards are inactive, so Rieekan doesn't trigger?

The words "it is considered not destroyed" are very simple. Sure they have been destroyed but they are not treated as being destroyed. If they are not treated as being destroyed, they don't count.

Feel free to ask FFG. I am likely wrong again.

They are very simple indeed.

Unfortunately, they don't appear on the card you're referencing.

The words "it is considered not destroyed" are very simple. Sure they have been destroyed but they are not treated as being destroyed. If they are not treated as being destroyed, they don't count.

Feel free to ask FFG. I am likely wrong again.

They are very simple indeed.

Unfortunately, they don't appear on the card you're referencing.

Considered and treated as are pretty synonymous, and its really stretching hairs to argue a difference between the two. FFG has ruled two separate ways with this in the past considering fels wrath, which is nearly identical in wording. How this falls will be entirely up to FFG, it could well be if the riekken play is tabled but manages to table his opponent in the same turn its a 5-5 draw, or a riekkin win. (The current fels wrath FAQ would result in a 5-5, the previous one a riekken win)

The words "it is considered not destroyed" are very simple. Sure they have been destroyed but they are not treated as being destroyed. If they are not treated as being destroyed, they don't count.

Feel free to ask FFG. I am likely wrong again.

They are very simple indeed.

Unfortunately, they don't appear on the card you're referencing.

Considered and treated as are pretty synonymous, and its really stretching hairs to argue a difference between the two. FFG has ruled two separate ways with this in the past considering fels wrath, which is nearly identical in wording. How this falls will be entirely up to FFG, it could well be if the riekken play is tabled but manages to table his opponent in the same turn its a 5-5 draw, or a riekkin win. (The current fels wrath FAQ would result in a 5-5, the previous one a riekken win)

I don't know how this could possibly be any clearer. The ship is destroyed. The only thing Rieekan does is delay the "remove the ship from the board" step that occurs after it is destroyed, and allow it to activate if it hasn't already. His ability doesn't even activate until this happens, and it happens IMMEDIATELY upon receipt of damage cards equaling hull value.

Nobody is splitting hairs. If something is treated "as if" it's not destroyed, that doesn't have any effect on whether or not the ship IS destroyed.

The least clear aspect of this is how it interacts with the winning condition, since that depends on which player has ships on the board. This will need to be clarified one way or the other. Does a game end when all ships are destroyed, or when all ships leave the board? Is the winning player the one with ships on the board, or the one with undestroyed ships? I've already sent off an email to get word on that.

Regardless, as the rules stand now, the game ends when all ships are destroyed, no matter how you're treating them.

Sure, but its not treated until the end of the turn. So if your calculating MOV, it never officially finished being destroyed. It's exactly how fels wrath works in x-wing, if he's the last ship and dies, he still gets a turn to potentially win the game, (draw now due to the FAQ clarifying that, which isn't a gaurentee in armada as its a different game)

Riekken just makes all your ships and elite squadrons turn into fels wrath, which without FAQ would work exactly as me and lyraeus are saying

$.02

I'm down for an official ruling. If you can still activate and use the dial/tokens and everything like a live ship, why is the Engineering command any less useable than the Concentrate Firepower or Squadron commands?

$.02

I'm down for an official ruling. If you can still activate and use the dial/tokens and everything like a live ship, why is the Engineering command any less useable than the Concentrate Firepower or Squadron commands?

Because:

$.02

I'm down for an official ruling. If you can still activate and use the dial/tokens and everything like a live ship, why is the Engineering command any less useable than the Concentrate Firepower or Squadron commands?

Because:

$.02

I'm down for an official ruling. If you can still activate and use the dial/tokens and everything like a live ship, why is the Engineering command any less useable than the Concentrate Firepower or Squadron commands?

Because:

Possibly the best comment in recent days!

As currently worded, I honestly don't know what is intended.

1 - A ship gets destroyed.

2 - Riekaan tells you that you don't count as destroyed until the status phase: "When a friendly ship or a friendly unique squadron (because screw off, scrubs) is destroyed, it remains in the play area and is treated as if it was not destroyed until the end of the Status Phase."

3 - Destroyed is "A ship is destroyed when it has damage cards equaling or exceeding its hull value."

So if we get to the status phase and you have repaired and no longer have damage cards equaling or exceeding the hull value of the ship, are you still destroyed? You don't meet the definition of the condition anymore, but conversely, I can see an argument that Riekaan merely delays it, not allows reversal of the condition. As in, when you get "destroyed", even if you repair, are you always destroyed like a bell that cannot be un-rung?

This is why I think he will genuinely need an FAQ. I can see a RAW argument in either direction, which is the classic situation where one definitely needs an FAQ or everyone will do it differently. As in, if you asked me honestly what the RAI was from FFG with 95% confidence or more, I really don't even know here.

$.02

I'm down for an official ruling. If you can still activate and use the dial/tokens and everything like a live ship, why is the Engineering command any less useable than the Concentrate Firepower or Squadron commands?

Because:

Possibly the best comment in recent days!

I don't know. . . ficklegreendice's reference to the Assault Frigate as Zoidberg

That or the timely NOOOOOOO in the first time playing thread. Shoot then move!!!

As currently worded, I honestly don't know what is intended.

1 - A ship gets destroyed.

2 - Riekaan tells you that you don't count as destroyed until the status phase: "When a friendly ship or a friendly unique squadron (because screw off, scrubs) is destroyed, it remains in the play area and is treated as if it was not destroyed until the end of the Status Phase."

3 - Destroyed is "A ship is destroyed when it has damage cards equaling or exceeding its hull value."

So if we get to the status phase and you have repaired and no longer have damage cards equaling or exceeding the hull value of the ship, are you still destroyed? You don't meet the definition of the condition anymore, but conversely, I can see an argument that Riekaan merely delays it, not allows reversal of the condition. As in, when you get "destroyed", even if you repair, are you always destroyed like a bell that cannot be un-rung?

This is why I think he will genuinely need an FAQ. I can see a RAW argument in either direction, which is the classic situation where one definitely needs an FAQ or everyone will do it differently. As in, if you asked me honestly what the RAI was from FFG with 95% confidence or more, I really don't even know here.

I'm reading that so that "until the end of the status phase" is the duration of the effect. That's how long we treat it as if it is not destroyed. At the end of the duration, the effect ends. No check for "Is it still destroyed," because no effect can "un-destroy" a ship. We are simply treating it as if it is not.

This would, IMO, forbid the ressurection of ships. It would allow, however, the dead ship to table the other guy, because the ship is treated as if it's not destroyed, thus not triggering the end condition. I understand the argument that Tvayumat is making, but I think he is wrong. He is not treating the ship as if it is not destroyed.

Of course, the only way the table-after-death can even be considered is if the good general works on himself. I'm unsure about that one, honestly. I think I have to lean very slightly twords "no, he dosn't work on himself," because his power dosn't trigger until he is removed from play. But I would be willing to consider an argument allong the lines of pre-cognition, or similar.

His ability triggers before you remove the ship though. So he is not out of play until removed from the play area.

His ability triggers before you remove the ship though. So he is not out of play until removed from the play area.

We have no idea if this is true or not.

The ship is destroyed prior to his ability activating, and all upgrade cards on destroyed ships are inactive per the RRG.

So let me ask you this. If you pick the ship up to remove it from play, because it is destroyed, you have to set it back down again.

He also says "friendly ship". That means all your ships

So let me ask you this. If you pick the ship up to remove it from play, because it is destroyed, you have to set it back down again.

He also says "friendly ship". That means all your ships

That's not a question so much as a statement of dubious interpretation.

So let me ask you this. If you pick the ship up to remove it from play, because it is destroyed, you have to set it back down again.

He also says "friendly ship". That means all your ships

That's not a question so much as a statement of dubious interpretation.

You do agree that he is an upgrade on his own ship correct?

If so you will agree that if they mentioned to affect other ships not his own they could have put the word "other" correct?

Will you agree that his ability is a replacement effect that replaces the standard effect of the destroyed effect?

As per the "Effect use and Timing" rules in page 5 of the RRG

• A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

If you can agree that his ability is a replacement effect then you should be able to agree that he affects the ship he is in.

I think this card needs a clarification from FFG.

I see how it can work either way because of the way it's worded

In addition, per the RRG, you can suffer damage beyond the hull amount. I can't see any reason why a ship should suffer damage beyond the hull value unless there is something like Riekan who can allow a ship to remain in play so that it could potentially repair itself to less than damage equaling hull.

RRG page 5: Destroyed ships and squadrons

A ship is destroyed when it has damage cards equaling or exceeding its hull value. A squadron is destroyed when it is reduced to zero hull points.

I find it interesting that there is a difference between a ship and a squadron. What purpose would there be to allow a ship go exceed it's hull value but not a squadron? I believe upgrade cards such as motti and now riekan and possibly others in the future.

Probably he works on himself.

He definitely probably doesn't allow Zombie revival.

I think... If his Zombie ship is the last ship left and kills the enemy, then it'll be a 5-5 split (objective points notwithstanding) because in that case, all ships have been destroyed.

That's what I'd like to see.

So let me ask you this. If you pick the ship up to remove it from play, because it is destroyed, you have to set it back down again.

He also says "friendly ship". That means all your ships

That's not a question so much as a statement of dubious interpretation.

Not really.

You do agree that he is an upgrade on his own ship correct?

If so you will agree that if they mentioned to affect other ships not his own they could have put the word "other" correct?

Will you agree that his ability is a replacement effect that replaces the standard effect of the destroyed effect?

As per the "Effect use and Timing" rules in page 5 of the RRG

• A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

If you can agree that his ability is a replacement effect then you should be able to agree that he affects the ship he is in.

I'm willing to stipulate to all that, except the "replacement" part, and I'm still unsure about "at the moment."

He absolutly affects his own ship, PROVIDED that his ability kicks in before he is removed from play.

I would entierly fail to support 5-5 split, on the grounds that "all ships have been destroyed." The Zombie is not treated as destroyed until the end of the status phase. At the moment the last enemy ship was destroyed, the Zombie is treated as still in play.