A player has a CF token on his ship, then reveals a CF dial.

He makes his first attack, then decides to spend his CF dial to get another die. After rolling the die, he decides to use his CF token to reroll a die. His opponent stops him from doing so because he did not declare using his CF token alongside his dial and doing so now would mean he's resolving the CF attack twice. Is this correct? Basically, what the opponent wanted was that the attacking player declare use of BOTH dial and token before he rolled another dice, and therefore the attacking player would either be forced to use the token even if he did not need it and thus, lose the token.

I'm a bit fuzzy on this one as I can't find anything on the RRG....

A player has Engine Techs and Wulff on a Gladiator with a Navigate token. He's resolved a CF command this turn.

He moves his ship, then decides to use his Navigate token to trigger Engine Techs and use Wulff so he keeps his Navigate token. His opponent stops him from doing so because he did not declare using his Navigate token BEFORE moving his ship (Determine Course step). Basically, the opponent wanted the active player to declare the use of the Navigate token (and Wulff) before moving and if he did not need to use Engine Techs, well, his Wulff has been exhausted anyway.

I think this is correct as per p.11 RRG

Thoughts?

He has to decide the moment he uses the CF dial or token if he is using the alternate at the same time. He can't split them up when he uses one.

He would have to decide if he was going to use it in the determine course step. He can't wait till after the initial move

On the CF, technically the defender is correct, however everyone plays it as "I'm using CF to add a die, *roll*, I'm using CF token to reroll die X, *reroll*". It's still the same phase of the same attack, so CF is somewhat being resolved in the same timing. Fly casual and all...

A more annoying kind of timing shenanigans is going on with evade tokens rerolls, where people declare the evade first, then declare other defense tokens after the reroll has happened. This is extremely frustrating when facing a rebel Mon Mothma fleet, as it allows for way more flexibility with defense tokens than I believe was intended.

On the nav issue you're correct, the token would have had to be declared before moving the ship, as the nav order can only resolve in the first step. Keeping Wulf exhausted after denying the maneuver seems a bit harsh although of minimal effect. Again, the motto is fly casual..

On the CF, technically the defender is correct, however everyone plays it as "I'm using CF to add a die, *roll*, I'm using CF token to reroll die X, *reroll*". It's still the same phase of the same attack, so CF is somewhat being resolved in the same timing. Fly casual and all...

A more annoying kind of timing shenanigans is going on with evade tokens rerolls, where people declare the evade first, then declare other defense tokens after the reroll has happened. This is extremely frustrating when facing a rebel Mon Mothma fleet, as it allows for way more flexibility with defense tokens than I believe was intended.

On the nav issue you're correct, the token would have had to be declared before moving the ship, as the nav order can only resolve in the first step. Keeping Wulf exhausted after denying the maneuver seems a bit harsh although of minimal effect. Again, the motto is fly casual..

The Evade 'trick' is, however, perfectly legal, as per FFG ruling. The token spending is not.

Spending the CF token after is plain wrong. The point of the this particular rule is to provide a risk and reward system. It is another one of those choices that actually make this game tons of fun.

As for the Evade thing. That was asked to FFG and they told we are allowed to wait and see.

Spending the CF token after is plain wrong. The point of the this particular rule is to provide a risk and reward system. It is another one of those choices that actually make this game tons of fun.

As for the Evade thing. That was asked to FFG and they told we are allowed to wait and see.

Exactly.

Having the ability to wait and see if you need the re-roll could be a big advantage.

If you'd like to be super-courteous player: make sure you ask you opponent if he'd like to spend his token as well. that way there can be no doubt.

Spending the CF token after is plain wrong. The point of the this particular rule is to provide a risk and reward system. It is another one of those choices that actually make this game tons of fun.

As for the Evade thing. That was asked to FFG and they told we are allowed to wait and see.

Exactly.

Having the ability to wait and see if you need the re-roll could be a big advantage.

If you'd like to be super-courteous player: make sure you ask you opponent if he'd like to spend his token as well. that way there can be no doubt.

It is a risk assessment kind of thing.

I would always rather potentially put myself at a disadvantage and avoid an argument before the decisions are made. Pointing out timing technicalities after dice hit the table just makes you seem petty. Before hand you seem petty but at least you aren't a sore loser. :-)

My bad about the evade token, I wasn't aware of that ruling.

The deal is the same though. In both case, no phase change.

You can wait to see the evade token effect before you decide to use other defense tokens or not, why wouldn't you be able to wait until your CF die is rolled to decide if you use the token or not?

My bad about the evade token, I wasn't aware of that ruling.

The deal is the same though. In both case, no phase change.

You can wait to see the evade token effect before you decide to use other defense tokens or not, why wouldn't you be able to wait until your CF die is rolled to decide if you use the token or not?

Because the rules specifically state both command - dial and token - must be spent at the same time.

My bad about the evade token, I wasn't aware of that ruling.

The deal is the same though. In both case, no phase change.

You can wait to see the evade token effect before you decide to use other defense tokens or not, why wouldn't you be able to wait until your CF die is rolled to decide if you use the token or not?

Because the rules specifically state both command - dial and token - must be spent at the same time.

You do have to state you spend both CF dial and token at the same time, but once stated you can throw the extra dice first and then choose which dice to reroll, including the one just added.

I can read the FAQ, and I've been made aware of the evade token ruling (anyone has a link btw?).

All I'm saying is they're being spent at the same time since it's the same attack step of "modifying dice", there's just a reroll in between. At least in the same way that all defense tokens are being spent at the same time in the same phase "use defense tokens," with, guess what, a reroll in between. Risk vs reward you said?

Modifying dice step : Declare CF command > reroll > use token or not. (Don't do that, it's cheating!)

Spending defense tokens step : Declare Evade token > reroll > use other tokens or not. (Go ahead, nothing to see here)

It is like activating a squadron dial, not getting enough damage with your activated squadrons and then using the squadron token to push the extra damage.

The reason why this is there is because it 1) keeps the commands the same in use, 2) it is part of the risk and reward system.

As opposed to the evade token ruling which 1) does not keep defense tokens the same in use 2) entirely takes out the risk and reward system.

Defense tokens don't have seperate parts to them. The only wait and see is the evade. The reason for this is because it is resolved in the spend defense tokens phase of the attack step. All the others are not.

Now if you had a defense command that had to be used at the same time as a dial or something then yea you would be right

Anyone care to point me to a page ref on the RRG or FAQ? I'm happy enough with the Engine Tech + Wulff issue but the CF token/dial issue is still needing backup.

Basically, the issue here is if the player did not declare use of token when he uses his dial, can he still use it (token) on the same attack after he rolls the extra dice from the CF dial?

While I would say "yes" on a Fly Casual event, I don't think the Sullust one will be as casual as everyone hopes.

There is no need for a FAQ, it's in the rules. You spend the tokens and dials at the same time.

It's like a navigation dial and token, both have to be spent in the determine course step. You can't move then use the token to increase speed. That is decided before locking the tool in. Same ruling for the Concentrate Fire dial and token. Those decisions are made right then, if you wasted the token in the process that is part of how it goes.

• A ship cannot resolve the same command more than once per round.

• A ship can spend both a command dial and a command token to combine their effects. Doing so counts as a single resolution of the command. For example, a ship can increase its speed twice by spending a M command dial and a M command token.

Page 4 of the RRG.

You have to combine the token and the dial to spend it or else it is considered 2 uses of the command.

A player has a CF token on his ship, then reveals a CF dial.

He makes his first attack, rolls dice. [Roll Attack Dice]

He declares he will use his CF dial. [Resolve Attack Effects, Modify Dice]

He adds one die, rolls it.

----------------- > at this point, can he spend his CF token?

Note that he did not declare using it during the Resolve Attack Effects, Modify Dice step.

Answers I've come across:

Yes, because he is still in the attack phase wherein he spent his CF token. This is technically combining the CF dial (spent earlier) and the CF token (spent now), so it counts as one resolution of that command, combining their effects.

No, because he did not declare using the token when he declared using the dial.

Personally, I would say "No" because he did not declare using the token. If he had declared using both dial and token, then he has two effects that kick in at the same time so he can add a die then reroll, or reroll and add a die. But since he only declared using the dial, the Resolve Attack Effects, Modify Dice step was over as soon as he rolled the die.

Thoughts?

No, as it states in the RRG when you spend a dial, to use the token you have to combine them.

That means you declare to use the dial and token at one time. If you split them then they are seperate commands.

You have to declare what you are doing. If you declare that you are using the dial but dont declare to use the token then the token can not be added on to. That is part of the game. That unknown information.

A player has a CF token on his ship, then reveals a CF dial.

He makes his first attack, rolls dice. [Roll Attack Dice]

He declares he will use his CF dial. [Resolve Attack Effects, Modify Dice]

He adds one die, rolls it.

----------------- > at this point, can he spend his CF token?

Note that he did not declare using it during the Resolve Attack Effects, Modify Dice step.

Answers I've come across:

Yes, because he is still in the attack phase wherein he spent his CF token. This is technically combining the CF dial (spent earlier) and the CF token (spent now), so it counts as one resolution of that command, combining their effects.

No, because he did not declare using the token when he declared using the dial.

Personally, I would say "No" because he did not declare using the token. If he had declared using both dial and token, then he has two effects that kick in at the same time so he can add a die then reroll, or reroll and add a die. But since he only declared using the dial, the Resolve Attack Effects, Modify Dice step was over as soon as he rolled the die.

Thoughts?

You can roll the dice and then decide to spend the CF dial and/or token.

But you must decide what's it going to be before rolling any more.

And yes, this could lead to situations where you:

A) just use the dial and regret it since you could really use a re-roll

or

B) you use both and regret it, because you don't want to re-roll and the token is wasted

Personally, I would say "No" because he did not declare using the token. If he had declared using both dial and token, then he has two effects that kick in at the same time so he can add a die then reroll, or reroll and add a die. But since he only declared using the dial, the Resolve Attack Effects, Modify Dice step was over as soon as he rolled the die.

Thoughts?

On this part, i'd say the attack effects, modify dice step is NOT over as soon as he rolled the die because you can still modify the extra CF die with a card for example.

Personally, I would say "No" because he did not declare using the token. If he had declared using both dial and token, then he has two effects that kick in at the same time so he can add a die then reroll, or reroll and add a die. But since he only declared using the dial, the Resolve Attack Effects, Modify Dice step was over as soon as he rolled the die.

Thoughts?

On this part, i'd say the attack effects, modify dice step is NOT over as soon as he rolled the die because you can still modify the extra CF die with a card for example.

They can't go:

Roll Attack, modify with CF dial (has not declared his use of the token), use Darth Vader, then use the CF token.

He could do the above if he declared to use the token at the same time he spent the dial.

That's not quite right Lyraeus... Vader can't be used in between the CF effects.

It all breaks down like this...

You get to use Concentrate fire once.

You must spend a dial and/or token as the cost.

You then resolve the effect of that concentrate fire, dependant on whether you spent dial and or token.

I'd you spent both the toke and the dial the effect has two parts that can be resolved in any order, reroll a dice and then roll an extra die OR roll an extra die then a reroll a die.

You cannot resolve any other card effects in between these two interactions because you are resolving a single effect with the CF, it just has two parts and you must finish them both before moving on to you next card.