My partner and I just completed a game against Ghatanothoa.

The final battle is set up that each time you fight Ghatanothoa, you lose one movement point.

I had four movement points on my investigator card, but also had the motorcycle.

We were unsure of ourselves, so my partner suggested I use the two additional points granted by the motorcycle.

That gave me six movement points.

Unfortunately, they were not enough. Ghatanothoa cooked both of us, and the monster won.

Here is my question. When fighting Ghatanothoa, can we include an additional couple of points from the motorcycle, or -- for example -- one point from the Map of Arkham, when we calculate how many movement points we are starting with?

Comment: One element that hurts in this match-up is to always subtract one hit from one's damage to Ghatanothoa. In other words, you get four hits in your roll, but you can credit only three of them. We would have done much better without this limitation.

I am sure that if I ever fight Ghatanothoa again, I will try to have a blessing. This may have made a difference in the final battle.

Just for the record, Ghatanothoa awakened based on the deep one tokens placed on the Innsmouth board -- which result from gates unable to be opened because they are sealed. So it is nice to know that this feature of the game occasionally has some result.

In answering my main question, above, I would be glad to know if anyone is aware of what fictional work Ghatanothoa comes from.

Glasgow Scotland said:

The extra movement points would help,,, but you never get the chance to use them. When the Final Battle starts, the ordinary turn structure is replaced with the combat rounds against the Ancient One. You don't get a 'Movement' phase, which means you can't ever exhaust the Motorcycle to gain the extra movement points.

As for Ghathanathoa's origins... like many of the unnameable elder gods, a very vague idea was made up by Lovecraft but it was only later authors who really fleshed out the concept. In this case, I think Ghathanathoa was mostly the brainchild of Lin Carter, who wrote a story called The Thing in the Pit.

If you can't spend the movement points from the motorcycle or map of Arkham because there isn't a movement phase, then why can you spend movement points derived from your speed?

Awww...we figured you do get the motorcycle movement points. That made for some hilarious final battles where you'd picture your character riding away on his bike while everyone else gets devoured.

Would the map of Arkham item count? I think it just flat out gives you +1 movement.

arachnidshadow9 said:

Yep, this is what I went with in my only G final combat. Otherwise, everyone gets 1 attack, then dies as you don't get movement points except in the Movement Phase, so your Speed doesn't matter if you go by the strict interpretation of the phases.

I'm going to say that things that bolster movement points work in final combat. Otherwise, the sheet could have just said, "speed." If Ghatanothoa's attack is literally chasing you down with his ugly face, then I don't see why having a motorcycle wouldn't help.

I disagree... There is no reason to think that there is a movement phase in combat. There never has been. If you want a clarification, it should be asked for in the FAQ, but in the meanwhile, playing by the rules, no one should have more turns against Ghat than their max speed.

Avi_dreader said:

But G doesn't attack against your Speed, he requires you to spend movement points. Speed = movement points only in the Movement Phase.

A design flaw. Clearly whats intended is that for this final battle investigators actually get movement points. Given that, the items can probably be used too even though technically there is no movement phase.

Ghatanothua comes from Mu. He sank with it about 162, 000 years BC. Its first mentioned in Lovecraft and Healds "Out of the Aeons". Carter says more in "The Thing in the Pit". I think Colin Wilson talks about the Lloigor connection in "Return of the Lloigor".

Thanks for this great discussion.

Let me remind everyone that there are several speed enhancers we mentioned the motorcycle and map of arkham, but don't forget Ruby of Rlyeh. That adds two movement points. I have not gone through the skill deck, but I would not be surprised if there's a skill out there that enhances movement, since there's a skill to enhance almost every other quality of the investigator.

I am not going to disagree with the fellow who indicated there's no movement phase, so there can be no movement, etc.

However, there has to be an upkeep phase, right? Otherwise, weapons that are exhausted cannot be refreshed. Items mentioned above such as the motorcycle are refreshed during the upkeep phase. So if they undergo upkeep and refreshment, it is illogical that they can be used by the player? Otherwise, why exhaust and refresh them?

Who is the FFG moderator at the present time? I used to be Kevin at one point. Perhaps Kevin could wade in on this one.

Let me tell you folks, Ghatanothoa is very tough and very difficult to take out especially in a two-player game. With too many additional restrictions placed on the players, he would be almost impossible for two investigators to take out. Perhaps those currently using items that add movement points example, motorcycle should house-rule this to their advantage.

Reminds me of a witty comment one forum member made about the extreme difficulty of a few of the new Innsmouth GOO's he said, "they might as well be Azothoth." I liked that. For newbies who don't know Azathoth, there really is no final combat if Azathoth awakens the Earth is destroyed and the game ends, with players all losing.

Taking some of these Innsmouth GOO's and going for an extreme harsh interpretation of every rule, they are going to be Azathoth equivalents.

Question: For a monster like Ghatanothoa, would the likelihood of defeating him increase with more investigators in the game?

Glasgow Scotland said:

So you can save a slower investigator on one turn, then, when that investigator is guaranteed to die, say Speed 3 + Motor Cycle (+2 move), but would need to spend 6 points, trade Motor Cycle to an investigator with Speed 4+ .

Glasgow Scotland said:

Ghatanothoa is not a monster, don't try that Red Sign of Shudde M'ell crap in final combat . 1 investigator is the easiest as always. Not sure how the math works regarding the -1 hit per investigator (since 0-1 hits are still 0 and all that).

I think I'm with Tibs on this one. The singling out of movement points as the mechanic for G's fight seem to imply that relevant movement boosting items help.

About red sign, I thinnk that using up a sanity and one of your hands for casting is more than a fair exchange for a max of +5 to combat checks with a carbine rifle or something. Which is *if* you happen to have one, and *if* said AO has phys immunity, and *if* you don't have something better anyway. If AO's don't count as monsters, I dunno what does.

I'm not claiming that there can be no movement because there's no movement phase. Perhaps I need to make my point slightly more explicit for you. Items like Map, Motorcycle, Ruby, etc. all exhaust during the movement phase. Since the final battle has no movement phase, I would argue that the items can not be exhausted.

@ Dam. Hmmm... You do recieve your movement points during the movement phase. Consequently, if there were no movement phase during the final battle there would be no way for any investigator to survive the first turn... Hooray for another badly designed Arkham Horror card! Until there is official clarification, I'm going to play as if movement items are legitimate; however, I think this question should definitely be asked.

Glasgow Scotland said:

I don't think movement points should be able to be spent (tomes), even though they are counted for Ghatanothoa's attack. This should be clarified as well.

Avi_dreader said:

True dat.

I had forgotten about the problem that you don't gain movement points except in the movement phase, however. This came up against Ghatanathoa once we decided to just ignore the problem since it's pretty clear how it's meant to work.

There are a few options for how you could 'house rule' this one: you could a 'movement phase' after the upkeep during the Final Battle, but this would create more confusion that it would remove, since obviously no-one could actually move during the FB anyway. And there's already been enough discussion about whether investigators are "in the same location" during the battle.

OR you could say that phase restrictions on items no longer apply during the Final Battle, but I think that's also asking for trouble - and it will change the effects and merits of some spells quite dramatically.

The problem really needs to be addressed by tinkering with the wording on Ghathanathoa's attack, not by messing the structure of the Final Battle itself. You can just assume that players gain Movement points equal to their speed when Gh attacks, or I guess the attack could just reduce each player's Speed by 1 permanently (which would have almost exactly the same effect I think, although it's clumsier).

Glasgow Scotland said:

Never mind "has to be an upkeep" - there IS an upkeep; it's mentioned in the rulebook. And KevinW has said on these forums that it's a full upkeep step, in which all the same things take place as would during the normal game.

The fact that an item CAN be refreshed during the FB upkeep is not a sign that the item in question is meant to be useful against the Ancient One! There are plenty of items which are totally useless in the Final Battle, but which can get refreshed during FB upkeeps as normal. The Motorcycle was presumably restricted to being used in the Movement Phase specifically so that players wouldn't think they could gain and use movement points at inappropriate times. And the Final Battle might have been regarded as just such an inappropriate time.

How is Ghatan easier with more investigators? With the exception of ancient ones that automatically devour someone every turn (Zhar, Atlach, etc.), final combat has always been easier the fewer investigators there are. Less chance for dead weight, more trophies/clues per investigator.

That was me who made the Azathoth comment! Me me mememememeeeeee!

Actually I think Ghatan is one of the more reasonable ones. In fact he's downright hilarious. His slumber ability is some great tense risk/reward fun, and it's great imagining you speeding away on your bike from his gaping mouth (which is why we allow bikes to be used against him, it's just more FUN). I'd say he's about on par with Cthulhu for final combat difficulty. Not impossible, but tough.

GrooveChamp said:

Hmmmm... not sure I agree there. While there is less chance for dead weight, you've also had fewer opportunities to create a character who will find the final battle disproportionately easy.

GrooveChamp said:

Damnit, was it? I thought it was me, but I was too modest to say so! (Probably just as well, in hindsight). I think that I jokingly said that Quachil Uttaus's final battle is slightly harder than Azathoth's.

More to the point... Ghatanathoa's final battle is a very unpredictable one. If you draw his first Sinister Plot quite early on, and it's the one which "resets the clock", it can be one of the easiest final battles.

(Also, generally speaking, I think -6 and no resistances is usually less of a pain than a very resistant/immune AO, because any random set of weapons is still reasonably likely to give you something whcih can hurt him, which means that shopping for items during the game is more efficient and you'll end up better equipped for the same investment of time.)

All of the Innsmouth AOs have attacks that don't have anything to do with a Skill Check. If there's a roll at all, it isn't against any Investigator Skill. That's why Ghatanothoa isn't pitted against your Speed directly.

Well, I thought this was pretty simple, but AH interpretation is indeed infinite. The way I see it, every round you check to see how many movement points you would be granted if it were a movement phase. If you have enough to pay off the Ghata attack, you live. Next round, you might not. If cards are allowed for this, I would say the Motorcycle, Map, and Ruby count...but then, I'm the guy that fended off Rhan-Tegoth with Food before I was told I couldn't.

I don't think you get all your movement points once at the beginning of the Final Battle, as like into a pool, and pay off from what's left in that pool in subsequent rounds. And to those who say that having Glasgow's 6 movement points (to last 7 rounds) is too much...well, that's why Ghata removes one success from EVERY roll. And really, all those slow Investigators will only last 4 rounds (without help); that's not really much different than Chaugnar Faugn.